Poll added - Sea Eagles Everyone in League jersey

[47MVEagle]

It's usually your foot in there.

Get back to eating crayons mate, your value-add factor is now less than zero

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Hey I am happy to take up your silly challenges but you are conflating your points etc as you usually do.
Because a player does not want to wear a certain jersey does not give the right for people like you to call them bigots as you have judgingly done. Not Wearing a jersey does not imply people don’t accept gay people it may mean they don’t want to celebrate it…. There is a difference. Acceptance is one thing but celebrating is another… people should have a right to choose.
Even people like Ian Roberts did not feel the need to go there ( labelling them as bigots as you did!!!
the jersey only has true value if people willingly wear it. Forcing it upon them is wrong and it does not help anyone….especially the people most in need…

Well thanks for answering in an open spirit of inquiry, and I’ll try to reciprocate. And I do agree with you about forcing people. So how about I just refer to the Manly rebels as ‘people strongly opposed to celebrating the LGBTi community’.

Just a couple of points of clarification – who do you mean by “the people most in need”? Also, when you say “even people like Ian Roberts”- there aren’t any, are there? Isn’t that kind of the point of all this?

 

[Red Pill]

Well thanks for answering in an open spirit of inquiry, and I’ll try to reciprocate. And I do agree with you about forcing people. So how about I just refer to the Manly rebels as ‘people strongly opposed to celebrating the LGBTi community’.

Just a couple of points of clarification – who do you mean by “the people most in need”? Also, when you say “even people like Ian Roberts”- there aren’t any, are there? Isn’t that kind of the point of all this?

I mean actual people that identify as one of the letters in the rainbow. Ian Roberts is one of them. These are the people that need acceptance.. and need society to help them like many other groups in the world.. This needs to come from education and free will not making footy players wear a rainbow jersey they may not want too and then calling them bigots and saying it should be forced into their contracts. ( understand your comment above on this) We should aim to be a tolerant society…this includes people who may not appear to be tolerant the way idealist want them to be. We all come to our own conclusions and hopefully grow in our own ways through life…. Also as I said what you are willing to accept and what you actually choose to celebrate from your free will are not always the same… religion will always celebrate behaviour that leads to new life this does not mean that it can not accept alternatives.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Well sounds like we are in agreement that LGBTi people should be accepted. I’m not quite clear though on whether you are saying they already are accepted in rugby league, although just not celebrated by everyone in the game. Roberts of course is very strong on the point there is not acceptance in the game, not sure if you are disagreeing with that or not.

If by chance we agree that gays should be accepted in rugby league, and also agree that they are not yet accepted - then we’d come to the hard part. What, if anything, NRL and Manly should do about that (and I know some are saying the game should do nothing).

 

[Red Pill]

Well sounds like we are in agreement that LGBTi people should be accepted. I’m not quite clear though on whether you are saying they already are accepted in rugby league, although just not celebrated by everyone in the game. Roberts of course is very strong on the point there is not acceptance in the game, not sure if you are disagreeing with that or not.

If by chance we agree that gays should be accepted in rugby league, and also agree that they are not yet accepted - then we’d come to the hard part. What, if anything, NRL and Manly should do about that (and I know some are saying the game should do nothing).

The NRL and the club to can do plenty if they choose too like education for the players etc. I just believe that this needs to be on done in a way that allows players to come to their own conclusions. Like leading a horse to water but not forcing them to drink…. And yes peoples religious believes should be respected within the scope of the law… so this means for example a Christian/ Muslim person can choose to accept gay people but not be forced to openly have to celebrate it.

 

[Andrew..]

I mean actual people that identify as one of the letters in the rainbow. Ian Roberts is one of them. These are the people that need acceptance.. and need society to help them like many other groups in the world.. This needs to come from education and free will not making footy players wear a rainbow jersey they may not want too and then calling them bigots and saying it should be forced into their contracts. ( understand your comment above on this) We should aim to be a tolerant society…this includes people who may not appear to be tolerant the way idealist want them to be. We all come to our own conclusions and hopefully grow in our own ways through life…. Also as I said what you are willing to accept and what you actually choose to celebrate from your free will are not always the same… religion will always celebrate behaviour that leads to new life this does not mean that it can not accept alternatives.

