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omnipotent beings discussion

MuzztheEagle

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Ok lets hear the arguments against these stats.

Since you asked for it (and because the religious people have given up :)):
Well we can always ask Bill Burr's thought on stats:

I think many Christians would point to the idea that many of these so called non/less religious counties have built their morals and societies around Christian lessons.
But let's also consider the data a bit more and from a different angle.
1582585387498.png
1582586519888.png
Look how badly Muslim countries perform when you compare the two maps. Surely Islam is dragging down the stats presented when you compare religion into a single lump. Is this evidence that Christianity is a fairer and therefor better religion than the others? I'm sure plenty would argue that. Hey, while we're at it, I think we could argue that Protestant countries are better off than Catholic ones. Evidence that Protestants are "true" Christians?
 

manlyfan76

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One problem i see with wealth, is that the islamic countries have all the oil.

Still in the data i posted it shows info for 20 countries.
Not a small sample size.
 

MuzztheEagle

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One problem i see with wealth, is that the islamic countries have all the oil.

Still in the data i posted it shows info for 20 countries.
Not a small sample size.
Ahh (says the true Christian), but you haven't acknowledged the fact that the majority of these so called secular countries reached their current levels of prosperity and equality through the virtues of protestant Christianity! What's more we can see that the breakdown of these societies with the loss of their religion through the increase in things like gang violence and the vanity of internet culture.
You must also consider that such reports aim to show the superiority of these secular states by elevating the value of ideas which go against the very nature of god, even when these actions can lead to the breakdown of family units and irreversible damage to an individual's immortal soul.
 

manlyfan76

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Ahh (says the true Christian), but you haven't acknowledged the fact that the majority of these so called secular countries reached their current levels of prosperity and equality through the virtues of protestant Christianity! What's more we can see that the breakdown of these societies with the loss of their religion through the increase in things like gang violence and the vanity of internet culture.
You must also consider that such reports aim to show the superiority of these secular states by elevating the value of ideas which go against the very nature of god, even when these actions can lead to the breakdown of family units and irreversible damage to an individual's immortal soul.
On the surface maybe.

You may claim it but the bottom ten countries in my graph can also blame religon for their woes could they not?

A bigger point that i have not seen discussed here is a view im considering where it is the drive to stay alive that is the motivation to improve society (religon was just the current tool, used to improve these odds) and not religon because of religon that was / is important.
The whole eternal life if you join with us angle plays into that part of the brain really well, but eternal life is not a tangible thing.

Now to the least religous countries, id say that science is replacing the need for religon, or what religon used to provide. As evidenced by the studies quoted in the link.
 

Woodsie

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OK ... if we conclude that religion has/is having an effect on the condition of countries in the world today .... can we further catagoriseand grade these Countries by the National Culture that introduced the religion to them ... Is Catholicism introduced by Spain better than that introduced by Portugal ? ...

Is Religion in fact a secondary consideration to the Nation and Culture that colonised them ... are Countries colonised by the British better today than those colonised by France, Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands ? ... Is it Christianity V The Pope or more the governmental systems and laws that were applied ? ..
 

MuzztheEagle

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Two events that really shaped the (Western) world that we now live in were the Reformation and the invention of the printing press:
The combination of the two gave everyday people access to information that was previously only available via authority. It lead to fierce debates of religion and morality (and persecution of people who interpreted things the "wrong" way). It probably wasn't Luther's intention but it gave European society the freedom to challenge the status quo and create new systems that benefited all of society and not just the ruling classes (the church).
It's interesting then, to consider that we now live in the information age where both information and ideas are now available on a truly global scale. Similar to 500 years ago, we are seeing the sort of disruption that this causes when society hasn't yet developed the tools to use a technology without conflict.
 

manly al

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OK ... if we conclude that religion has/is having an effect on the condition of countries in the world today .... can we further catagoriseand grade these Countries by the National Culture that introduced the religion to them ... Is Catholicism introduced by Spain better than that introduced by Portugal ? ...

Is Religion in fact a secondary consideration to the Nation and Culture that colonised them ... are Countries colonised by the British better today than those colonised by France, Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands ? ... Is it Christianity V The Pope or more the governmental systems and laws that were applied ? ..
Seems a good perspective and consideration , religion in whatever form may have been a common denominator but not the main motivation in exploiting , occupying and colonizing new and already established civilizations out side of the European sphere . Then with some type of or varied society order or control in good and bad forms but primarily consisting of suppression and brutality in most instances and in the name of religion promotion . . . Religion has or did provide some good influences no doubt but also was unfortunately and wrongly used on a regular basis as a justification to support colonial ambitions and exploitation on a very major scale for centuries . Bit hard to generalize how this has evolved into the modern world religious or varied religious influenced societies welfare and common good levels however .
 

Woodsie

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Two events that really shaped the (Western) world that we now live in were the Reformation and the invention of the printing press:
The combination of the two gave everyday people access to information that was previously only available via authority. It lead to fierce debates of religion and morality (and persecution of people who interpreted things the "wrong" way). It probably wasn't Luther's intention but it gave European society the freedom to challenge the status quo and create new systems that benefited all of society and not just the ruling classes (the church).
It's interesting then, to consider that we now live in the information age where both information and ideas are now available on a truly global scale. Similar to 500 years ago, we are seeing the sort of disruption that this causes when society hasn't yet developed the tools to use a technology without conflict.
Now that you have changed the subject again .... I read an interesting article listing some 20 or so major inventions ... and the Chinese were over represented claiming a large portion of them ...

