A clean out is not the answer

[Technical Coach]

We are playing so poorly(worse than last year) that any genuine hooker who comes in will make some difference "this year", any hooker who has spark and can engage the ruck defenders will make a difference because we are playing so poorly it can't get any worse.

But seeing a difference with one positional improvement does not address the overall lack of explosiveness and heads up footwork at the line we lack,(forwards and backs) or the old school scripted second man plays that get easily read because they are done in autopilot mode without prior tackle leadup work to give the play half a chance.

Having wingers and centres who can offer spark in the early play the balls coming out of our own half, back rowers who can play like centres and a little mongrel and attitude in our front row stocks will help also---we just go through the motions and it is a yawn fest.

Is there anything more pathetic than the high fives after causing a dropped ball, sometimes it comes across more like "thank f89K we don't have to tackle the entire set", then after all that energy in high fiving and back slapping each other we come back with the lamest most lacklustre set of six you will ever see as if the energy was all used up in the backslapping orgy.

Attack overly reliant on the fullback chiming in, falling behind in tries scored from kicks, a lack of subtle ballwork through the forwards off the hip or through the line with any confidence and numbers around the ball.(not the high risk hope for the best offloads Marty does)

It always feels like Manly play with nerves and a lack of self belief until they put on two tries in the early stages and generate a points margin, once we do that some self belief will come in and the enthusiasm to defend and grind out a win comes back.

I would still prefer a fullback that is more energy based and can change their lines or chime in all over the place supporting plays like Paps and Dufty, offering more attacking heads up options than the way Turbo plays for example.

As the game gets faster and more 6 again sets are in play you need more up tempo heads up players with footwork with a turn of speed to keep up with the high points scoring environment, when the game is slower and more like a game of chess you need more structure and scripted plays.

 

[Deleted member 26876]

I agree that cleanouts can do far more damage than good at times. They can uproot the foundations of the club and it is a risk to see if the new crop will take. However, for us, the players off contract are for the most part rather insignificant players (sorry if they ever read this) that have simply been filling holes for us or taking up neccessary career moves. If we release 90% of the off contract players, as well as a few stale players like Taupau, Sironen, we can seriously improve this side. I don't think cleanout is the word. I think upgrade is a much more appropriate word for what will likely happen this offseason. It's not like we will replace the existing foundation (spine, Paseka, Aloiai, Jurbo, Schu, Saab, Davey), but rather we will mainly keep the same foundation and reinforce the weak spots (Centre, Wing, Second-row, Lawton as upgrade to Croker, maybe shift Jake and a new lock/Brown)

 

[Eagles4Life]

Yeh nah. We need a clean out. Am loving the apologist logic presented in your arguments, and the multiplicity of rugby league cliches presented in the wording. Ten points for that Snake. But the evidence you are putting forward on most points is in direct contradiction to the results we are achieving now, and have achieved since mid-season last year. As a club we are well beyond the point of accepting and enabling mediocrity. Many of us (including myself) have been guilty of doing exactly that. Manly has been accused of many things over the years BUT the embarassing and dysfunctional mediocrity we are demonstrating right now, has not been one of those previous accusations. A clean out is absolutely necessary, and the sooner it begins, the better.

 

[Pete W]

I think we have cooked our salary cap.. for that reason I think a clean out is necessary. That and a lack of quality in certain positions. I know the below is strictly hypothetical amd estimates but letting all off contract players go along with Cherry, taupau freight free and suli even if we have to pay 250k.. the list looks alot better. Allowing 4.2mil to hit the market with my own personal guesstimates. Again hypothetical but youse get the idea with something we could end up with if we take action and chase the right targets

1.Clint Gutherson (c) 800k
2.Jason Saab
3.Billy Smith 250k
4.Tom Trbojevic
5.Blake Ferguson 350k
6.Joshua Schuster
7.Cade Cust
8.Taniela Paseka
9.Karl Lawton
10.Jake Trbojevic
11.Haumole Olakau'atu
12.Jaydn Su'a 650k
13.Nathan Brown 650k