Much of what you say is fair and measured but members of the LBGTQ deserve acceptance more so than need acceptance. Its a subtle difference but an important one nevertheless.

 

[HK_Eagle]

Hey I am happy to take up your silly challenges but you are conflating your points etc as you usually do.
Because a player does not want to wear a certain jersey does not give the right for people like you to call them bigots as you have judgingly done. Not Wearing a jersey does not imply people don’t accept gay people it may mean they don’t want to celebrate it…. There is a difference. Acceptance is one thing but celebrating is another… people should have a right to choose.
Even people like Ian Roberts did not feel the need to go there ( labelling them as bigots as you did!!!
the jersey only has true value if people willingly wear it. Forcing it upon them is wrong and it does not help anyone….especially the people most in need…

OK, just need to pull you up on this part. I don't recall the club asking the 7 to "celebrate" homosexuality. They were asked to wear a jersey.

This is where things get tricky. We can all argue back and forth choosing our own verb. Ultimately, those chosen words are used to frame a story. They help manifest the subtle (or not so subtle) agendas behind the words.

So, do we use the word celebrate, promote, support, acknowledge, respect, agree with, empower, accept, endorse, protest ... etc...??? They are all correct within their own frames and none of them can claim ownership of the an absolute truth. I think we all need these conversations to understand each others' agenda. That takes time and I believe it's good we've started this process.

 

[Dinga7]

OK, just need to pull you up on this part. I don't recall the club asking the 7 to "celebrate" homosexuality. They were asked to wear a jersey.

But the rainbow colors represent that community/homosexuality so how can you say that...I can assure you none of the players are against inclusiveness they are allowed to play in NRL work in any company or organisation just like everyone else however it doesn't mean people have to agree with how they live and support their cause.

 

[HK_Eagle]

But the rainbow colors represent that community so how can you say that...I can assure you none of the players are against inclusiveness they are allowed to play in NRL work in any company or organisation just like everyone else however it doesn't mean people have to agree how they live and support their cause.

Sorry, Dinga. I just finished editing/adding to that original post before you quoted.

How can i say they were asked to "wear the jersey"? They were, weren't they? Do you have inside information that they were asked to celebrate homosexuality? To use the word "celebrate" is loaded and simply chosen to support one's own agenda. You could easily argue that the players were simply asked to acknowledge the LGBTIQ community and their struggles by wearing the jersey.

 

[Dinga7]

Sorry, Dinga. I just finished editing/adding to that original post before you quoted.

How can i say they were asked to "wear the jersey"? They were, weren't they? Do you have inside information that they were asked to celebrate homosexuality? To use the word "celebrate" is loaded and simply chosen to support one's own agenda. You could easily argue that the players were simply asked to acknowledge the LGBTIQ community and their struggles by wearing the jersey.

No I don't have inside information however no Christian denomination will support that cause...The Club can support that cause if they feel it's necessary in other ways during the week for players who are happy to do so rather than enforcing thart cause on game day were by it puts certain players in an awkward position...The club did the wrong thing to the players not the players doing the the wrong thing to the club in my opinion.

I hope this situation never occurs Again !!

 

[Dinga7]

Sorry, Dinga. I just finished editing/adding to that original post before you quoted.

How can i say they were asked to "wear the jersey"? They were, weren't they? Do you have inside information that they were asked to celebrate homosexuality? To use the word "celebrate" is loaded and simply chosen to support one's own agenda. You could easily argue that the players were simply asked to acknowledge the LGBTIQ community and their struggles by wearing the jersey.

No I don't have inside information however no Christian denomination will support that cause...The Club can support that cause if they feel it's necessary in other ways during the week for players who are happy to do so rather than enforcing thart cause on game day were by it puts certain players in an awkward position...The club did the wrong thing to the players not the players doing the the wrong thing to the club in my opinion.

I hope this situation never occurs Again !!

