Anti-vaxx, masks, Covid, freedom, 5G etc

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@Bearfax has got me interested in reading up more on the latest trials being conducted and results so far. Obviously very early stages but some interesting data coming out about the different vaccine types and their efficiency, also how long the antibodies last, how long before a second shot is needed, comparing the new vaccine variants such as moderna and novavax, to astra and pfzier, Australia trying to produce these new vaccines in house while competing with the big pharama, how long the roll out is expected to take, comparing the anti bodies you build up after contracting the virus compared to getting a vaccine compared to contracting the virus, recovering and then getting the vaccine.

obviously plenty more studies to be conducted yet, hopefully with more and more knowledge and can be put out into the public and not have people basing their opinions from twitter or face book. I read one post the other day where I comment was made that the" the protesters were causing no extra harm as covid cannot be caught if your outdoors. wake up" This is where a lot of misinformation is brought about on social media. I am very science based myself and read a lot of studies on things I am interested in or could potentially have risks/side effects such as medications. Anyway some interesting reading below. If people come across anymore interesting factual information they could post that would be good.


Australia secures Moderna vaccines


Australia wants to make mRNA COVID vaccines onshore. Here's how long that could take


The overlooked superpower of mRNA vaccines


AstraZeneca second dose doesn't raise risk of rare blood clots


Lancet: Pfizer, AstraZeneca jab antibody levels may dip in 3 months


Testing vaccines is preferred, but some of the most well known vaccines were tested on one person before it became quickly recognised. Jenner in 1796 tested a cowpox vaccine on an 8 year old. He didnt contract smallpox and quickly doctors sought that information. Salk injected himself on the vaccine against polio, then exposed himself to the disease. Thailer did the same with yellow fever. Wasn't recognised straight away but it expedited the process. The present safeguards are necessary but common sense needs to prevail. Some times there isnt sufficient time for total testing. Lives are at stake. Mind you some vaccines seem better than others and I think our PM made a mistake in putting most of his eggs in one basket, the AstraZeneca version. But that's just an opinion and its the one I've been vaccinated on.
 
About a third had co-morbidities.
Meaning about 80,000 otherwise healthy non-aged and infirm have died so far in the US

In addition to which, who do you think of as "the aged"?
aged 75 and over dead = 343,631
aged under 74 dead = 259873

I can just imagine you praising a player with an 80% success rate as 'almost exclusively' making his tackles.

It's not just semantics, its misleading and minimises the risk to young people to use terms like that

I'll take my shot for goal when you stop moving the goal posts ... your own figures use 65 years as the benchmark ..

PSS .. 80, 000 deaths from younger people in the USA may sound a lot ... but it still only represents 13% of their total deaths and further validates the statement that it is the aged and people with underlying health conditions that are doing the dying ...
 
further validates the statement that it is the aged and people with underlying health conditions that are doing the dying ...
'Mostly'.
Not 'almost exclusively'.
You are very well aware of how much misinformation is out there right now about this situation, and in particular about how dangerous Delta is, so I'm not sure why you'd bother to try to argue those two expressions are interchangeable.

'Almost exclusively' sends the message that the risk to non-aged or infirm is negligible. Which is not true.
 
Testing vaccines is preferred, but some of the most well known vaccines were tested on one person before it became quickly recognised. Jenner in 1796 tested a cowpox vaccine on an 8 year old. He didnt contract smallpox and quickly doctors sought that information. Salk injected himself on the vaccine against polio, then exposed himself to the disease. Thailer did the same with yellow fever. Wasn't recognised straight away but it expedited the process. The present safeguards are necessary but common sense needs to prevail. Some times there isnt sufficient time for total testing. Lives are at stake. Mind you some vaccines seem better than others and I think our PM made a mistake in putting most of his eggs in one basket, the AstraZeneca version. But that's just an opinion and its the one I've been vaccinated on.
PM definitively in hindsight made a judgement in error. These new vaccine variants seem interesting, did know much about them until i started reading up a little more. I'm getting my Pfzier shot today. I'm 41, have been on a waiting list for a few months. Getting second jab in August.

