Poll added - Sea Eagles Everyone in League jersey

[Red Pill]

Devil's Advocate.

We are a secular not a Christian (or any other religious) society.

In the latest census, just 43.9% of the population identified as Christian.

What if the 56.1% decided that this whole display of religion simply had to stop? That they've barely coped with having to drive past churches every day in every suburb, a constant reminder of the myriad of attrocities inflicted by the churches, attrocities which have led to a great deal of suffering and suicide.
They've said nothing about that but, hang on a sec!, what's this stuff creeping into Rugby League? Like all agenda driven activity, it started simply enough with the kiss to the sky after scoring a try. But then, what are all these crosses and Gods and Jesuses written on their wristbands, pushing their way of life in the face of those with a different way of life?

With the door slightly open they've pushed it further. Now all those who've been victims of these churches and the rest of us who have witnessed their suffering have to endure their further pushing of their agendas on television and at the ground with their very public prayer circles?
There is no getting away from their shoving of their way of life down our throats. We come to watch footy. Just footy. And suddenly it's something else altogether. We don't deserve this. We just wanna watch footy.
See?

I get this is a devil advocate view.

Anyway you kind of address your own point by the fact that the numbers are dropping I.e. below 50%. So the PR is not working I guess if that is what it is supposed to be… post try celebrating is in it self an interesting phenomenon.
Let’s hope we don’t really think that 50% plus of population believing in one thing means they simply by default dictate to the rest of the population on a particular matter 🙂. Very scary thought if this was the case.

Btw I am not sure comparing sexual desires vs religious belief is an apple to apple comparison. There are also a lot of gay Christians you know……

 

[manly al]

Guess that the analogies could go on and on and just note other instances such as N F L footy players kneeling before games to acknowledge the Black Lives matter theme . Not condoned by their head organization but their belief or sense that they have a right to express them self in respect of that specific issue . Not all of their team mates would necessarily support that type of expression but games still went ahead . Refusing to identify with a particular theme by not participating in a sporting event goes to another level again but right or wrong from whatever perspective , the Manly 10 [ and obviously again could have occurred in any number of other N R l clubs ] decided to take a public stand . And on the same premise that they have a basic right to express them self or in relation to their own set of beliefs . In an ideal world , they should have had no problem with wearing the Rainbow jersey and the inclusiveness theme or whatever but really has to be accepted that they almost certainly do have genuine reasons and reservations . Then the really contentious matter of being dictated to or forced to comply with whatever social or community issue .Maybe the Manly club has gained a higher level of public support in still going ahead with the inclusiveness theme and of course not such a bad outcome but still a lot of work to do behind the scenes to get a mutually acceptable arrangement next time round .

 

[Dinga7]

Good aye Dinga, I'm not 100% sure but I think you will find that as of September 2018 the Uniting Church (which is a Christian based church) supports and provides church based weddings for same sex couples.

Yes I believe you are correct on that. Its not biblical though.
Unfortunaty even churches themselves stray away and within many Christian denominations there are different views/interpretations of the bible.

Some Churches do preach/teach the wrong doctrine and its not necessarily deliberate either.. Sadly one day there will be consequences for it.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Btw I am not sure comparing sexual desires vs religious belief is an apple to apple comparison. There are also a lot of gay Christians you know……

Good point, RP. But do you think are they accepted in their own faith? Or maybe they are accepted, but just not celebrated. (Although the more I think about this distinction, the less I understand it.)

Meanwhile! … I see NSW has become the 2nd state to ban the swastika. Is this tokenistic? Or a powerful statement of values this state rejects? (What values, they aren’t even described in the Bill! However at a guess ...the Nazi’s were most notorious for their aggressive nationalism and racism, their persecution of jews, communists, intellectuals … and homosexuals.

 

[47MVEagle]

Yes I believe you are correct on that. Its not biblical though.
Unfortunaty even churches themselves stray away and within many Christian denominations there are different views/interpretations of the bible.

Some Churches do preach/teach the wrong doctrine and its not necessarily deliberate either.. Sadly one day there will be consequences for it.

You can also find parts of the bible supporting slavery, burning witches, stoning adulterers, raping women, using physical violence to control your wife, etc. but somehow society has moved past such antiquated ideals.

 

[Red Pill]

Good point, RP. But do you think are they accepted in their own faith? Or maybe they are accepted, but just not celebrated. (Although the more I think about this distinction, the less I understand it.)

Meanwhile! … I see NSW has become the 2nd state to ban the swastika. Is this tokenistic? Or a powerful statement of values this state rejects? (What values, they aren’t even described in the Bill! However at a guess ...the Nazi’s were most notorious for their aggressive nationalism and racism, their persecution of jews, communists, intellectuals … and homosexuals.

