The scales of Reuben.

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What has Reuben done now?


  • Total voters
    66

Heckenberg

Reserve Grader
Love your optimism SER8. Most of the defensive wobbles on that right side have to do with DCE. Yes Garrick is somewhat soft with his tackling but bigger issue all to do with lack of defensive structure and confidence in that structure. After 27 rounds of same issue and still no fix, I am not that sure will be remedied in the off-season.
I think it’s actually more a problem with garricks effectiveness in contact than his reads. He seems to just straight up boot grab and fall off tackles.
 

danny-boy

Reserve Grader
I’ve been getting rubbished all season about banging on about how sheet Garrick is and now all of a sudden we can all see it.
He is embarrassing to our past great centres
Mate, you, me, XV-1, and a few others have been absolutely screaming to get Garrick out of the centres all year. I was calling for it as soon as I saw his performance in Vegas where he watched a Souths players stroll over the line as he just stood there and watched him. You could see it from the get go he’s got no awareness.

From then on he’s let a try in in almost every game this season.

I couldn’t believe it when Talau first got picked in the team and Seibold put him at wing and Garrick in the centres. I shouted from the roof tops but all I got was some numpty arguing that Talau was unproven and Garrick deserved a chance.

If Garrick has a clause in his contract that he has to play centre the club needs to act on this fast.
 

Tragic Eagle

Tragic
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Garrick should play where it’s best for the team and not him. His defence is not good enough to play centre in the NRL. If his contract has a release clause based on playing centre thenlet him go to Newcastle. His best position for this team is wing.
 

The Indian

Bencher
I'm a fan of Reuben overall and don't want him out of the team totally etc.... but surely we have enough evidence to say he just isn't up to it defensively.

To me it's so so so obvious but there's people on here who disagree and obviously coaches too so I just throw my hands up.

Get him back on the wing for mine and give Tommy T or Lehi a crack. Please.
 

LeonardCohen

Bencher
I’m not saying DCE is not at fault but it’s not all on him either. Take the try that was scored by Tupou in the second half last night as an example; it was a clever play and one that Manly has used off Olakau’atu on occasions this year, the lead runner (in this case, Crichton) takes the ball and spins at the line, before passing to a player that is wrapping around, to create the overlap. DCE has to bite on the lead runner there. If he holds, Crichton goes through untouched. The issue is that when Daly commits there, Garrick and Hoppa have to react quickly and make a split second decision. Instead, they hesitate and are exposed.

Sure, sometimes it’s Daly and not Ruebs, sometimes it’s Ruebs and sometimes it’s both of them. Either way, it’s an edge that was exposed in the very first try of the season in Vegas and across the span of five months, it was still being badly exposed.
 

Cliffy's Jockstrap

Reserve Grader
Tipping Member
This will be an unpopular opinion but I honestly believe Reuben, if he stays fit, will be in the elite class of centres next year and my preferred backine for next year would feature Garrick and Talau Centres, Saab and Koula Wingers. And I say that while liking Koula very much, it's not a put-down.

In attack Garrick is a try-scorer in his own right, and additionally was rapidly improving his service to Saab. And that's critical: the thing I liked best about Harper was his ability to deliver early quality ball to Saab, upon which Saab feasted on tries.

The other very important thing Garrick contributes in attack is that he can cross - step at speed. We have loads of quick backs but they are all straight runners who can also curve. When Garrick has a couple of metres space to come back in and skip along the defensive line at speed he creates uncertainty. We just need to brain up some team mates to understand they need to respond by running to his outside shoulder, or in a fast line down the centre, and we will get some tries.

Garrick is a rather large young man now and I think he may become quite imposing next year. I've been around long enough to remember when we used to bemoan seeing him ragdolled on returns: then suddenly he was in the top 5 for post-contact metres. Lesson: he is a serious person who takes improvement seriously.

He gets the knock for defence, but how bad is he personally really? According to NRL stats, with 63 tackles missed from 23 games he ranks 45th. Well behind a number of players that I dare say many would tout as "better defenders." Don't get me wrong, I've pointed in a different thread to Manly's worrying Defence stats as a far worse problem than anything in Attack; but I think it is mistaken to act as though we fix Defence by putting Garrick on the Wing, it is an entire team problem imo.

Lastly I observe that if I understand the stats correctly then Manly's Right side still scores more tries and concedes less tries than the Left.

I think it is fairly generally considered that he was playing either concussed or injured against Easts (I've read both those things on this site today) so I am taking that as simply an unhappy night as many of his team mates suffered. So I'm backing we will have plenty of chances to cheer for Centre Garrick next year!
 

JakeyB789

Reserve Grader
He gets the knock for defence, but how bad is he personally really? According to NRL stats, with 63 tackles missed from 23 games he ranks 45th. Well behind a number of players that I dare say many would tout as "better defenders." Don't get me wrong, I've pointed in a different thread to Manly's worrying Defence stats as a far worse problem than anything in Attack; but I think it is mistaken to act as though we fix Defence by putting Garrick on the Wing, it is an entire team problem imo.
I agree with the rest of your post in that he is more than capable offensively as a centre but we all know the major problem is with his defence. Missed tackles are a bit of a misleading stat for outside backs and centres in particular as their ability to watch the attack and make defensive reads are more important, it doesn't come up as a missed tackle if they come up with thin air or watch their man pass to an opposition player open on their outside. I don't think anyone could say our defence didn't look at least a little better when Talau or even Burbo earlier in the season were defending there instead, much like when Croker was out and our attack seeming to flow much better with Simpkin in his place.

