Anti-vaxx, masks, Covid, freedom, 5G etc

[eagleron]

Horrible scenes. We have been very lucky here in Australia in comparison

Being an island nation has its rewards

 

[Little Grubber Kick]

Responding with a general answer, but thanks to Simon, SER8 and Woodsie for their considered responses. Having read your responses I’ll speak again against lockdowns, masks and medical coercion.

It might be said: we should have drawn the line at seatbelts; if we had done we may not be here today. Personally, I believe the idea of protecting others by not breathing on them should remain a social concept, not a legal one. Once we cross that line, it opens the path to a very dystopian future.

Does that sound hyperbolic? And yet that is precisely what lockdowns and mask mandates are controlling. Crossing this line moves us toward a biosecurity paradigm. The question is, does the current situation actually warrant this?

Simon mentions a guy wanting to get a steak. And of course I believe someone should be able to get a steak if he wants, but this type of argument attempts to minimise the very real societal damage that lockdowns do. While the billionaires multiply their wealth many times over, and educated professionals work from home, the real brunt of the damage is felt by service workers, the unemployed, the self-employed, and small and medium sized business. As many businesses go under, who steps in to take their place? Corporations, who have the capital to weather the storm and the insider channels to government support.

While I personally think it’s naïve to think that those ultra-rich and connected individuals with the greatest agency to enact their will only ever do so by legal means, or if not legal, at least using clear steps that are easy for the common person to discern, speculation of such matters is unnecessary when assessing the costs and benefits of the interventions.

With regard to masks, we now have abundant data from pretty much every country on the planet. There is no correlation between mask compliance and the spread of the virus. Early in the pandemic, there was a meme around that we know masks work because countries with a natural tendency to wear masks seemed to have lower case levels. That’s no longer true. For example Thailand has high mask compliance and rapid spread. South Korea has almost total mask compliance and is apparently getting a new wave. In regional side by side analysis a different US states with and without mask mandates the curves are remarkably similar. There is no discernable ‘signal’ in the data anywhere to see an effect after mandates have been introduced or relaxed. To say WHO says they are effective is not a satisfactory argument. It’s a logical fallacy called appeal to authority. There are numerous studies on the effects of face masks to reduce respiratory infection by the general public, see some of the main ones collected here: Are Face Masks Effective? The Evidence.

I’d also like to add on masks: In my opinion it’s self-evident that they don’t work and the reasons why seem obvious. Firstly (and crucially) most of the air passes around and through the mask. But going deeper; what moisture that is captured by the mask quick evaporates due to the temperature of the face. In a sick person this moisture could include larger droplets. Once the moisture has evaporated, the smaller particles may even be blown away from the mask, the mask having effectively nebulized the larger droplets (which would have fallen to the ground) into a longer lasting aerosol.

It might surprise you to know the fatality rate of covid is not 2 or 3% but 0.2 or 0.3%. Here is a detailed global study from WHO’s own website: https://www.who.int/bulletin/online_first/BLT.20.265892.pdf It’s 0.05% in under 70s

Lastly, vaccines. Touchy subject. Personally I would prefer not to take a medical intervention if I think it is unwarranted. I’ve taken vaccines in the past, but I’m uncomfortable with this particular situation. The vaccines are new technology. Especially the mRNA ones. There’s some risk associated with the spike proteins. I think it’s a personal choice. This is why I mentioned the principle of informed consent in the previous post. I personally believe, according to the evidence, that the dangers of covid 19 have been exaggerated by the media and governments of the world (again, speculating why is irrelevant to my argument). As such my risk assessment is: don’t take the vaccine. I really hope it doesn’t come to full vaccine passport segregation in our society, but if it does we are on a frightening road. Consider reading this account, by an educated German, about how the totalitarian situation evolved in Germany bit by bit. How he became a NAZI basically. It’s really very, very interesting. We all have our own cognitive biases and you may not see the same things as me. But I unfortunately see some similarities to the current situation. They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer, an excerpt, 2017 edition

swung by to see if this deteriorated as expected and sure enough......
but thanks for your eloquent attempts to set the record straight.

I'm sure you are probably aware that you've hit a CIBSmsm employee, but hey they got to make a living, some choose not to do it that way.

most importantly, I feel vindicated in suggesting it was a mistake of the moderators to allow this to continue on the RUGBY LEAGUE FORUM for so long.........because after all who wants to talk footy to a ignorant socialist numpty? Time will tell I suppose.

Good luck, we are all going to need it.