I think homosexuality to some degree is accepted let’s face it there are a lot LGBTIQ Christians.
Here is an example of what I mean. Just an example:

‘Welcoming, but not affirming’: being gay and Christian

New research has found that LGBT Christians and pastors alike must grapple with difficult spiritual questions.

theconversation.com

We live in interesting times SER8 some may look back it can call it the age of activism driven by the rampant growth of communication technology amongst other things. My personal belief is that at least just as much emphasis should be placed on our own self improvement rather than just than this external focus on others. Maybe a better balance would solve alot of problems.

As you would likely agree Governments do alot of things to appease the masses through symbolism especially when in the case of NSW…there is an election next March.
One could suggest the Nazi movement was a case of a mob driven ideology that possessed the masses literally where people surrendered their souls metaphorically to it. But sure the symbol is important. Getting to my point above about the focus on self improvement and how the little things we can do to slowly change things… can make a difference. Have you seen the movie called a Hidden Life? It’s based upon a true story set in Nazi Germany and tells you a lot about the down side of group think and compelling overtures that go with it amongst many others things.

Anyway I would like to ask you a question or two if you don’t mind.
What does acceptance mean to you? Do you think compulsion should be used in any way to bring about this acceptance? Obviously compulsion is necessary when some one is breaking the law..but I mean outside of this.
And if you have watched the movie I mentioned above what did you think of it? The main character was a devout Christian btw.
Lastly what would you like Manly do about this? Not just gay rights but all minority group needs.

 

[HK_Eagle]

Thanks for the insights, sure semantics and equivocal differences can be a rabbit hole within themselves. What I was getting at is the participatory part of religion specifically the Christian religion eg. by going to church, assembling together and etc or singing, praying and all that kind of stuff. The sum of this is a kind of celebration/ participation in what binds these group minded people together. If I start to reduce all the aspects above to their individual units you get something different say like just turning up or assemblying, or just singing a song etc etc. back to the point just wearing a jersey.
In my view there is more to this than just wearing a jersey as a jersey is an instrument that binds the team together with all the other ritual parts of being in a team. So my point is these people can accept homosexuality but just don’t want it to be a core ingredient of what binds them together. Ultimately their shared beliefs bind them together but participation and ritual is a vehicle by which it happens. This participation/ celebration is very big part of religion and has respective meaning. This is a lot deeper than I wanted to go btw but this is what I mean by celebrating it.

Thanks Red Pill. I love that for some people the gathering at their church is viewed as a celebration. That sounds like such a positive inspiring mindset.

"...wearing a jersey is an instrument that binds the team together with all the other ritual parts of being in a team."

So, why is it OK to wear a sponsor emblazoned across that jersey, yet incorporating the rainbow is not? Is URM a core ingredient that binds them together as a footy team? Of course not. Just as a rainbow on the jersey is no more a core ingredient of that team. These are signifiers placed on the jersey to communicate a message(s) to an audience. This has nothing to do with the footy team being able to bond or play footy UNLESS, a player(s) chooses to make an issue with the signifier. Then, that individual player is stepping away from footy, away from the team, and away from its rituals to make a social political statement. IMO, the 7 are making a social comment about their views regarding the cause.

 

[Red Pill]

Thanks Red Pill. I love that for some people the gathering at their church is viewed as a celebration. That sounds like such a positive inspiring mindset.

"...wearing a jersey is an instrument that binds the team together with all the other ritual parts of being in a team."

So, why is it OK to wear a sponsor emblazoned across that jersey, yet incorporating the rainbow is not? Is URM a core ingredient that binds them together as a footy team? Of course not. Just as a rainbow on the jersey is no more a core ingredient of that team. These are signifiers placed on the jersey to communicate a message(s) to an audience. This has nothing to do with the footy team being able to bond or play footy UNLESS, a player(s) chooses to make an issue with the signifier. Then, that individual player is stepping away from footy, away from the team, and away from its rituals to make a social political statement. IMO, the 7 are making a social comment about their views regarding the cause.

Understand I guess the advertisements don’t conflict with thier religion. If they were Muslim it maybe would be different as they have strict rules about gambling and alcohol. Nothing about the Manly emblem would conflict with any religion as far as I know.
Mate your first comment appears to be judgmental about why people would want to congregate at a church. That is a fundamental from what I understand…

 

[Lyonstomenzies]

Devil's Advocate.

We are a secular not a Christian (or any other religious) society.

In the latest census, just 43.9% of the population identified as Christian.

What if the 56.1% decided that this whole display of religion simply had to stop? That they've barely coped with having to drive past churches every day in every suburb, a constant reminder of the myriad of attrocities inflicted by the churches, attrocities which have led to a great deal of suffering and suicide.
They've said nothing about that but, hang on a sec!, what's this stuff creeping into Rugby League? Like all agenda driven activity, it started simply enough with the kiss to the sky after scoring a try. But then, what are all these crosses and Gods and Jesuses written on their wristbands, pushing their way of life in the face of those with a different way of life?