I do think he is actually our best outside back for yardage out of own end now but there's no reason he can't continue to do that from the wing. Swapping him with Talau is just such an easy fix that I'm shocked we didn't do it at any point this year, Garrick had the entire season there and his defence just didn't improve at all, in fact it probably got worse. I think even Lehi could develop into a quality centre with a bit more size on him, like his brother Will, but I really hope this season was a one and done for Garrick in the centres.
 

Dion Johnson

Bencher
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Yeah maybe except I can't recall if Talua played many - or any? - games at right centre alongside Daly. If he didn't, where is the evidence to say he will do a better job?
I don’t think there is evidence of this though if you keep persisting with something that doesn’t work or hasn’t improved over the 2023 offseason and the 2024 season you need to go in another direction.
 

HoldenV8

Journey Man
Yeah what does Seibold and the coaching staff know. Week 2 of the finals with Reuben at centre all year.

I know stats don't always tell the full story, but statistically speaking, Garrick is actually a better defensive centre than both Koula and Talau.

Garrick made 394 tackles in 2024. He also missed 66.
Koula made 146 tackles and missed 37.
Talau made 159 tackles and missed 51.
 

JakeyB789

Reserve Grader
Yeah maybe except I can't recall if Talua played many - or any? - games at right centre alongside Daly. If he didn't, where is the evidence to say he will do a better job?
I think you might be right in that he didn’t play there, my bad, and that it was only really Burbo that filled in for him on that side this year. But even then I think Burbo was a better defender overall in the centres, with the exception of the second Roosters game where he actually played on the left and got carved up by Walker/Teddy etc

What I really meant to say was Talau should be left centre with Koula moving back over to the right where he was last year. I think he covered for DCE’s defensive deficiencies better than anyone else with his speed and he might actually get some decent ball for a change on that side
 

CRPSI eagle

Reserve Grader
Yeah maybe except I can't recall if Talua played many - or any? - games at right centre alongside Daly. If he didn't, where is the evidence to say he will do a better job?
Why not just Kola back to right side where he was making a fist of the right centre, but re adjust the entire backline almost accomodate a very average player.
 

Cliffy's Jockstrap

Reserve Grader
Tipping Member
I would be the first to observe that statistics cannot be relied upon to tell you the whole story. But they are still where one must start. If you are looking into the eyes of little clumps of facts and logic that are waving at you, that is where you must start. And then you work out what are the missing bits, the things they aren't telling you.

Statistics tell us quite clearly that Garrick has scored more tries and provided more try assists than his Centre partner this year (who also played three less games, let's not forget). Garrick has made more than twice the actual number of tackles than Koula, which strongly suggests that opposition Attacks are more regularly coming at our right-hand side. And yet, under considerable stress, our right-hand side has conceded less tries than our left hand side according to NRL Try Location Analysis 2024 | NRL Stats

(I am not smart enough to do proper URL copies. And if I am misreading that data please do tell me).

None of this leads me to think that disaster is occurring on the right-hand side. Perhaps there is an argument that we should be examining our left-hand side more closely.

Probably the last point I'd make regarding statistics is that in an overall small sample size outsize events will have an outsize impact. I think in Garrick's worst game he was taken to have missed 7 tackles, from memory? Which is bad, clearly. But points to a very bad game, not so much a very bad player. Take those 7 misses out of his total and where does he end up then?
 

Tragic Eagle

Tragic
Premium Member
Tipping Member
I've been watching him closely this year and its pretty clear to me that his defensive reads and position play are very poor as he is often left grabbing air. Statics don't cover all aspects of play unless he makes contact and falls of a tackle its not recorded as a missed tackle.
 

Under the Sticks

The spirit of Mooney 🦅
Premium Member
I've been watching him closely this year and its pretty clear to me that his defensive reads and position play are very poor as he is often left grabbing air. Statics don't cover all aspects of play unless he makes contact and falls of a tackle its not recorded as a missed tackle.
Is there a metric for “shaking head I didn’t lay a hand on him”?
 

manly al

First Grader
Just get the notion Talau has a bit better defensive and aggression type technique then Rueben and in all likelihood with general reads there .
Has a pretty handy deceptive skip and change of direction as well and effective changing the point of attack at centre .
Obviously going to be a delicate balancing act with Lehi as well and the premise at this stage anyway that Koula should have first dibs for a centre spot .
No doubt will come down to a judgement call before season 's start and Rueben did have a tough assignment against the formidable Rooster pairing Sat night after some quite good form more often then not in 24 but a few negative issues combined and Manly a bit closer to top ranking now so have to try and find some improved positional outcomes if they present themselves
 

nightster

The older I get the better I was
Premium Member
Tipping Member
I’m not saying DCE is not at fault but it’s not all on him either. Take the try that was scored by Tupou in the second half last night as an example; it was a clever play and one that Manly has used off Olakau’atu on occasions this year, the lead runner (in this case, Crichton) takes the ball and spins at the line, before passing to a player that is wrapping around, to create the overlap. DCE has to bite on the lead runner there. If he holds, Crichton goes through untouched. The issue is that when Daly commits there, Garrick and Hoppa have to react quickly and make a split second decision. Instead, they hesitate and are exposed.

Sure, sometimes it’s Daly and not Ruebs, sometimes it’s Ruebs and sometimes it’s both of them. Either way, it’s an edge that was exposed in the very first try of the season in Vegas and across the span of five months, it was still being badly exposed.
Yes I agree, but also as much as I/we all love Mole he is missing at times too .... he doesn't urgently cover but jogs across at times
 

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