14.Manase Fainu
15.Zac Saddler
16.Joshua Aloiai
17.Andrew Davey

18.Tolutau Koula
19.Morgan Harper
20.Christian Tuipolotu
21.Taane Milne 150k
22.Riley Jacks 300k
23.Jamie Humphreys
24.Sean Keppie
25.Mitch Rein 250k
26.Alec Tuitavake
27.Jed Cartwright 150k
28.Siosifa Talakai 200k
29.Tom Amone 150k
30.Bunty Afoa 200k

Tom to centre... yes! Bring in either Gutho/Hynes/Aekins, and at least when Tom goes down, he will be playing a position that can be far easier covered. I think this is a great long term solution to the Tommy Hammy dilemma. Fullback is too important (if not the most important - with 9) to be messing around with. Recruit a specialist, and when Tom is fit and healthy, one of our edges would be near unstoppable, otherwise our spine and attacking strategy/structures will still be in tact. Well done that is a well-balanced list (and I wouldn't even think we'd need to recruit Fergo)

 

[Simonmyers11]

I've watched enough RL to know that clean outs don't work. Neither does sacking a coach.

Trench Robinson coached his side full of stars to a 15th place finish in 2016. He has won 3 premierships. Shane Flanagan has won spoons and a premiership. Brad Arthur keeps making the finals in spite of winning a spoon with the Eels. The Dogs have gone on a signing spree and haven't fired a shot with the alleged 'attacking genius' behind Penrith's GF appearance last year. There is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that a 'black and white' approach to running a club does not guarantee success, nor does it mean failure. There are too many shades of grey to simply approach things from a 'we are failing' so lets sack everyone and everything will be better tomorrow.

Blooding rookies, moving players into different positions, getting rid of stock, etc. is not going to change things. The problems we are having concern so many variables that one solution is not going to change overnight. This same squad can turn it around. Des can turn it around. This sort of thing happens in RL all the time.

Take a guy like DCE for example. He hasn't suddenly forgotten how to play RL. He captained QLD to a series win last year and played really well. The reason he is struggling and the reason our attack is faltering is because we have no 9. There is absolutely nothing for DCE or Foz to play off the back of at the moment, hence they look ordinary. We need deception around the ruck to hold up markers and generate quick play-the-balls, then you'll see DCE and Foz run into some form. Backrowers are also going to look pretty ordinary because they too require ruck speed to punch into holes off the halves on the edges. At the moment, there are no holes. The flow on effect is the errors and forced passes and desperate plays because things just aren't clicking in the middle. Then the confidence crisis kicks in and you just keep finding ways to shoot yourself in the foot.

To compound things, we have no Tom. He will be back though. If we had Manase, we'd be doing better in the middle. Maybe Lawton will help improve things around the ruck. There is hope. I've even seen Parker play well when things are going our way. He is no world beater but he can hold his own on a good day. Those good days will come again. We are just a team down on confidence and down on players in key positions and the flow on effect of that is evident in the first three weeks of our season.

Keep the faith.

I agree. Rugby League is a funny game. You have sides winning the spoon, then the following year making the finals with basically same side. Last year I watch one of Manlys great wins against Canberra with a depleted side showing grit, determination and courage. Same players that are horribly out of form and down on confidence at the moment. Titans started last year horrendous. Then they finished the year winning 7 out of 8 to almost make the semis.

So much depends on confidence, and playing for one another with self belief. We haven't played well, or at full strength for so long. Team is in the worst rut I can remember. They seem lost, no confidence, no belief because they haven't won in so long. They can turn it around though. You see it happen all the time in footy what a couple of back to back wins can do. Players start to enjoy the footy again and regain confidence. I expected a rough start to the year, and knew it was going to be a tough year. Just hope we can get a couple of wins in the coming weeks, and Tom stays injury free the remainder if the year and see what happens.

I do feel Parker, Goweski, Croker, Boyle, Tafua however will not be getting contract renewals. Marty, probably the right call, but feel now he may lose all motivation. Hopefully we can stay competitive somehow to keep him interested, as he may just throw the dummy out the cot

 

[Snake]

Some of what you say is true, but to blame all of our woes on Croker is a bit of a stretch. Yes he isn't the greatest hooker getting around but there are some other seriously underperforming players in this team.

