The Daly Cherrygraph

[Bearfax]

I was hoping for a greater hornets nest response given my comments were made to elicit such.

I was mainly trying to get perspective on the issue. I've noted often there is a tendency on this site to be judgmental, not only about the players, coaches and club etc but also each other. Hey, I'm no saint here and sometimes I write things that I later cringe over. One recent comment concerned the relationship between Des and Schuster, and though I qualified it by suggesting I could be wrong, in a sense I was making an unqualified judgement which though based on various material available, was still inappropriate. Why? Because I really have very little idea about what is happening behind the scenes. I was making a selective judgement by way of projecting my own frustrations on the issue.

Effectively that is what the issue I'm going on about relates to. Selective judgments. Making put down judgments about, in this case, a player who deserves our respect, just as all the players deserve, given they are the creme de la creme of the game and have worked damned hard to get there. They arent perfect, but they do their best to entertain us. And to isolate one or two players as the problem in the team isnt really helpful. Like any machine, all the components have to be in synch, each doing its part. If the parts arent melding effectively, no matter how good the individual parts may be, it wont function to its optimum. Its not about the individual so much as the melding, though if the parts arent up to the challenge, we shouldnt be having unrealistic expectations. Someone like DCE can be the best in the World, but if the machine around him as a whole is not in synch, obviously it wont perform. So its not solely DCE's fault that the team isnt functioning. Its about how the team is functioning as a whole to meet requirements of defense, attack, strategy. Bleeding obvious I know, but I just think its important to remember

And might I add selective judging says more about the judger than what is being judged.

 

[Bearfax]

Well if my expectation is that our 1.2 million dollar captain should be a leader that plays a smart controlled game, thinks of how his low percentage plays affect the team at the time he rolls the dice and lifts his side when the chips are down then I am fickle and short sighted. The difference between DCE and Cronk is chalk and cheese. DCE is a great resilient athlete whereas Cronk may not be as athletic but played at the next level above consistently with vision, poise and control.

Much easier for a player to play with vision, poise and control, when he has a champion side around him. DCE showed a great deal of vision, poise and control in the SOO. He also showed it between 2011-2015 at Manly, but then he had a champion side around him. Do you think it might have something to do with the team he's playing with? Surely not. Should I also point out that Cronk played in a champion SOO side with some great players. The recent QLD SOO was not as sprinkled with stars yet DCE shone and got the win.

 

[silvereagle]

Much easier for a player to play with vision, poise and control, when he has a champion side around him. DCE showed a great deal of vision, poise and control in the SOO. He also showed it between 2011-2015 at Manly, but then he had a champion side around him. Do you think it might have something to do with the team he's playing with? Surely not. Should I also point out that Cronk played in a champion SOO side with some great players. The recent QLD SOO was not as sprinkled with stars yet DCE shone and got the win.

I think this goes without saying. For evidence, look no further than last nights Dally M Awards. Cherry was in a great position and only a few points off the lead going into Round 19. That's when the side hit the skids with that astonishing embargo from some our players around the Pride jersey. I don't think we won any more matches after that so Cherry would not score any further points. In fact the team performance was so bad against Cronulla that Nicho got the big points that got him the Dally M Player. I sat there last night feeling really bad for Cherry. He busted his guts out for the side in those last 7 rounds and yes made some mistakes but moreso from overplaying his hand. Pity a number of other players did not show the same commitment and priority to our team, our jersey and our club. I know what I would be doing with those "players" but then again that's probably why I am not part of the coaching team and club management.

 

[jbb/james]

Much easier for a player to play with vision, poise and control, when he has a champion side around him. DCE showed a great deal of vision, poise and control in the SOO. He also showed it between 2011-2015 at Manly, but then he had a champion side around him. Do you think it might have something to do with the team he's playing with? Surely not. Should I also point out that Cronk played in a champion SOO side with some great players. The recent QLD SOO was not as sprinkled with stars yet DCE shone and got the win.

It absolutely has everyting to do with the side you put around him.agree
beef eating props , tried that, marty afb
hooker tandems, api, manase , tried that
foran, walker, hodkinson, cust, green schuster, elgey as 6 , tried that

and the data suggests he works very well in a 4 million dollar spine, with top line forwards . And he would probably need to take a pay cut to get that spine under 4 mill

we have seen the results and its fair to say he is not fit for purpose, despite his brilliance. Purpose being leading the side to overall improvement as a 7 , bit by bit

and the kicker

Some people say the same thing ad nauseam ( origin spine ) but yet dont ever admit to the cap dilema accomodating him then creates . They just never stop and do the math and realise how many brad parkers we get as a result. Never discussed , if we also need a game managing 6 and a dangerous dummy half. If we had them, like what would he anyway

i dont feel guilt discussing anybodys footy game on these boards, because its my club/brand

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Cronk and Thurston regularly kept DCE out of Queensland and Australian sides. Cronk has won 2 Dally M awards and Thurston 4. So to the people who are paid to judge the relative quality of a footballer DCE isn't at their level.