 

[eagleron]

PM definitively in hindsight made a judgement in error. These new vaccine variants seem interesting, did know much about them until i started reading up a little more. I'm getting my Pfzier shot today. I'm 41, have been on a waiting list for a few months. Getting second jab in August.

What type of vaccine are you getting for your second shot? Seems the astra variant losses its efficiency more than any other type. I can definitely see everyone needing booster shots going forward and more efficient types of vaccines being developed to counter the virus which which will most probably continue to mutate?. Interesting times ahead. Just got to do your best to stay safe for now.

I'm unfortunately in the age group deemed astrazenica only at this time, but I've told my GP that I'm happy to wait until Pfizer is available to everyone, I have a neighbour in the local hospital with clotting after an astro jab and he's around my age, not certain it was the vaccine that was responsible but who's going to take that chance? there's a lot of misinformation at present and it seems everyone you speak to has a different perspective, anyway my opinion is that Manly need me and my unflappable support until seasons end so I'll play it safe and wait and see what October brings

 

[eagleron]

I'll take a look later. Meanwhile I couldn't help noticing this bit looked familiar, sure enough:

"Republican Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, during an interview on a conservative podcast this week, compared House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's decision to continue to require members of the House to wear masks on the chamber floor to steps the Nazis took to control the Jewish population during the Holocaust."

Marjorie Taylor Greene compares House mask mandates to the Holocaust

Republican Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, during an interview on a conservative podcast this week, compared House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's decision to continue to require members of the House to wear masks on the chamber floor to steps the Nazis took to control the Jewish population during the...

edition.cnn.com

You've heard of Marjorie, no doubt -

"Republican Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene on Thursday said she regrets some of the false conspiracy theories she had promoted in the past, including her expressions of support for QAnon.

“I was allowed to believe things that weren’t true and I would ask questions about them and talk about them,” Greene said, “and that is absolutely what I regret.”

Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene expresses some regret about conspiracy claims ahead of vote to punish her

"I was allowed to believe things that weren't true and I would ask questions about them," Greene said, "and that is absolutely what I regret."

www.cnbc.com

She's used up her share of credibility, it's time for her and her ilk so sit down and stfu

 

[Simonmyers11]

swung by to see if this deteriorated as expected and sure enough......
but thanks for your eloquent attempts to set the record straight.

I'm sure you are probably that you've hit a CIBSmsm employee, but hey they got to make a living, some choose not to do it that way.

most importantly, I feel vindicated in suggesting it was a mistake of the moderators to allow this to continue on the RUGBY LEAGUE FORUM for so long.........because after all who wants to talk footy to a ignorant socialist numpty? Time will tell I suppose.

Good luck, we are all going to need it.

Yes, definitely a touchy subject and I questioned whether or not to get involved to be honest, having a debate on a public footy forum. Have actually enjoyed reading a lot of the posts on here though, some smart educated people on this forum who can intelligently put forward their beliefs and reasonings and post some informative studies. Much better than a lot of other social media platforms I can tell you, some of the stuff you read you just got to shake your head. In saying that, there are times I wish social media wasn't so in our face all the time. Need to check out. How much are Manly going to win by on the weekend?

 

[manlyfan76]

Struggling to make sense of the weekend's anti-lockdown rallies? These experts have some insights

Academics say a lack of bipartisan leadership has contributed to anti-lockdown and anti-vaccination sentiment, urging politicians to present a united front and treat protesters with empathy to curb their dissatisfaction.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Little Grubber Kick]

In saying that, there are times I wish social media wasn't so in our face all the time.....

You aren't Robinson Crueso on that one for sure, it's got to be reined in. Check out an episode of The Orville 'Majority Rule' S1E7 about how things could end up the way we are heading.

How much are Manly going to win by on the weekend?

I reckon we will score an extra 5-7 tries but who knows about the conversions ....mmmm so 20-42 is the range......

 

[Simonmyers11]

Struggling to make sense of the weekend's anti-lockdown rallies? These experts have some insights

Academics say a lack of bipartisan leadership has contributed to anti-lockdown and anti-vaccination sentiment, urging politicians to present a united front and treat protesters with empathy to curb their dissatisfaction.

www.abc.net.au

Very interesting. Makes a lot of good points.

 

[manlyfan76]

Corporate Media Joins the Anti-Vaxxers When It Comes to Chinese- and Russian-Made Vaccines

The consistent message to the world in U.S. media has been “The Chinese (and Russian) vaccines are ineffective or dangerous."

www.mintpressnews.com

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Responding with a general answer, but thanks to Simon, SER8 and Woodsie for their considered responses. Having read your responses I’ll speak again against lockdowns, masks and medical coercion.