With the door slightly open they've pushed it further. Now all those who've been victims of these churches and the rest of us who have witnessed their suffering have to endure their further pushing of their agendas on television and at the ground with their very public prayer circles?
There is no getting away from their shoving of their way of life down our throats. We come to watch footy. Just footy. And suddenly it's something else altogether. We don't deserve this. We just wanna watch footy.
See?

Handmaids Tale - coming to a Rugby League club near you soon. 😆

 

[HK_Eagle]

Yes I believe you are correct on that. Its not biblical though.
Unfortunaty even churches themselves stray away and within many Christian denominations there are different views/interpretations of the bible.

Some Churches do preach/teach the wrong doctrine and its not necessarily deliberate either.. Sadly one day there will be consequences for it.

Wrong according to whom? This is core. It's about dominating viewpoints and power relationships. There is no absolute truth in any religion or denomination. There is just human interpretation.

 

[HK_Eagle]

Understand I guess the advertisements don’t conflict with thier religion. If they were Muslim it maybe would be different as they have strict rules about gambling and alcohol. Nothing about the Manly emblem would conflict with any religion as far as I know.
Mate your first comment appears to be judgmental about why people would want to congregate at a church. That is a fundamental from what I understand…

Sorry, Red. It's the difficulty of communicating in written form. To clarify, that first sentence was not intended as a negative dig at you or anything you said. I genuinely like that some people approach their church experience as a celebration. I imagine there are plenty who may not necessarily experience it that way and could interpret it as a whole lot of different things... from a chore to enlightening.

Again, whether the signifier was against their personal beliefs or not, that is irrelevant to the binding of a footy team and the rituals that are relevant to playing as a footy team.

 

[Woodsie]

Sorry, Dinga. I just finished editing/adding to that original post before you quoted.

How can i say they were asked to "wear the jersey"? They were, weren't they? Do you have inside information that they were asked to celebrate homosexuality? To use the word "celebrate" is loaded and simply chosen to support one's own agenda. You could easily argue that the players were simply asked to acknowledge the LGBTIQ community and their struggles by wearing the jersey.

Before the petticoat wearers start screaming offense ... my point is one of being interested in the meanings and connotations that different words "adopt" with different "agendas" ....

so .. Q) .. How does the word "Pride" used in the most common reference to the rainbow .. eg Gay Pride ... change the number of possible interpretations ...

 

[HK_Eagle]

Before the petticoat wearers start screaming offense ... my point is one of being interested in the meanings and connotations that different words "adopt" with different "agendas" ....

so .. Q) .. How does the word "Pride" used in the most common reference to the rainbow .. eg Gay Pride ... change the number of possible interpretations ...

The word "Pride" will have as many interpretations as there are people. Even in the context of the rainbow and "Gay Pride", individuals will interpret its meaning based on their own life experiences and beliefs that form their world view. I'm not personally a member of the LGBTIQ, so I expect my interpretation will differ from somebody who is... just as it will differ from others who do not identify with the community. Nevertheless, there will also be overlap and mutual understanding. That's necessary for us to function as social creatures. The challenge is to navigate through the innumerable interpretations and build an understanding that brings us all closer... IMO.

 

[Woodsie]

I get this is a devil advocate view.

Anyway you kind of address your own point by the fact that the numbers are dropping I.e. below 50%. So the PR is not working I guess if that is what it is supposed to be… post try celebrating is in it self an interesting phenomenon.
Let’s hope we don’t really think that 50% plus of population believing in one thing means they simply by default dictate to the rest of the population on a particular matter 🙂. Very scary thought if this was the case.

Btw I am not sure comparing sexual desires vs religious belief is an apple to apple comparison. There are also a lot of gay Christians you know……

interesting fact ... for no real reason ...

1) The most popular baby boy's name in Australia is ....NOAH ...(good grief, can't make this stuff up)

PSS ... muslim pop in Aust. has doubled in 10 years . ... not sure how many of them would have worn the jersey either ...

 

[Red Pill]

Sorry, Red. It's the difficulty of communicating in written form. To clarify, that first sentence was not intended as a negative dig at you or anything you said. I genuinely like that some people approach their church experience as a celebration. I imagine there are plenty who may not necessarily experience it that way and could interpret it as a whole lot of different things... from a chore to enlightening.

Again, whether the signifier was against their personal beliefs or not, that is irrelevant to the binding of a footy team and the rituals that are relevant to playing as a footy team.