You're right he's not at their level but according to those paid to judge the quality he's pretty good. He was in the top 6 for Dally M up until jerseygate (and was only trailing Cleary by one point when Cleary got rubbed out by suspension). Once again rated in the top few halfbacks despite Manly's underwhelming season.
It would be great to have a Manly halfback lead us to multiple premierships. I think none have won more that one so far: Ward, Mayes, Stephens, Martin, Hasler, Toovey, Orford, DCE.

 

[Seagles68]

I was hoping for a greater hornets nest response given my comments were made to elicit such.

I was mainly trying to get perspective on the issue. I've noted often there is a tendency on this site to be judgmental, not only about the players, coaches and club etc but also each other. Hey, I'm no saint here and sometimes I write things that I later cringe over. One recent comment concerned the relationship between Des and Schuster, and though I qualified it by suggesting I could be wrong, in a sense I was making an unqualified judgement which though based on various material available, was still inappropriate. Why? Because I really have very little idea about what is happening behind the scenes. I was making a selective judgement by way of projecting my own frustrations on the issue.

Effectively that is what the issue I'm going on about relates to. Selective judgments. Making put down judgments about, in this case, a player who deserves our respect, just as all the players deserve, given they are the creme de la creme of the game and have worked damned hard to get there. They arent perfect, but they do their best to entertain us. And to isolate one or two players as the problem in the team isnt really helpful. Like any machine, all the components have to be in synch, each doing its part. If the parts arent melding effectively, no matter how good the individual parts may be, it wont function to its optimum. Its not about the individual so much as the melding, though if the parts arent up to the challenge, we shouldnt be having unrealistic expectations. Someone like DCE can be the best in the World, but if the machine around him as a whole is not in synch, obviously it wont perform. So its not solely DCE's fault that the team isnt functioning. Its about how the team is functioning as a whole to meet requirements of defense, attack, strategy. Bleeding obvious I know, but I just think its important to remember

And might I add selective judging says more about the judger than what is being judged.

So if I'm reading this correctly Bear, I'm thinking we need an engineer with more commitment to building and modifying the machine, a mechanic that can fine tune our machine and know when to replace worn out parts and components that are well oiled and greased (no lube jokes pls) that can produce a product that ST consumers can be proud to show off. Having a group of conceptual thinkers working on long term design plans for a dominant production line, would also be handy.

 

[Chip and Chase]

You're right he's not at their level but according to those paid to judge the quality he's pretty good. He was in the top 6 for Dally M up until jerseygate (and was only trailing Cleary by one point when Cleary got rubbed out by suspension). Once again rated in the top few halfbacks despite Manly's underwhelming season.
It would be great to have a Manly halfback lead us to multiple premierships. I think none have won more that one so far: Ward, Mayes, Stephens, Martin, Hasler, Toovey, Orford, DCE.

he'd want to be "pretty good" given he is/was the highest paid player in the league. but unfortunately pretty good doesn't win you premierships when most of the eggs are in your basket. i'll give him props for finishing that high up Dally M leaderboard, was higher than I expected. but still 3 other halfbacks in front of him and Cleary would have covered him if not for suspension - so yes in top "few" halfbacks as you would expect, but not in the top tier as usual.

interesting stat that on the halfbacks and premierships - I can't see DCE breaking that trend though unfortunately.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

interesting stat that on the halfbacks and premierships - I can't see DCE breaking that trend though unfortunately.

Not based on this year, no. But with Turbo back who knows, anythings possible. Including a spoon!

 

[Seagles68]

Not based on this year, no. But with Turbo back who knows, anythings possible. Including a spoon!

I think he'll aslo need a dominant forward pack, not just Turbo. And the "s" word shouldn't be allowed. I'm too old to consider that.

 

[BOZO]

interesting stat that on the halfbacks and premierships - I can't see DCE breaking that trend though unfortunately.

With the same roster that we have can you see any other half back taking us to a grand final win ?

Des Haslers favourites
Turbo
Saab
Parker
Harper
Garrick
Shu
DCE
Aloiai
Croker
Sipley
Olakau'atu
Ben Turbo
Jake Turbo
There are some good players there amongst ones that are not premiership winning Manly Material

 

[BOZO]

I think he'll aslo need a dominant forward pack, not just Turbo. And the "s" word shouldn't be allowed. I'm too old to consider that.

Where has the fear been all year and the , intimidation and domination in our Pack ?

 

[Seagles68]

Where has the fear been all year and the , intimidation and domination in our Pack ?

Some of our blokes are just too nice. Paseka is a gentle giant. I don't want grubs in our team but a little agro would be good.

 

[BOZO]

Some of our blokes are just too nice. Paseka is a gentle giant. I don't want grubs in our team but a little agro would be good.

You are right and Our highest paid forward Jake is the Gentleman in the pack

Sipley is another one . Great Guy and a lovely Gentleman on and off the field

I have never seen a pack full of Gentleman win a grand final

 

[BOZO]

I don't want grubs in our team but a little agro would be good.