What type of vaccine are you getting for your second shot? Seems the astra variant losses its efficiency more than any other type. I can definitely see everyone needing booster shots going forward and more efficient types of vaccines being developed to counter the virus which which will most probably continue to mutate?. Interesting times ahead. Just got to do your best to stay safe for now.
 
PM definitively in hindsight made a judgement in error. These new vaccine variants seem interesting, did know much about them until i started reading up a little more. I'm getting my Pfzier shot today. I'm 41, have been on a waiting list for a few months. Getting second jab in August.

What type of vaccine are you getting for your second shot? Seems the astra variant losses its efficiency more than any other type. I can definitely see everyone needing booster shots going forward and more efficient types of vaccines being developed to counter the virus which which will most probably continue to mutate?. Interesting times ahead. Just got to do your best to stay safe for now.


Unfortunately I dont think you can mix vaccines, unlike your drinks, so its Astra for me. I've spoken with the local chemist (so I dont have to wait for half an hour at the docs) and he said he'd get me a dose when I'm ready to come in with a days warning, and he's a block away so I'll be right there. I'll wait 8 weeks to increase safety (its suggested the quicker you get the second one, the less effective it is. Thats with Astra, not necessarily the others)

By the way is the football on this weekend?;)
 
'Mostly'.
Not 'almost exclusively'.
You are very well aware of how much misinformation is out there right now about this situation, and in particular about how dangerous Delta is, so I'm not sure why you'd bother to try to argue those two expressions are interchangeable.

'Almost exclusively' sends the message that the risk to non-aged or infirm is negligible. Which is not true.

And I have no idea why you wish to exaggerate the risk to the young and healthy ... yes, there is a risk, but it is 9 times less than the aged.

It is your opinion that my statement is misleading ... one which I don't share ... And my 3.827 million facebook followers don't listen to me anyway ... let alone take health advice from me ...
 
Oh and @Woodsie and @robbiea
Just looking further at those figures US figures (cited above)

PSS .. 80, 000 deaths from younger people in the USA may sound a lot ... but it still only represents 13% of their total deaths
total in US aged 65 and over who died with no pre-existing condition = 293,510
total in US aged under 65 who died with no pre-existing condition = 75,046


Meaning, of all US deaths of people with no pre-existing condition, 20.09389416553596% (let's just say 20%)
have been people aged under 65
 
Oh and @Woodsie and @robbiea
Just looking further at those figures US figures (cited above)


total in US aged 65 and over who died with no pre-existing condition = 293,510
total in US aged under 65 who died with no pre-existing condition = 75,046


Meaning, of all US deaths of people with no pre-existing condition, 20.09389416553596% (let's just say 20%)
have been people aged under 65

Pleeese .. find a spot for the goal posts ... linking how many deaths without complications occurred in over 65's with those under 65 is meaningless ... the fact that they were over 65 is the point

How many younger died without pre-existing conditions stays the same ... just above 1 in 10 of total deaths ..
 
Unfortunately I dont think you can mix vaccines, unlike your drinks, so its Astra for me. I've spoken with the local chemist (so I dont have to wait for half an hour at the docs) and he said he'd get me a dose when I'm ready to come in with a days warning, and he's a block away so I'll be right there. I'll wait 8 weeks to increase safety (its suggested the quicker you get the second one, the less effective it is. Thats with Astra, not necessarily the others)

By the way is the football on this weekend?;)
LOL. Another win hopefully
 
Latest figures suggest the delta version is more lethal to the young than the previous versions and far more young are ending up in hospital.
 
Guess that it can get a little technical or revolve around semantics with pre existing conditions factors or specific covid related deaths . Could only assume that many or a good portion of deceased people with pre existing conditions of any age group would still be alive now without having contracted the covid virus but older age groups certainly more vulnerable
 
The problem is we don't look at pandemics the same way as say wars. We don't have the same urgency. We fear war, but contagions creep up on us and so we don't fear as much. 20 million died in WW1 and huge amounts of material has been written on it and engendering fear of a repetition. Yet well over 50 million died from the Spanish Flu only a year later. It doesn't get anywhere near the press. Compare how many have died in the past 18 months from Covid world wide. Now approaching 5 million. Yet on average in WW1 each year 5 million died. We get horrified and scared by the war, put all our resources into it. Yet a disease that kills a comparable number is treated with more complacency. Similar numbers dying but viewed differently. We are in a state of siege, no different from war and should be seeing it that way..
 