It might be said: we should have drawn the line at seatbelts; if we had done we may not be here today. Personally, I believe the idea of protecting others by not breathing on them should remain a social concept, not a legal one. Once we cross that line, it opens the path to a very dystopian future.

Does that sound hyperbolic? And yet that is precisely what lockdowns and mask mandates are controlling. Crossing this line moves us toward a biosecurity paradigm. The question is, does the current situation actually warrant this?

Simon mentions a guy wanting to get a steak. And of course I believe someone should be able to get a steak if he wants, but this type of argument attempts to minimise the very real societal damage that lockdowns do. While the billionaires multiply their wealth many times over, and educated professionals work from home, the real brunt of the damage is felt by service workers, the unemployed, the self-employed, and small and medium sized business. As many businesses go under, who steps in to take their place? Corporations, who have the capital to weather the storm and the insider channels to government support.

While I personally think it’s naïve to think that those ultra-rich and connected individuals with the greatest agency to enact their will only ever do so by legal means, or if not legal, at least using clear steps that are easy for the common person to discern, speculation of such matters is unnecessary when assessing the costs and benefits of the interventions.

With regard to masks, we now have abundant data from pretty much every country on the planet. There is no correlation between mask compliance and the spread of the virus. Early in the pandemic, there was a meme around that we know masks work because countries with a natural tendency to wear masks seemed to have lower case levels. That’s no longer true. For example Thailand has high mask compliance and rapid spread. South Korea has almost total mask compliance and is apparently getting a new wave. In regional side by side analysis a different US states with and without mask mandates the curves are remarkably similar. There is no discernable ‘signal’ in the data anywhere to see an effect after mandates have been introduced or relaxed. To say WHO says they are effective is not a satisfactory argument. It’s a logical fallacy called appeal to authority. There are numerous studies on the effects of face masks to reduce respiratory infection by the general public, see some of the main ones collected here: Are Face Masks Effective? The Evidence.

I’d also like to add on masks: In my opinion it’s self-evident that they don’t work and the reasons why seem obvious. Firstly (and crucially) most of the air passes around and through the mask. But going deeper; what moisture that is captured by the mask quick evaporates due to the temperature of the face. In a sick person this moisture could include larger droplets. Once the moisture has evaporated, the smaller particles may even be blown away from the mask, the mask having effectively nebulized the larger droplets (which would have fallen to the ground) into a longer lasting aerosol.

It might surprise you to know the fatality rate of covid is not 2 or 3% but 0.2 or 0.3%. Here is a detailed global study from WHO’s own website: https://www.who.int/bulletin/online_first/BLT.20.265892.pdf It’s 0.05% in under 70s

Lastly, vaccines. Touchy subject. Personally I would prefer not to take a medical intervention if I think it is unwarranted. I’ve taken vaccines in the past, but I’m uncomfortable with this particular situation. The vaccines are new technology. Especially the mRNA ones. There’s some risk associated with the spike proteins. I think it’s a personal choice. This is why I mentioned the principle of informed consent in the previous post. I personally believe, according to the evidence, that the dangers of covid 19 have been exaggerated by the media and governments of the world (again, speculating why is irrelevant to my argument). As such my risk assessment is: don’t take the vaccine. I really hope it doesn’t come to full vaccine passport segregation in our society, but if it does we are on a frightening road. Consider reading this account, by an educated German, about how the totalitarian situation evolved in Germany bit by bit. How he became a NAZI basically. It’s really very, very interesting. We all have our own cognitive biases and you may not see the same things as me. But I unfortunately see some similarities to the current situation. They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer, an excerpt, 2017 edition

So let’s see –

Masks are pointless - disagree

Covid isn’t very lethal - disagree

Vaccines are too risky - disagree

Lockdowns harm people, except for billionaires and educated professionals – yes, the pandemic has undoubtedly exacerbated inequalities that already exist, including killing more people in disadvantaged communities

Not quite sure of your last point - vaccine passports mean those who don’t want vaccinations could end up in the gas chamber (?)

In any case, I did ask you yesterday which protesters demands you support (and I also asked @manlyfan76 which freedoms he was worried about) but no replies ! so Oh well, carry on then

 

[manlyfan76]

So let’s see –

Masks are pointless - disagree

Covid isn’t very lethal - disagree

Vaccines are too risky - disagree

Lockdowns harm people, except for billionaires and educated professionals – yes, the pandemic has undoubtedly exacerbated inequalities that already exist, including killing more people in disadvantaged communities

Not quite sure of your last point - vaccine passports mean those who don’t want vaccinations could end up in the gas chamber (?)