Man does live on bread alone . He needs to have a little grub feathered friend

 

[BOZO]

The was no bigger Grub than the one of the many ones Arko signed to win our first premiership
The most Intimidating and talented ruthless grub of his time
The Manly Legend Mal Reilly

The Frear full Sea eagle Mal Reilly

 

[BOZO]

The modern Manly forward leaders Image

 

[Chip and Chase]

With the same roster that we have can you see any other half back taking us to a grand final win ?

Des Haslers favourites
Turbo
Saab
Parker
Harper
Garrick
Shu
DCE
Aloiai
Croker
Sipley
Olakau'atu
Ben Turbo
Jake Turbo
There are some good players there amongst ones that are not premiership winning Manly Material

Therein lies the problem. We are paying top dollar for a halfback who isn't elite level, so we have no cap room left to put players around him to cover deficiencies and make us premiership contenders. I'm not sure that Cleary or Hynes or Hunt or Moses would win a premiership with that side either. But I think we would get better value for money from them. Have to look at big picture, DCE's paypacket, his performance, and the knock on effect to cap restraints aren't all mutually exclusive variables. Get a cheaper half, have money to spend elsewhere to strengthen squad.....better overall result ?? who knows ? But we aren't likely to find out for 3 more years

Anyway it's a circular argument here. Seems like there are plenty who are content with paying elite money for a someone whose best quality is trying his guts out each week but doesn't have the elite game his money commands. If you are happy with the situation where we can't boost our squad quality because of DCE overspend then so be it. It will stop us getting a spoon, but unlikely to win us a premiership. Tommy is in same boat to an extent with his injury history, but at least we know with Tommy that he can deliver and is one of the games elite players when on the park.

 

[BOZO]

Therein lies the problem. We are paying top dollar for a halfback who isn't elite level, so we have no cap room left to put players around him to cover deficiencies and make us premiership contenders. I'm not sure that Cleary or Hynes or Hunt or Moses would win a premiership with that side either. But I think we would get better value for money from them. Have to look at big picture, DCE's paypacket, his performance, and the knock on effect to cap restraints aren't all mutually exclusive variables. Get a cheaper half, have money to spend elsewhere to strengthen squad.....better overall result ?? who knows ? But we aren't likely to find out for 3 more years

Anyway it's a circular argument here. Seems like there are plenty who are content with paying elite money for a someone whose best quality is trying his guts out each week but doesn't have the elite game his money commands. If you are happy with the situation where we can't boost our squad quality because of DCE overspend then so be it. It will stop us getting a spoon, but unlikely to win us a premiership. Tommy is in same boat to an extent with his injury history, but at least we know with Tommy that he can deliver and is one of the games elite players when on the park.

Cleary is on more money than DCE and so DCE is not our problem
Our problem is the people that manage our cap
Our cap can be spent smarter with better value players and not necessary more expensive

 

[jbb/james]

Cleary is on more money than DCE and so DCE is not our problem
Our problem is the people that manage our cap
Our cap can be spent smarter with better value players and not necessary more expensi

Its not whats reported in news articles . Went from 940k to 1.1 seems to be the numbers if true, seems he has a % increase linked to the cap as DCE has i thought. If so and the cap goes to 12 m DCE could be close to 1.5 next season if his 12 - 13 % cap hit is close to the mark

there are stacks of articles about it . I didnt see any that supported cleary being on more.

the 1.1 m deal hasnt started yet

 

[Bearfax]

It absolutely has everyting to do with the side you put around him.agree
beef eating props , tried that, marty afb
hooker tandems, api, manase , tried that
foran, walker, hodkinson, cust, green schuster, elgey as 6 , tried that

and the data suggests he works very well in a 4 million dollar spine, with top line forwards . And he would probably need to take a pay cut to get that spine under 4 mill

we have seen the results and its fair to say he is not fit for purpose, despite his brilliance. Purpose being leading the side to overall improvement as a 7 , bit by bit

and the kicker

Some people say the same thing ad nauseam ( origin spine ) but yet dont ever admit to the cap dilema accomodating him then creates . They just never stop and do the math and realise how many brad parkers we get as a result. Never discussed , if we also need a game managing 6 and a dangerous dummy half. If we had them, like what would he anyway

i dont feel guilt discussing anybodys footy game on these boards, because its my club/brand

You're just reinforcing my argument. If you're blaming DCE for the plight of the side's failings, how is it he was so effective in SOO or 2011-15 or for that matter last year. As I suggested I dont think he's a great ball player. That's not his strength. But if you're going to blame him, what about the rest of the team. Even Foran, despite, as so many have stated and which I agree with, has played very well and consistently, yet where is his impact. If you dont have the cattle, or they are too inexperienced or they are just not setting themselves correctly in attack, defense and general strategies, you cant expect even the best player to shine. And yet as was pointed out DCE was near the leaders in the Dally M this year by Round 20 and was equal fourth last year. In the Fantasy Coaching assessments which is based on stats including negative play in 2021 he and Turbo were the only two Manly players in the top ratings and this year DCE was alone in top ratings. Of course some Silvertails see it differently, but if those who are considered experts and the stats point to his worth, where does that place our perspective. I know I'm no expert that's why I dont only look at things from my point of view. I check stats and I check what others are saying who know the game better than I do.