Responding with a general answer, but thanks to Simon, SER8 and Woodsie for their considered responses. Having read your responses I’ll speak again against lockdowns, masks and medical coercion.

It might be said: we should have drawn the line at seatbelts; if we had done we may not be here today. Personally, I believe the idea of protecting others by not breathing on them should remain a social concept, not a legal one. Once we cross that line, it opens the path to a very dystopian future.

Does that sound hyperbolic? And yet that is precisely what lockdowns and mask mandates are controlling. Crossing this line moves us toward a biosecurity paradigm. The question is, does the current situation actually warrant this?

Simon mentions a guy wanting to get a steak. And of course I believe someone should be able to get a steak if he wants, but this type of argument attempts to minimise the very real societal damage that lockdowns do. While the billionaires multiply their wealth many times over, and educated professionals work from home, the real brunt of the damage is felt by service workers, the unemployed, the self-employed, and small and medium sized business. As many businesses go under, who steps in to take their place? Corporations, who have the capital to weather the storm and the insider channels to government support.

While I personally think it’s naïve to think that those ultra-rich and connected individuals with the greatest agency to enact their will only ever do so by legal means, or if not legal, at least using clear steps that are easy for the common person to discern, speculation of such matters is unnecessary when assessing the costs and benefits of the interventions.

With regard to masks, we now have abundant data from pretty much every country on the planet. There is no correlation between mask compliance and the spread of the virus. Early in the pandemic, there was a meme around that we know masks work because countries with a natural tendency to wear masks seemed to have lower case levels. That’s no longer true. For example Thailand has high mask compliance and rapid spread. South Korea has almost total mask compliance and is apparently getting a new wave. In regional side by side analysis a different US states with and without mask mandates the curves are remarkably similar. There is no discernable ‘signal’ in the data anywhere to see an effect after mandates have been introduced or relaxed. To say WHO says they are effective is not a satisfactory argument. It’s a logical fallacy called appeal to authority. There are numerous studies on the effects of face masks to reduce respiratory infection by the general public, see some of the main ones collected here: Are Face Masks Effective? The Evidence. THIS INFORMATION IS DISPUTED

I’d also like to add on masks: In my opinion it’s self-evident that they don’t work and the reasons why seem obvious. Firstly (and crucially) most of the air passes around and through the mask. But going deeper; what moisture that is captured by the mask quick evaporates due to the temperature of the face. In a sick person this moisture could include larger droplets. Once the moisture has evaporated, the smaller particles may even be blown away from the mask, the mask having effectively nebulized the larger droplets (which would have fallen to the ground) into a longer lasting aerosol.

It might surprise you to know the fatality rate of covid is not 2 or 3% but 0.2 or 0.3%. Here is a detailed global study from WHO’s own website: THIS INFORMATION IS DISPUTED https://www.who.int/bulletin/online_first/BLT.20.265892.pdf It’s 0.05% in under 70s

Lastly, vaccines. Touchy subject. Personally I would prefer not to take a medical intervention if I think it is unwarranted. I’ve taken vaccines in the past, but I’m uncomfortable with this particular situation. The vaccines are new technology. Especially the mRNA ones. There’s some risk associated with the spike proteins. I think it’s a personal choice. This is why I mentioned the principle of informed consent in the previous post. I personally believe, according to the evidence, that the dangers of covid 19 have been exaggerated by the media and governments of the world (again, speculating why is irrelevant to my argument). As such my risk assessment is: don’t take the vaccine. I really hope it doesn’t come to full vaccine passport segregation in our society, but if it does we are on a frightening road. Consider reading this account, by an educated German, about how the totalitarian situation evolved in Germany bit by bit. How he became a NAZI basically. It’s really very, very interesting. We all have our own cognitive biases and you may not see the same things as me. But I unfortunately see some similarities to the current situation. They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer, an excerpt, 2017 edition
 
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Pleeese .. find a spot for the goal posts ... linking how many deaths without complications occurred in over 65's with those under 65 is meaningless ... the fact that they were over 65 is the point

How many younger died without pre-existing conditions stays the same ... just above 1 in 10 of total deaths ..
As of 5 hours ago: "There are 182 COVID-19 cases in hospital, including 54 in intensive care and 22 on ventilators. The Dr Chant stressed the ICU cases were young, with two in their teens, eight in their 20s, four in their 30s and three in their 40s."
 
