A clean out is not the answer

[SeaEagleRock8]

the bulk of this forum is knee jerk without really analysing the context behind everything.

That's what we're here for!

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Bring Gutho back. Turbo to centres. Gutho has been a fearless leader at the eels and we could do with him at the back

Gutho is King at the Eels. Why on earth would he ever want to come back to Manly?
Oh yeah, I suppose we could offer him a lifetime deal on 1.3mil, that might do it.

 

[madmax]

Some of what you say is true, but to blame all of our woes on Croker is a bit of a stretch. Yes he isn't the greatest hooker getting around but there are some other seriously underperforming players in this team.

I'm still trying to work out what Walkers role in our attack is ?? he is playing in the line like a second 5/8. Looks clunky to me.

Schuster managed to create a few line breaks and look a little dangerous, so our dummy half wasn't inhibiting him too badly

Yes it'd be nice to have Fainu and I have little doubt we would improve if he was our 9, but I think we should still be competing better than we are with Croker or Cust at 9. Our attack just looks clunky, disjointed and lacks execution. Too much sideways. Seems to me all our attack was spun around Turbo being there, without him we look lost for ideas.

What we need to do Chip is select players in their correct positions where they play to their strengths. Walker is our best centre & thats where he should be. We don’t have a winger or centre that can play FB so Koula should be there. Croker & Cust are not hookers so Birt should be there. Instead of disrupting team cohesion by selecting players out of position all we needed to do was select the above players. It couldn’t be any worse to what we have now. Yes injuries can play havoc but again we have the cattle to select players in the positions they belong in. Due to injury / stood down:
Koula
Saab
Walker
Suli
Garrick
Foran
DCE
Paseka
Birt
Marty
Gosiewski
Jake
Schuster
Res: Cust, Aloiai, Keppie, Sipley

I honestly believe this team would have / could have won the first 3 games & would give the Panthers a good run for their money....if not beat them.

 

[manlyfan76]

What we need to do Chip is select players in their correct positions where they play to their strengths. Walker is our best centre & thats where he should be. We don’t have a winger or centre that can play FB so Koula should be there. Croker & Cust are not hookers so Birt should be there. Instead of disrupting team cohesion by selecting players out of position all we needed to do was select the above players. It couldn’t be any worse to what we have now. Yes injuries can play havoc but again we have the cattle to select players in the positions they belong in. Due to injury / stood down:
Koula
Saab
Walker
Suli
Garrick
Foran
DCE
Paseka
Birt
Marty
Gosiewski
Jake
Schuster
Res: Cust, Aloiai, Keppie, Sipley

I honestly believe this team would have / could have won the first 3 games & would give the Panthers a good run for their money....if not beat them.

Agree.
Don't weaken a position to maybe strengthen another.

 

[Kez]

I disagree...we are going down a path that cant be fixed with our current salary cap..3 to 4 players who are being payed way to much for the service they provide..how can certain greats and a hell of alot of people see this and others dont..dce is a curse..i said it when he backflipped and stayed that the next 7 yrs are going to be testing times..we have no depth and balance and until we do we wont win the comp..its got nothing to do with faith..im just being realistic

 

[Jerry1]

A good read.

Bennett roster call puts him on collision course

Defiant master coach at odds with Souths CEO

wwos.nine.com.au

 

[KNUCKLES]

Gutho is King at the Eels. Why on earth would he ever want to come back to Manly?
Oh yeah, I suppose we could offer him a lifetime deal on 1.3mil, that might do it.

Still lives in the Northern beaches, wants to play fullback and can be given the captaincy here also.. plus 800k would be more than he is on now.

 

[Rafferty]

Gutho is King at the Eels. Why on earth would he ever want to come back to Manly?
Oh yeah, I suppose we could offer him a lifetime deal on 1.3mil, that might do it.

Nope don’t reckon, did you see Gutho after the game, his loving his footy mate, winning is what it’s all about and Parra are all over it, they play out of bankwest, what an awesome home ground, I think they are 19 or 20 from 24 or 25 at home ( it’s the new fortress) money wouldnt make me leave not even half a million a year to swap what he has for what we offer, throw in he has the very real prospect of a premiership to boot. You had it right in the first instance why on earth would he ever come back, never happening.