 

[HK_Eagle]

No I don't have inside information however no Christian denomination will support that cause...The Club can support that cause if they feel it's necessary in other ways during the week for players who are happy to do so rather than enforcing thart cause on game day were by it puts certain players in an awkward position...The club did the wrong thing t9 the players not the players doing the the wrong thing to the club in my opinion.

I hope this situation never occurs Again !!

Well, you see, Dinga... that's the problem. You are happy to "support" the cause if it's in the background and not up front. That is the very reason there is this cause. It is a group that has been marginalised and invisible. The whole point of the cause is to bring them to the forefront and let them be seen and acknowledged.

Certain religious groups, certain players or certain posters here may not like that. However, that view is getting more difficult to maintain in contemporary times as society moves towards acceptance. This issue is front and centre nowadays and cannot be brushed aside as easily as it has been in the past. You say certain players should not be put in an "awkward position"... but you neglect to address the issue that people in these communities have been dealing with "awkward positions" all their lives.

I agree that the club stuffed up in the execution. I hope they have taken the lessons and move towards a more thoughtful, considered and sensitive approach moving forward. I also hope all players and fans can be engaged in the same considered respectful approach.

 

[Dinga7]

He

Well, you see, Dinga... that's the problem. You are happy to "support" the cause if it's in the background and not up front. That is the very reason there is this cause. It is a group that has been marginalised and invisible. The whole point of the cause is to bring them to the forefront and let them be seen and acknowledged.

Certain religious groups, certain players or certain posters here may not like that. However, that view is getting more difficult to maintain in contemporary times as society moves towards acceptance. This issue is front and centre nowadays and cannot be brushed aside as easily as it has been in the past. You say certain players should not be put in an "awkward position"... but you neglect to address the issue that people in these communities have been dealing with "awkward positions" all their lives.

I agree that the club stuffed up in the execution. I hope they have taken the lessons and move towards a more thoughtful, considered and sensitive approach moving forward. I also hope all players and fans can be engaged in the same considered respectful approach.

Hey HK Eagle enjoying the respectful discussion..However I'm not happy to support that cause..Our Mighty Sea Eagles should just focus on our home and away Jersey's and that's it...Last weekend was the women in League Round and we sabotaged it..The Gotch ya for Life cause we are all on the same page as suicide is a terrible thing we can all hopefully help prevent/ reduce in some way... HOWEVER the LGBT/Rainbow thing has no place in our game as its simply to divisive.

Did you watch the the Panthers/Storm game about players 10 players knelt down and prayed at full time none of those players would have worn that Jersey its simply to controversial right or wrong.

All the Best Brother

And go tthose Mighty Sea Eagles

 

[Andrew..]

No I don't have inside information however no Christian denomination will support that cause...The Club can support that cause if they feel it's necessary in other ways during the week for players who are happy to do so rather than enforcing thart cause on game day were by it puts certain players in an awkward position...The club did the wrong thing to the players not the players doing the the wrong thing to the club in my opinion.

I hope this situation never occurs Again !!

Good aye Dinga, I'm not 100% sure but I think you will find that as of September 2018 the Uniting Church (which is a Christian based church) supports and provides church based weddings for same sex couples.

 

[HK_Eagle]

He

Hey HK Eagle enjoying the respectful discussion..However I'm not happy to support that cause..Our Mighty Sea Eagles should just focus on our home and away Jersey's and that's it...Last weekend was the women in League Round and we sabotaged it..The Gotch ya for Life cause we are all on the same page as suicide is a terrible thing we can all hopefully help prevent/ reduce in some way... HOWEVER the LGBT/Rainbow thing has no place in our game as its simply to divisive.

Did you watch the the Panthers/Storm game about players 10 players knelt down and prayed at full time none of those players would have worn that Jersey its simply to controversial right or wrong.

All the Best Brother

And go tthose Mighty Sea Eagles

Also appreciate the respectful discourse, Dinga. Cheers.

I understand it is a sensitive and divisive topic, but personally, I don't think that should stop us from tackling it. Growth and development has never been easy. I do understand and respect some may not be ready or prepared for that yet.