.. I really hope it doesn’t come to full vaccine passport segregation in our society, but if it does we are on a frightening road. Consider reading this account, by an educated German, about how the totalitarian situation evolved in Germany bit by bit. How he became a NAZI basically. It’s really very, very interesting. We all have our own cognitive biases and you may not see the same things as me. But I unfortunately see some similarities to the current situation.
I'll take a look later. Meanwhile I couldn't help noticing this bit looked familiar, sure enough:

"Republican Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, during an interview on a conservative podcast this week, compared House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's decision to continue to require members of the House to wear masks on the chamber floor to steps the Nazis took to control the Jewish population during the Holocaust."

You've heard of Marjorie, no doubt -

"Republican Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene on Thursday said she regrets some of the false conspiracy theories she had promoted in the past, including her expressions of support for QAnon.


“I was allowed to believe things that weren’t true and I would ask questions about them and talk about them,” Greene said, “and that is absolutely what I regret.”
 
Oh here it is now stationed. Took a bit of looking.

There seems to be a confusion between safety to the community and the right to protest. No one is saying you cant protest. That is a fundamental right. The issue is how you protest, so that others aren't put at risk.

I didn't have children and though married early, no progeny resulted. So unlike probably a lot of you my life was quite self absorbed. Had a great couple of jobs that gave me a great sense of human nature and did a huge amount of reading. Doesn't mean I'm smarter, I just had luck and a lot of time on my hands.

One of the areas I read about is plagues and war and how they are viewed. Got a library full of these books and other s..t. But together with my career it gave me a good sense of human nature and how people respond to such risks.

One of the things I noted was that people feared war far more than plague, that is until it really started to take its toll. The main reason is viruses and bacteria are invisible. You cant see them coming. If I saw an enemy soldier or a lion or tiger, you would run for cover. But you cant see a virus or bacteria and therefore don't feel as threatened.

But a virus or bacteria are just as lethal as a lion or tiger. They are a predator. Their aim is to eat you, feed off you, or at least part of you. Its just that you know a lion is eating you, but until its too late you don't know a virus is. But its exactly the same. Predation. That's how they survive. And their greatest asset is that they cant be seen. But they injure or kill just as effectively. That is their life's goal just the same as a lion. To harvest off you.

Now that may sound melodramatic but its quite real. Past plagues that killed hundreds of millions, often did so because people didn't see them coming, and didn't take precautions that could have saved them. The famed Black Death for example could have been stopped on the several occasions during the Egyptian, Justinian, 14th century Europe and again in the 16th and 17th century. Even the Spanish Flu could have been contained but they didn't know what to look for. They couldn't see what was eating them

The difference today is that we know what to look for and know how to protect ourselves. But we still are deceived by their invisibility. They are a predator and their goal is to harvest off you. Most will survive that attack, many wont and will die. And unlike most predators, it uses you to move to its next victim.

Horrible but its just nature and we fortunately now have ways to stop them. But we must remain vigilant, not just for us but for others around us.

Now I know some here are going to call this crap. I would suggest you read some past experiences with disease. If we have means to protect ourselves against the lion by putting a wall between you and it, you do so. That's all vaccines and these restrictions are about. Putting a wall between you and the virus. Its folly to pretend the disease is not dangerous to you and those about you. Masks aren't a complete protection, but they are better than not having one. And keeping a distance allows the virus to dissipate into the air before it reaches you
 
Responding with a general answer, but thanks to Simon, SER8 and Woodsie for their considered responses. Having read your responses I’ll speak again against lockdowns, masks and medical coercion.