But here is the interesting part ... the article opined that with the invention of porcelan .. China's leadership in invention took a dramatic slow down .... the reason put forth was, that because they were so happy with porcelan .. they neglected any development of glass ... which as we know leads to optics, telescopes, microscopes, test tubes, beakers, etc .... and even more importantly the articles says .. reading glasses ... and that this meant the older more experienced academics became "useless" through vertual blindness just at the stage of their potentially most productive years ...

.. ain't life funny ...
 

MuzztheEagle

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Now that you have changed the subject again .... I read an interesting article listing some 20 or so major inventions ... and the Chinese were over represented claiming a large portion of them ...

But here is the interesting part ... the article opined that with the invention of porcelan .. China's leadership in invention took a dramatic slow down .... the reason put forth was, that because they were so happy with porcelan .. they neglected any development of glass ... which as we know leads to optics, telescopes, microscopes, test tubes, beakers, etc .... and even more importantly the articles says .. reading glasses ... and that this meant the older more experienced academics became "useless" through vertual blindness just at the stage of their potentially most productive years ...

.. ain't life funny ...
Didn't really mean to change the subject. I think I had a point but forgot what it was half way through writing...it's been one of those mornings.
To go back to @manlyfan76 's original point. I don't think it's necessarily secularism that improves equality in a country but the freedom of speech, commerce and ideas which came as a result of the Reformation. Then look at your and @manly al 's points about taking Christian ideas to other countries through colonization and missionaries and you push only a single religious doctrine onto a country. That removes the idea of free thought and with it many of the benefits of Western society that have been developed over the past 500 years.
The funny thing is all the free thought and speech around religion and morality is the main thing which leads to secular views. If Luther had known that this would happen as a result of his actions I wonder if he would have just kept his mouth shut.
 

Woodsie

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The funny thing is all the free thought and speech around religion and morality is the main thing which leads to secular views. If Luther had known that this would happen as a result of his actions I wonder if he would have just kept his mouth shut.
I think this is the main reason we Scots invented golf ...
 

manlyfan76

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The good old reformation.
This video is long, but exposes the Venetian conspiracy.

 
Last edited:

wombatgc

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Since you asked for it (and because the religious people have given up :)):
Well we can always ask Bill Burr's thought on stats:

I think many Christians would point to the idea that many of these so called non/less religious counties have built their morals and societies around Christian lessons.
But let's also consider the data a bit more and from a different angle.
View attachment 13682
View attachment 13684
Look how badly Muslim countries perform when you compare the two maps. Surely Islam is dragging down the stats presented when you compare religion into a single lump. Is this evidence that Christianity is a fairer and therefor better religion than the others? I'm sure plenty would argue that. Hey, while we're at it, I think we could argue that Protestant countries are better off than Catholic ones. Evidence that Protestants are "true" Christians?
I gave you a winner cup purely because you referenced my idol, and life coach Bill Burr.@:D
 

MuzztheEagle

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So, I thought I'd take up the advice of @Kevinward777, @eaglebuzz and @Eagle thru 'n' thru and seek out the guidance of an actual religious expert (I decided to go with the uniting church as they seem to be more algned to my own thinking than, say the johos). And yes the pastor(?) suggest my interpretation of many of the verses around Women, in particular, were taken out of context and/or interpreted in a many that was not in line the the (current) interpretation of the church. Phew! I'm glad I cleared that up, I honestly thought all Christians were a bunch of women haters ;)

But, that got me thinking. Is everyone here in Australia just doing what I did to Christianity to Islam. What does the scripture actually say about women in Islam? Not to long ago Yassmin Abdel-Magied was mocked for suggesting that Islam was the most feminist of religions:
So I did a bit of reading, and when you use the correct context and interpretation I think it is genuinely clear that its core Islam is truly the most equal and feminist religion. *This is a joke - I would never think this....it's dumb

Even the Burqa and Hijab get a terrible wrap when you take them out of context.
@Christians and @Bring back the.... Biff? (and non-Christians) What do you think?
 

manlyfan76

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Muzz what do you think about luther (and others) being a puppet?
 

MuzztheEagle

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Muzz what do you think about luther (and others) being a puppet?
In reference to the so called venetian conspiracy? I don't think there is enough evidence to support the claim. He definitely wouldn't have expected the full implications of his actions though.
 

manlyfan76

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In reference to the so called venetian conspiracy? I don't think there is enough evidence to support the claim. He definitely wouldn't have expected the full implications of his actions though.
It makes sense from what ive read that Contarini led the reformers.
Then you look for their motive and then the results.
There had to be something to it.
 

MuzztheEagle

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It makes sense from what ive read that Contarini led the reformers.
Then you look for their motive and then the results.
There had to be something to it.
I think you're overestimating the intelligence of humans, especially in groups. I was recently on a committee of quite bright individuals (industry leaders even) who couldn't even sort out an online questionnaire!
There were plenty of people who wanted to bring down the Catholic church (or slice of part of it's power) at the time, from outside and within. I just don't think it was part of some grand conspiracy or that such conspiracies actual exist. People is dumb :)
Then again, maybe the lizzardpeople DO have the level of intelligence and organisation to be able to pull this off :)
 

Woodsie

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@MuzztheEagle .. you need to sue your primary school, high school and university lectures for their failure to teach you even the most basic knowledge of the English language and the meaning of words ... if after all your years of education ... you are still unable to determine or conclude the meaning of a simple sentence in the scriptures without having an expert tell you the "real" meaning or current interpretation ... then you are a sad example of our education system ....
 

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