I'm still trying to work out what Walkers role in our attack is ?? he is playing in the line like a second 5/8. Looks clunky to me.

Schuster managed to create a few line breaks and look a little dangerous, so our dummy half wasn't inhibiting him too badly

Yes it'd be nice to have Fainu and I have little doubt we would improve if he was our 9, but I think we should still be competing better than we are with Croker or Cust at 9. Our attack just looks clunky, disjointed and lacks execution. Too much sideways. Seems to me all our attack was spun around Turbo being there, without him we look lost for ideas.

It’s not a stretch at all. They are under performing because they are playing off the back of nothing.
Too much sideways is because there is nothing to play with in front so it is dish off to the guy next to you.
There is a reason why the best teams have good 9s.

according to stats, Croker has run 5 times this year for 35 metres. If you don’t think that puts pressure on the rest of the team, you need your head checked.
Not only that, when he isn’t running, it’s not as if he is engaging markers, he is literally passing the ball off the ground. There is no shape to anything he is doing.

I have also seen a play book, as in ‘set plays’ and pretty much everything and I mean everything is about holding up defenders to create space somewhere else. The entire modern game relies on it.
You watch all teams, even when they ruck it out one off deep in their own end, they’ll use a decoy runner before passing deep to a winger to take a hit up. Point is, if we aren’t engaging defenders in the middle of the field, you can bet we aren’t causing the edges any concerns.

 

[Snake]

I guarantee when we get a win, this will be the type of post that starts popping up:

“JetSki should be on the fringe of Soo”
“Parker is the best defensive centre in the comp”
“Daly is worth 1.2 mil”
“Tent is best young prop in game”
“Aloiai could be buy of the year”

the bulk of this forum is knee jerk without really analysing the context behind everything.

 

[maxta]

It’s not a stretch at all. They are under performing because they are playing off the back of nothing.
Too much sideways is because there is nothing to play with in front so it is dish off to the guy next to you.
There is a reason why the best teams have good 9s.

according to stats, Croker has run 5 times this year for 35 metres. If you don’t think that puts pressure on the rest of the team, you need your head checked.
Not only that, when he isn’t running, it’s not as if he is engaging markers, he is literally passing the ball off the ground. There is no shape to anything he is doing.

I have also seen a play book, as in ‘set plays’ and pretty much everything and I mean everything is about holding up defenders to create space somewhere else. The entire modern game relies on it.
You watch all teams, even when they ruck it out one off deep in their own, they’ll use a decoy runner before passing deep to a winger to take a hit up.

Very true and the absolute backbone if Manly play the game, as us fans , want to see
It starts 100% from our options and ability in the ruck and having a 9 who can iscolate those markers and push his troops through the middle to gain momentum....and part B, this promotes the run options once the defence is on heels.
Without this, the play becomes lateral and once you lose direct, you lose the plot and the game.

 

[hozza]

I guarantee when we get a win, this will be the type of post that starts popping up:

“JetSki should be on the fringe of Soo”
“Parker is the best defensive centre in the comp”
“Daly is worth 1.2 mil”
“Tent is best young prop in game”
“Aloiai could be buy of the year”

the bulk of this forum is knee jerk without really analysing the context behind everything.

Lol some outrageous comments. Your obviously extremely close to the playing group and staff( staff member? Or volunteer). I get your trying to protect them but your actually doing the opposite. There MUST be accountability, and at the moment there is none. The moment everyone admits there is a problem is the moment you will start to fix it!!

DCE has never been and never will be worth anywhere near 1.2 fuking mil. And just to be clear, no one gives a fuk how he plays for Qld. Reynolds gets 500 to 600k from south and destroys Moneyevans in every aspect of rugby league.

JetSki is going nowhere near Soo.Ever

Lol Parker best defensive centre in the comp? Wow, only in under 16s

To be fair, I do like Aloiai and Tent has potential.

And we don’t need “A Win”, we need a winning season. 12-15 wins in the season. Only then will the pressure be off..