It might be said: we should have drawn the line at seatbelts; if we had done we may not be here today. Personally, I believe the idea of protecting others by not breathing on them should remain a social concept, not a legal one. Once we cross that line, it opens the path to a very dystopian future.

Does that sound hyperbolic? And yet that is precisely what lockdowns and mask mandates are controlling. Crossing this line moves us toward a biosecurity paradigm. The question is, does the current situation actually warrant this?

Simon mentions a guy wanting to get a steak. And of course I believe someone should be able to get a steak if he wants, but this type of argument attempts to minimise the very real societal damage that lockdowns do. While the billionaires multiply their wealth many times over, and educated professionals work from home, the real brunt of the damage is felt by service workers, the unemployed, the self-employed, and small and medium sized business. As many businesses go under, who steps in to take their place? Corporations, who have the capital to weather the storm and the insider channels to government support.

While I personally think it’s naïve to think that those ultra-rich and connected individuals with the greatest agency to enact their will only ever do so by legal means, or if not legal, at least using clear steps that are easy for the common person to discern, speculation of such matters is unnecessary when assessing the costs and benefits of the interventions.

With regard to masks, we now have abundant data from pretty much every country on the planet. There is no correlation between mask compliance and the spread of the virus. Early in the pandemic, there was a meme around that we know masks work because countries with a natural tendency to wear masks seemed to have lower case levels. That’s no longer true. For example Thailand has high mask compliance and rapid spread. South Korea has almost total mask compliance and is apparently getting a new wave. In regional side by side analysis a different US states with and without mask mandates the curves are remarkably similar. There is no discernable ‘signal’ in the data anywhere to see an effect after mandates have been introduced or relaxed. To say WHO says they are effective is not a satisfactory argument. It’s a logical fallacy called appeal to authority. There are numerous studies on the effects of face masks to reduce respiratory infection by the general public, see some of the main ones collected here: Are Face Masks Effective? The Evidence.

I’d also like to add on masks: In my opinion it’s self-evident that they don’t work and the reasons why seem obvious. Firstly (and crucially) most of the air passes around and through the mask. But going deeper; what moisture that is captured by the mask quick evaporates due to the temperature of the face. In a sick person this moisture could include larger droplets. Once the moisture has evaporated, the smaller particles may even be blown away from the mask, the mask having effectively nebulized the larger droplets (which would have fallen to the ground) into a longer lasting aerosol.

It might surprise you to know the fatality rate of covid is not 2 or 3% but 0.2 or 0.3%. Here is a detailed global study from WHO’s own website: https://www.who.int/bulletin/online_first/BLT.20.265892.pdf It’s 0.05% in under 70s

Lastly, vaccines. Touchy subject. Personally I would prefer not to take a medical intervention if I think it is unwarranted. I’ve taken vaccines in the past, but I’m uncomfortable with this particular situation. The vaccines are new technology. Especially the mRNA ones. There’s some risk associated with the spike proteins. I think it’s a personal choice. This is why I mentioned the principle of informed consent in the previous post. I personally believe, according to the evidence, that the dangers of covid 19 have been exaggerated by the media and governments of the world (again, speculating why is irrelevant to my argument). As such my risk assessment is: don’t take the vaccine. I really hope it doesn’t come to full vaccine passport segregation in our society, but if it does we are on a frightening road. Consider reading this account, by an educated German, about how the totalitarian situation evolved in Germany bit by bit. How he became a NAZI basically. It’s really very, very interesting. We all have our own cognitive biases and you may not see the same things as me. But I unfortunately see some similarities to the current situation. They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer, an excerpt, 2017 edition
I think end of the day we will always still have the right to be vaccinated or not, and I originally thought the masks were silly, I dont really think about it anymore, just throw it on just in case it might be helping in some small percentage.

I just went out and got the pfzier shot.

I do feel for the small businesses, retail, hospitality etc. Really unfortunate situation and must be so stressful! Luckily I am an engineer and can work from home for the time being, but the poor families with no income, they must be doing it tough.