 

[OneEyedEagle]

I've watched enough RL to know that clean outs don't work. Neither does sacking a coach.

Trench Robinson coached his side full of stars to a 15th place finish in 2016. He has won 3 premierships. Shane Flanagan has won spoons and a premiership. Brad Arthur keeps making the finals in spite of winning a spoon with the Eels. The Dogs have gone on a signing spree and haven't fired a shot with the alleged 'attacking genius' behind Penrith's GF appearance last year. There is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that a 'black and white' approach to running a club does not guarantee success, nor does it mean failure. There are too many shades of grey to simply approach things from a 'we are failing' so lets sack everyone and everything will be better tomorrow.

Blooding rookies, moving players into different positions, getting rid of stock, etc. is not going to change things. The problems we are having concern so many variables that one solution is not going to change overnight. This same squad can turn it around. Des can turn it around. This sort of thing happens in RL all the time.

Take a guy like DCE for example. He hasn't suddenly forgotten how to play RL. He captained QLD to a series win last year and played really well. The reason he is struggling and the reason our attack is faltering is because we have no 9. There is absolutely nothing for DCE or Foz to play off the back of at the moment, hence they look ordinary. We need deception around the ruck to hold up markers and generate quick play-the-balls, then you'll see DCE and Foz run into some form. Backrowers are also going to look pretty ordinary because they too require ruck speed to punch into holes off the halves on the edges. At the moment, there are no holes. The flow on effect is the errors and forced passes and desperate plays because things just aren't clicking in the middle. Then the confidence crisis kicks in and you just keep finding ways to shoot yourself in the foot.

To compound things, we have no Tom. He will be back though. If we had Manase, we'd be doing better in the middle. Maybe Lawton will help improve things around the ruck. There is hope. I've even seen Parker play well when things are going our way. He is no world beater but he can hold his own on a good day. Those good days will come again. We are just a team down on confidence and down on players in key positions and the flow on effect of that is evident in the first three weeks of our season.

Keep the faith.

Good logical post @Snake thank you for the rational perspective you have shared.

 

[KaZa]

Not a clean out but some dead wood needs to be tossed out

 

[AndWeDon'tCare]

Great post snake however, why are we seeking change from the playing roster alone when the changes required extend beyond the football department.

The lack of direction from the very top with the rudimentary responses when interviewed to the inability of the management team to make calculated executive decisions is the fog enveloping the entire organisation.

At the present the only type of NRL player that would be attracted to this club is a monetary mercenary".

The club is adamant that "it will not repeat the actions of (the) past executive" viz-a-viz the bulk of cap spend on a select few.

Finally, in a different thread, Mr. Penn was quoted along the lines of "we have excellent juniors coming through" as if it were to placate the masses; we definitely do have some great juniors, however, fall asleep at the well wheel Mr. Penn and the masses "baying for blood" at the present time, will be seeking more than just blood should you ruin the best part of the organisation.

And beware there are plenty of people watching our brilliant juniors.

I posted my thoughts at the start of the season and nothing has changed, in part my frustrations lay with the football department however a majority of my concerns rest with the overall organisation.

Mr. Penn, you are a great admirer of the late Jack Welch and I say this to you, adhere to two of Jack's most famous quotes.

"Control your own destiny or someone else will."

"Face reality as it is, not as it was or as you wish it to be."

An interview every 3 to 6 months is not leading all it does is lead others to speculate about the vacuum of your leadership.

 

[Pittwater Legend]

Nope don’t reckon, did you see Gutho after the game, his loving his footy mate, winning is what it’s all about and Parra are all over it, they play out of bankwest, what an awesome home ground, I think they are 19 or 20 from 24 or 25 at home ( it’s the new fortress) money wouldnt make me leave not even half a million a year to swap what he has for what we offer, throw in he has the very real prospect of a premiership to boot. You had it right in the first instance why on earth would he ever come back, never happening.

King Guth currently has a winning % of 54.7 at club level, which is unusual for a player who has played most of his matches for Parramatta.

Can be considered unlucky not to have won the Dally M last year. If Mitchell Moses wasn’t ineffective last year, Parramatta very well could have won the comp last year.