Thanks for explaining. It is limited way to communicate…it is very complicated. At the end of the day if is just about playing sport and celebrating competitive spirit it is simple and can be inclusive to all! But if you decide you need to broadcast some views above others than it ironically losses some of its multiplicity that allows it to be so inclusive as opposed to just letting it be about sports. That was the whole point about the creation of the Olympic Games to bring people together with minimal politics…

 

[47MVEagle]

Before the petticoat wearers start screaming offense ... my point is one of being interested in the meanings and connotations that different words "adopt" with different "agendas" ....

so .. Q) .. How does the word "Pride" used in the most common reference to the rainbow .. eg Gay Pride ... change the number of possible interpretations ...

You're throwing around accusations of people who disagree with you of being hystrionic "petticoat wearers" but you're carrying on like a sweetie wifey yourself.

 

[Lyonstomenzies]

6% of Australians are LGQT.

That 6% have have some of the highest disposable income in the county.

They also spend there money on products and with companies that align with their values.

Next year Australia will host World Pride in Sydney from the 17th August till March 5th. Expected international tourism figures expect 500k attendees.

It will be the biggest event Sydney has hosted since the Olympic Games in 2000

Hopefully my beloved Sea Eagles are over their homophobe views by this stage as they won’t be able to escape the rainbows for those weeks.

 

[BOZO]

Next year Australia will host World Pride in Sydney from the 17th August till March 5th. Expected international tourism figures expect 500k attendees.



Hopefully my beloved Sea Eagles are over their homophobe views by this stage as they won’t be able to escape the rainbows for those weeks.

Proud Perspective time .....

The proud Manly Maroon and White colours have always represented equality and respect for all
And all players have worn them with pride

We are all proud of our backround and beliefs and we are all unified in our indiscriminative Maroon and white colours

To the Manly Marketing Muppets ....
Dont fck around with our colours

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Anyway I would like to ask you a question or two if you don’t mind.
What does acceptance mean to you? Do you think compulsion should be used in any way to bring about this acceptance? Obviously compulsion is necessary when some one is breaking the law..but I mean outside of this.
And if you have watched the movie I mentioned above what did you think of it? The main character was a devout Christian btw.
Lastly what would you like Manly do about this? Not just gay rights but all minority group needs.

In answer - (and good questions)
Acceptance - to me just means don't discriminate against people, treat people as equal

Compulsion? sure, i think it should be illegal to discriminate against people on the basis of their sexuality. In addition, for years the employment contracts I've signed have included requirements to treat people equally and avoid any sort of discrimination.

The movie - sorry I haven't seen that movie you mention.

What should Manly do?
1. don't pretend the issue will go away
2. raise the issue at NRL. By 'the issue' I mean the significant increase in NRL of players who may be religious or have other cultural beliefs that conflict with NRL core beliefs about inclusivity.
3. Keep the dialogue going in some way within the club. Lectures and external course providers apparently have little or no effect so it would have to be by inviting people from religious and gay groups to speak with players, encourage open discourse, and try to develop some mutual understanding??? Won't be a simple or quick process but needs to begin, I would think

 

[Red Pill]

In answer - (and good questions)
Acceptance - to me just means don't discriminate against people, treat people as equal

Compulsion? sure, i think it should be illegal to discriminate against people on the basis of their sexuality. In addition, for years the employment contracts I've signed have included requirements to treat people equally and avoid any sort of discrimination.

The movie - sorry I haven't seen that movie you mention.

What should Manly do?
1. don't pretend the issue will go away
2. raise the issue at NRL. By 'the issue' I mean the significant increase in NRL of players who may be religious or have other cultural beliefs that conflict with NRL core beliefs about inclusivity.
3. Keep the dialogue going in some way within the club. Lectures and external course providers apparently have little or no effect so it would have to be by inviting people from religious and gay groups to speak with players, encourage open discourse, and try to develop some mutual understanding??? Won't be a simple or quick process but needs to begin, I would think

Thanks understand the intention behind your views but it’s so much more complicated.
I mean what do you mean by treating people equally? Could this mean that as a straight male I will in the future need to consider people who indentify as women but still posses male genitalia as prospective sexual partners because I should not discriminate against them as they are still by law women? I know this is an extreme 🙂 but how far is this all supposed to go? Sure I suspect footy players sign contracts with the clauses you are referring too. Why do we need to bring sports into politics in the first place? Sports has traditionally been a refuge from politics that enables different people to come together… it was the ultimate inclusive mechanism now we seem to want force people to fall into some nomological order on how they prioritise there morals. It’s kind of divisive in a way. This would be very different if players refused to play with or against certain groups but is so not the case….and mutes your point above about intervention imo. not wanting to wear a rainbow jersey is not deemed as discrimination in any contract I have seen unless we want to be controlling social constructionist and put it in there which is divisive.
In saying all this I agree educating and facilitating education is important and the club should do this…
I guess we still have some fundamental differences but that’s all well and good in a democracy…