I think the whole freedom topic is a little over exaggerated though. On the way back from the doctor people were out running, walking their dogs, kids playing in the park, bikes going past, people buying meat at the butcher, getting supplies from the chemist, buying take away food at the cafes, lots of cars on the road, people exercising, etc etc Not like we have no rights are are locked up in a cage
 
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Responding with a general answer, but thanks to Simon, SER8 and Woodsie for their considered responses. Having read your responses I’ll speak again against lockdowns, masks and medical coercion.

It might be said: we should have drawn the line at seatbelts; if we had done we may not be here today. Personally, I believe the idea of protecting others by not breathing on them should remain a social concept, not a legal one. Once we cross that line, it opens the path to a very dystopian future.

Does that sound hyperbolic? And yet that is precisely what lockdowns and mask mandates are controlling. Crossing this line moves us toward a biosecurity paradigm. The question is, does the current situation actually warrant this?

Simon mentions a guy wanting to get a steak. And of course I believe someone should be able to get a steak if he wants, but this type of argument attempts to minimise the very real societal damage that lockdowns do. While the billionaires multiply their wealth many times over, and educated professionals work from home, the real brunt of the damage is felt by service workers, the unemployed, the self-employed, and small and medium sized business. As many businesses go under, who steps in to take their place? Corporations, who have the capital to weather the storm and the insider channels to government support.

While I personally think it’s naïve to think that those ultra-rich and connected individuals with the greatest agency to enact their will only ever do so by legal means, or if not legal, at least using clear steps that are easy for the common person to discern, speculation of such matters is unnecessary when assessing the costs and benefits of the interventions.

With regard to masks, we now have abundant data from pretty much every country on the planet. There is no correlation between mask compliance and the spread of the virus. Early in the pandemic, there was a meme around that we know masks work because countries with a natural tendency to wear masks seemed to have lower case levels. That’s no longer true. For example Thailand has high mask compliance and rapid spread. South Korea has almost total mask compliance and is apparently getting a new wave. In regional side by side analysis a different US states with and without mask mandates the curves are remarkably similar. There is no discernable ‘signal’ in the data anywhere to see an effect after mandates have been introduced or relaxed. To say WHO says they are effective is not a satisfactory argument. It’s a logical fallacy called appeal to authority. There are numerous studies on the effects of face masks to reduce respiratory infection by the general public, see some of the main ones collected here: Are Face Masks Effective? The Evidence.

I’d also like to add on masks: In my opinion it’s self-evident that they don’t work and the reasons why seem obvious. Firstly (and crucially) most of the air passes around and through the mask. But going deeper; what moisture that is captured by the mask quick evaporates due to the temperature of the face. In a sick person this moisture could include larger droplets. Once the moisture has evaporated, the smaller particles may even be blown away from the mask, the mask having effectively nebulized the larger droplets (which would have fallen to the ground) into a longer lasting aerosol.

It might surprise you to know the fatality rate of covid is not 2 or 3% but 0.2 or 0.3%. Here is a detailed global study from WHO’s own website: https://www.who.int/bulletin/online_first/BLT.20.265892.pdf It’s 0.05% in under 70s

Lastly, vaccines. Touchy subject. Personally I would prefer not to take a medical intervention if I think it is unwarranted. I’ve taken vaccines in the past, but I’m uncomfortable with this particular situation. The vaccines are new technology. Especially the mRNA ones. There’s some risk associated with the spike proteins. I think it’s a personal choice. This is why I mentioned the principle of informed consent in the previous post. I personally believe, according to the evidence, that the dangers of covid 19 have been exaggerated by the media and governments of the world (again, speculating why is irrelevant to my argument). As such my risk assessment is: don’t take the vaccine. I really hope it doesn’t come to full vaccine passport segregation in our society, but if it does we are on a frightening road. Consider reading this account, by an educated German, about how the totalitarian situation evolved in Germany bit by bit. How he became a NAZI basically. It’s really very, very interesting. We all have our own cognitive biases and you may not see the same things as me. But I unfortunately see some similarities to the current situation. They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer, an excerpt, 2017 edition
Those statics are outdated mate, more than a year old. Before the delta strain. Varies country to country, some 2%, some as high as 9-10%. Australia has had 34,000 cases. 920 deaths. Close to 3%.
 
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