Guth is also making it fun for Parra fans to support their team. What we need is for Manly players to make it fun for us to support the club. Josh Schuster for me is a start

 

[BOZO]

Great post snake however, why are we seeking change from the playing roster alone when the changes required extend beyond the football department.

The lack of direction from the very top with the rudimentary responses when interviewed to the inability of the management team to make calculated executive decisions is the fog enveloping the entire organisation.

At the present the only type of NRL player that would be attracted to this club is a monetary mercenary".

The club is adamant that "it will not repeat the actions of (the) past executive" viz-a-viz the bulk of cap spend on a select few.

Finally, in a different thread, Mr. Penn was quoted along the lines of "we have excellent juniors coming through" as if it were to placate the masses; we definitely do have some great juniors, however, fall asleep at the well wheel Mr. Penn and the masses "baying for blood" at the present time, will be seeking more than just blood should you ruin the best part of the organisation.

And beware there are plenty of people watching our brilliant juniors.

I posted my thoughts at the start of the season and nothing has changed, in part my frustrations lay with the football department however a majority of my concerns rest with the overall organisation.

Mr. Penn, you are a great admirer of the late Jack Welch and I say this to you, adhere to two of Jack's most famous quotes.

"Control your own destiny or someone else will."

"Face reality as it is, not as it was or as you wish it to be."

An interview every 3 to 6 months is not leading all it does is lead others to speculate about the vacuum of your leadership.

At the present the only type of NRL player that would be attracted to this club is a monetary mercenary".

Far from it feathered friend !

PERCEPTION TIME

The Storm find budget players and turn them into great value for money players

One other thing

Whilst other sports clubs and Business people around the world have gone broke in these tough economic times Mr Penn has controlled his destiny and prevailed

It is now our coaches turn to take control of his own destiny

 

[winnyason]

I've watched enough RL to know that clean outs don't work. Neither does sacking a coach.

Trench Robinson coached his side full of stars to a 15th place finish in 2016. He has won 3 premierships. Shane Flanagan has won spoons and a premiership. Brad Arthur keeps making the finals in spite of winning a spoon with the Eels. The Dogs have gone on a signing spree and haven't fired a shot with the alleged 'attacking genius' behind Penrith's GF appearance last year. There is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that a 'black and white' approach to running a club does not guarantee success, nor does it mean failure. There are too many shades of grey to simply approach things from a 'we are failing' so lets sack everyone and everything will be better tomorrow.

Blooding rookies, moving players into different positions, getting rid of stock, etc. is not going to change things. The problems we are having concern so many variables that one solution is not going to change overnight. This same squad can turn it around. Des can turn it around. This sort of thing happens in RL all the time.

Take a guy like DCE for example. He hasn't suddenly forgotten how to play RL. He captained QLD to a series win last year and played really well. The reason he is struggling and the reason our attack is faltering is because we have no 9. There is absolutely nothing for DCE or Foz to play off the back of at the moment, hence they look ordinary. We need deception around the ruck to hold up markers and generate quick play-the-balls, then you'll see DCE and Foz run into some form. Backrowers are also going to look pretty ordinary because they too require ruck speed to punch into holes off the halves on the edges. At the moment, there are no holes. The flow on effect is the errors and forced passes and desperate plays because things just aren't clicking in the middle. Then the confidence crisis kicks in and you just keep finding ways to shoot yourself in the foot.

To compound things, we have no Tom. He will be back though. If we had Manase, we'd be doing better in the middle. Maybe Lawton will help improve things around the ruck. There is hope. I've even seen Parker play well when things are going our way. He is no world beater but he can hold his own on a good day. Those good days will come again. We are just a team down on confidence and down on players in key positions and the flow on effect of that is evident in the first three weeks of our season.

Keep the faith.

Hi Snake, while to agree to some degree there a few guys that don't cut the mustard namely Parker, Garrick, Croker and Goewiski and simply Suli lack of effort in defence has been an issue for well over 18 months.
My issue is seeing a kid as talented as schuster wait so long now we all thinking wtf and or young Hamole also been given minimal chances. Not every kid works our E.g. albert hopoate.
Yes when Tom back will look better and with Dylan Walker back in the centres but the Fainu thing I don't have alot of confidence in. What's the plan if he guilty Brandon Smith or see if young Birt cuts it ?