In any case, I did ask you yesterday which protesters demands you support (and I also asked @manlyfan76 which freedoms he was worried about) but no replies ! so Oh well, carry on then

Freedom of speech
Freedom of movement.
Freedom of health choice

These are already gone under the "pandemic" orders are they not?

Freedom to take the piss out of a politician, do that now and you can be labelled a terrorist FFS.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Freedom of speech
Freedom of movement.
Freedom of health choice

These are already gone under the "pandemic" orders are they not?

Freedom of movement obviously stopped by the lcokdown order, not sure what you mean about the others. You aren't forced to get vaccinated?

 

[manlyfan76]

And just incase they make a new law in the future there is the fact they are keeping all of our meta data. So they will be able to retroactively punish us.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Freedom to take the piss out of a politician, do that now and you can be labelled a terrorist FFS

Then how come Shaun Micallef isn't locked up??

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

And just incase they make a new law in the future there is the fact they are keeping all of our meta data. So they will be able to retroactively punish us.

So what do you propose?

 

[manlyfan76]

Freedom of movement obviously stopped by the lcokdown order, not sure what you mean about the others. You aren't forced to get vaccinated?

The Australian govt blocks websites and website traffic they don't like, the discussion about 5g towers got rubbed out. It disappeared by design not a lack of interest. Not that I agreed with the theory but I should be free to talk about it.

Under the covid directive we are a whole lot less free.
Quote:

Human biosecurity emergency powers​

During the human biosecurity emergency period, the Health Minister may:

• issue any direction to any person (section 478)
• determine any requirement (section 477)

End
My concern is where does the line get drawn? We have the most unaccounted for government in living memory running the show. They covered up fraud by ASIC , just edited all wrongdoing out of the report.

If people just go all in on safety who looks out for our freedom?
Wether they are right or wrong someone has to say no.

 

[manlyfan76]

Then how come Shaun Micallef isn't locked up??

Because he doesn't take the piss out of barralaro?

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

The Australian govt blocks websites and website traffic they don't like, the discussion about 5g towers got rubbed out. It disappeared by design not a lack of interest. Not that I agreed with the theory but I should be free to talk about it.

Under the covid directive we are a whole lot less free.
Quote:

Human biosecurity emergency powers​

During the human biosecurity emergency period, the Health Minister may:

• issue any direction to any person (section 478)
• determine any requirement (section 477)

End
My concern is where does the line get drawn? We have the most unaccounted for government in living memory running the show. They covered up fraud by ASIC , just edited all wrongdoing out of the report.

If people just go all in on safety who looks out for our freedom?
Wether they are right or wrong someone has to say no.

Probably a lot of people don't realise that cops have the power to bug your house and tap your phones for 6 months and not even tell you about it afterwards! All this stuff has been in for years, the govt is always granting extra powers to police in the name of countering terrorism and organised crime.

So-called civil liberties have never been a right, during these discussions several people are keen to say we've got a right to this or that, I don't know if they mean a moral right but I doubt there are as many legal rights as people think, and he ones that are there will be revoked as soon as the ruling class decides that is necessary!

As for making an issue out of the pandemic - the lockdown is unreasonable for 2 reasons, first because it should have been a hell of a lot stronger and quicker, Gladys delayed it and the genie got out and now can't be reined in.
Second because it is a disgrace to tell people they can't work as it is not in the public health interest (which it isn't) without giving them compensation for lost wages. But our economic system doesn't have 'the right to work' so why act like it does now?

 

[Simonmyers11]

Corporate Media Joins the Anti-Vaxxers When It Comes to Chinese- and Russian-Made Vaccines

The consistent message to the world in U.S. media has been “The Chinese (and Russian) vaccines are ineffective or dangerous."

www.mintpressnews.com

and this i feel is huge reason why mis-information is spread. People never really read the actual facts or interpret the studies correctly, they just read a headline. Very good article.

I have enjoyed reading some of these articles, keep em coming. Far cry from the crap that gets thrown around on facebook and instagram that so many seem to form an opinion on. does my head in.

 

[lsz]

Yes, definitely a touchy subject and I questioned whether or not to get involved to be honest, having a debate on a public footy forum. Have actually enjoyed reading a lot of the posts on here though, some smart educated people on this forum who can intelligently put forward their beliefs and reasonings and post some informative studies. Much better than a lot of other social media platforms I can tell you, some of the stuff you read you just got to shake your head. In saying that, there are times I wish social media wasn't so in our face all the time. Need to check out. How much are Manly going to win by on the weekend?

Can you take that league talk out of the general discussion forum please.....