Seriously wake the fuk up

 

[anthonyb1965]

Lol some outrageous comments. Your obviously extremely close to the playing group and staff( staff member? Or volunteer). I get your trying to protect them but your actually doing the opposite. There MUST be accountability, and at the moment there is none. The moment everyone admits there is a problem is the moment you will start to fix it!!

DCE has never been and never will be worth anywhere near 1.2 fuking mil. And just to be clear, no one gives a fuk how he plays for Qld. Reynolds gets 500 to 600k from south and destroys Moneyevans in every aspect of rugby league.

JetSki is going nowhere near Soo.Ever

Lol Parker best defensive centre in the comp? Wow, only in under 16s

To be fair, I do like Aloiai and Tent has potential.

And we don’t need “A Win”, we need a winning season. 12-15 wins in the season. Only then will the pressure be off..

Seriously wake the fuk up

 

[hozza]

Take a selfie @anthonyb1965 ?

 

[BOZO]

Every premiership winning club has had a clean out in its rebuilding stage

 

[KNUCKLES]

Tom to centre... yes! Bring in either Gutho/Hynes/Aekins, and at least when Tom goes down, he will be playing a position that can be far easier covered. I think this is a great long term solution to the Tommy Hammy dilemma. Fullback is too important (if not the most important - with 9) to be messing around with. Recruit a specialist, and when Tom is fit and healthy, one of our edges would be near unstoppable, otherwise our spine and attacking strategy/structures will still be in tact. Well done that is a well-balanced list (and I wouldn't even think we'd need to recruit Fergo)

We all know that Tommy will be a week to week chance of being out.
So why not have a young (fast) fullback fill in for him when he is out? Then go back to 20's or Blacktown or wherever.

Then when Turbo is injured again he jumps back in.

Bring Gutho back. Turbo to centres. Gutho has been a fearless leader at the eels and we could do with him at the back

 

[Jethro]

I would keep Parker as a backup player to be called upon from the BWSE when required because of injury to the NRL side.

 

[Bomb Voyage]

we absolutely do need a clean out

 

[anthonyb1965]

Nope, just pure amazement you would post that!

 

[Eagles4Life]

I guarantee when we get a win, this will be the type of post that starts popping up:

“JetSki should be on the fringe of Soo”
“Parker is the best defensive centre in the comp”
“Daly is worth 1.2 mil”
“Tent is best young prop in game”
“Aloiai could be buy of the year”

the bulk of this forum is knee jerk without really analysing the context behind everything.

My posts after a win would look something like this :

"Jetski is currently on the fringe of being dropped to BWSE."
"Parker's defensive statistics in 2020/21 demonstrate that he is not even close to being the best defensive centre in the comp"
"Daly is paid 1.2 mil, but is only worth half of that right now."
"Tent has the potential to be an outstanding NRL prop in the future"
"Aloiai is our best off-season pickup, and is showing up the many of the others in the Manly pack"

 

[Snake]

Lol some outrageous comments. Your obviously extremely close to the playing group and staff( staff member? Or volunteer). I get your trying to protect them but your actually doing the opposite. There MUST be accountability, and at the moment there is none. The moment everyone admits there is a problem is the moment you will start to fix it!!

DCE has never been and never will be worth anywhere near 1.2 fuking mil. And just to be clear, no one gives a fuk how he plays for Qld. Reynolds gets 500 to 600k from south and destroys Moneyevans in every aspect of rugby league.

JetSki is going nowhere near Soo.Ever

Lol Parker best defensive centre in the comp? Wow, only in under 16s

To be fair, I do like Aloiai and Tent has potential.

And we don’t need “A Win”, we need a winning season. 12-15 wins in the season. Only then will the pressure be off..

Seriously wake the fuk up

haha easy tiger...don't wanna burst an artery.

 

[hozza]

haha easy tiger...don't wanna burst an artery.

Don’t worry about me big guy, just getting started. Drums are beating my friend. Lose to Panthers and Warriors and it will be at fever pitch..

 

[hozza]

Nope, just pure amazement you would post that!

Really? Just uncanny resemblance. Sorry