 

[BOZO]

Nothing refreshing like an end of season spring clean

 

[Tragic Eagle]

The last 13 games are proof that if you don’t change things the outcome remains the same. It’s not rocket science you pick quality players who have to play well to keep their positions. Give them a game plan and be strict if they don’t follow instructions drop them even DCE! Making excuses for them and continually picking players not performing is indicative of having run out of ideas.

 

[Jerry1]

Ohhhhh yes it is.......
🙂

 

[BOZO]

The last 13 games are proof that if you don’t change things the outcome remains the same. It’s not rocket science you pick quality players who have to play well to keep their positions. Give them a game plan and be strict if they don’t follow instructions drop them even DCE! Making excuses for them and continually picking players not performing is indicative of having run out of ideas.

Also if it was not for injuries . Our best performing player Schuster would not have been given a Shot in the team .

I cannot believe he initially kept him out and persisted with the players that failed in the past 12 thrashings

 

[Franko]

It won’t matter if we jag a win we still have a **** team, what are we 14-15 losses now in a row, if you say change isn’t required I say you have lost your ****....I am speaking on behalf of a supporter, a born and bred Manly supporter.

Maybe not a 100% clean out but it is at least a significant amount

Parker
Garrick
Tafua
jetski
sirro
croker
cust
suli
boyle

at least these guys need to go from our books not even NSW cup quality..

obviously snake is close to the team, his posts are usually spot on, however you can’t defend how terrible the last few years have been. Other teams have injuries and players out but still manage to be top teams.

something is wrong and not working and change needs to occur, where that is I’ll leave that up to the professionals.....

 

[AndWeDon'tCare]

Bozo,

I truly love your positivity, it's infectious and kudos to you for your unwavering optimism.

Two points on your reply: -

1. I've had the opportunity to be involved in dealings with the Melbourne Storm in the past with respect to a sponsorship (no, no, not salary cap related or induced) arrangement a client of our office accepted.

They are "light years" ahead of our club in their approach to you as a person, a business, an opportunity when entertaining a relationship with the club.

I do not condone their detrimental affect on the game that I grew up watching, I'm merely assessing them when compared to the Sea Eagles, who I've also had the opportunity to interact with.

We have not invested in "our club", we have enriched other aspects of "our club", not the right areas and we haven't adapted to the ferocity of change on and off the field in the last 18 months.

Do you honestly believe that every "budget player" on the market hasn't had their manager contact the storm?

They sure do and the reason is, they "believe" in the Storm being able to make them a better player and the storm can chose which player they pick for that price.

Bozo THAT alone vindicates their entire organisational model, they can create their own destiny (for the time being).

2. Don't believe for a moment that Mr. Penn is some brilliant mind who has managed to increase his wealth during those troubled times, those who have failed have been for a variety of reasons, whether they were highly leveraged or funded by organisations who have been enforced, by way of sovereign direction, to "wave away" the excesses of sporting organisations.

Suffice to say, many more owners have increased their wealth by way of diversification and by investing in income streams over and above the traditional model that we appear to operate within.

His family's primary source of wealth has suffered its greatest decline Y.o.Y in its history and only now are rumblings being made that Mr. Penn needs to reassert himself to stop the huge amount of losses the club is facing.

Our coach HAS taken control of his own destiny, he was given a two-year extension and the recent interview was only done to stop the head scratching in the broader community as to why the coach received an extension.

You can scream all you like that he has performance clauses, KPI metrics et cetera et cetera however, if you DIDN'T place such clauses in a contract, that I assume is in excess of $450k per annum on a base alone, then you shouldn't be the owner of a football club, let alone the petty cash tin in your office.

“There’s likely a place in paradise for people who tried hard, but what really matters is succeeding. If that requires you to change, that’s your mission.”

It does appear with all the text written about our Club and Mr. Penn in the last 48 hours, perhaps Mr. Penn has finally decided to dial-in a new course for the Coach and everyone else in the club.

Time will tell.

Nonetheless feathered-friend, we, all of us here on the forum, stand shoulder to shoulder supporting our club, we are used to seeing a team play with pride, passion and commitment; We are all struggling to comprehend and accept what is being dished-up at the moment.