 

[HK_Eagle]

Good aye Dinga, I'm not 100% sure but I think you will find that as of September 2018 the Uniting Church (which is a Christian based church) supports and provides church based weddings for same sex couples.

I believe there are quite a number of "liberal christian denominations" that accept same sex marriages.

 

[Andrew..]

I believe there are quite a number of "liberal christian denominations" that accept same sex marriages.

Sometimes; change challenges our core beliefs but the referendum on same sex marriage was proof that the majority of Australian adults understood the need for a more inclusive society.

 

[Red Pill]

OK, just need to pull you up on this part. I don't recall the club asking the 7 to "celebrate" homosexuality. They were asked to wear a jersey.

This is where things get tricky. We can all argue back and forth choosing our own verb. Ultimately, those chosen words are used to frame a story. They help manifest the subtle (or not so subtle) agendas behind the words.

So, do we use the word celebrate, promote, support, acknowledge, respect, agree with, empower, accept, endorse, protest ... etc...??? They are all correct within their own frames and none of them can claim ownership of the an absolute truth. I think we all need these conversations to understand each others' agenda. That takes time and I believe it's good we've started this process.

Thanks for the insights, sure semantics and equivocal differences can be a rabbit hole within themselves. What I was getting at is the participatory part of religion specifically the Christian religion eg. by going to church, assembling together and etc or singing, praying and all that kind of stuff. The sum of this is a kind of celebration/ participation in what binds these group minded people together. If I start to reduce all the aspects above to their individual units you get something different say like just turning up or assemblying, or just singing a song etc etc. back to the point just wearing a jersey.
In my view there is more to this than just wearing a jersey as a jersey is an instrument that binds the team together with all the other ritual parts of being in a team. So my point is these people can accept homosexuality but just don’t want it to be a core ingredient of what binds them together. Ultimately their shared beliefs bind them together but participation and ritual is a vehicle by which it happens. This participation/ celebration is very big part of religion and has respective meaning. This is a lot deeper than I wanted to go btw but this is what I mean by celebrating it.

 

[Red Pill]

“Certain religious groups, certain players or certain posters here may not like that. However, that view is getting more difficult to maintain in contemporary times as society moves towards acceptance. “



Let’s hope that people aren’t forced to simply comply in this way. If these people maintain their beliefs but still operate within the law as they do… should they be marginalised as a kind of punishment? Very interested in the agendas in relation to this part…. Also very interested in also understanding your definition of acceptance? I happily voted to support gay marriage in the referendum but that does not mean I want to wear a t-shirt that celebrates/ promotes it or have my employer force me to wear one.. People have a right to their sexual desires and choose who they want to love. It’s not anyones business but their own…. This should not imply we have to have say for example a gay sex celebration day or more aptly have to be forced to virtue signal our acceptance of it.

 

[Budgie]

Did you watch the the Panthers/Storm game about players 10 players knelt down and prayed at full time none of those players would have worn that Jersey its simply to controversial right or wrong.

Devil's Advocate.

We are a secular not a Christian (or any other religious) society.

In the latest census, just 43.9% of the population identified as Christian.

What if the 56.1% decided that this whole display of religion simply had to stop? That they've barely coped with having to drive past churches every day in every suburb, a constant reminder of the myriad of attrocities inflicted by the churches, attrocities which have led to a great deal of suffering and suicide.
They've said nothing about that but, hang on a sec!, what's this stuff creeping into Rugby League? Like all agenda driven activity, it started simply enough with the kiss to the sky after scoring a try. But then, what are all these crosses and Gods and Jesuses written on their wristbands, pushing their way of life in the face of those with a different way of life?

With the door slightly open they've pushed it further. Now all those who've been victims of these churches and the rest of us who have witnessed their suffering have to endure their further pushing of their agendas on television and at the ground with their very public prayer circles?
There is no getting away from their shoving of their way of life down our throats. We come to watch footy. Just footy. And suddenly it's something else altogether. We don't deserve this. We just wanna watch footy.
See?