The Daly Cherrygraph

[HK_Eagle]

Obviously you dont read my posts very often and thats cool. I feel honoured you read the one above..... I like to think im realistic in my expectations unlike some who expect unicorns to fill our 1 thru 13.
DCE has been struggling for a long while and yes he needs to perform much better for an extended period. First tonadmit that but im also first to admit that given the club made the current deal happen whats the use of continually bitching at the bloke. Sure vent and say your piece but to keep week after week going on about it when 70% of the side is just as crap really doesnt help.

Fair enough. And yes, I probably haven't looked closely enough at your overall posts to notice the balance. I guess the gist of what you're saying here is that he is not a 1.3M dollar player, he was just fortunate enough to benefit from the club's f%$k up... and thus, it's pointless people going on about him not playing like a million dollar superstar, because in fact, he isn't one. Would that be a fair summary?

 

[frank stokes]

I saw it posted in another thread that the 'myth' that DCE makes more tackles per game than 'any other' half in the NRL had been 'busted'...

...a few stats from the NRL official stats page - keeping in mind that Chez has (with the exception of Ben Hunt who has played a large part of his career at 9) played more games than most of these and therefore has maintained this average over a longer period of time...

I included the ones I could think of that actually tackle and left out your Benji (9.4 TPG) type halves.... happy to include others that posters want to know about but the ones here show that the 'myth' is well and truly still alive...

CHEZ - 242 GAMES - 21.5 Tackles Per Game - 2.23 Missed Tackles Per Game

Ben Hunt - 255 - 20.8 - 3.18
Adam Reynolds - 212 - 18.5 - 2.32
Nathan Cleary - 105 - 17.8 - 2.35
Luke Keary - 157 - 17.4 - 2.13
Jerome Luai - 46 - 17.65 - 2.20
Kodi Nikorima - 125 - 15.8 - 2.4
Cameron Munster - 137 - 15.8 - 2.48
Cody Walker - 122 - 15.6 - 2.07
Luke Brooks - 154 - 15.3 - 3.76
Corey Norman - 211 - 13.7 - 2.25
Jack Wighton - 184 - 10.5 - 1.59

 

[Will on the hill]

Name a bad half back that plays for a good team? Even the likes of Jerome Hughes and George Williams get accolades for their contributions because their team is going well as a unit.

Name a good half back that plays for a bad team? Ben Hunt has gone from world beater to trash and back to world beater all as the form of his teams waxed and waned.

All Halfbacks reputations rise and fall with the form of those around them. Their job description should be rugby league facilitator.

If Manly is going well Chez is our Cherry on top. If the whole team is struggling there is not a damn thing any halfback in the comp could do about it.

 

[Chip and Chase]

he got

I saw it posted in another thread that the 'myth' that DCE makes more tackles per game than 'any other' half in the NRL had been 'busted'...

...a few stats from the NRL official stats page - keeping in mind that Chez has (with the exception of Ben Hunt who has played a large part of his career at 9) played more games than most of these and therefore has maintained this average over a longer period of time...

I included the ones I could think of that actually tackle and left out your Benji (9.4 TPG) type halves.... happy to include others that posters want to know about but the ones here show that the 'myth' is well and truly still alive...

CHEZ - 242 GAMES - 21.5 Tackles Per Game - 2.23 Missed Tackles Per Game

Ben Hunt - 255 - 20.8 - 3.18
Adam Reynolds - 212 - 18.5 - 2.32
Nathan Cleary - 105 - 17.8 - 2.35
Luke Keary - 157 - 17.4 - 2.13
Jerome Luai - 46 - 17.65 - 2.20
Kodi Nikorima - 125 - 15.8 - 2.4
Cameron Munster - 137 - 15.8 - 2.48
Cody Walker - 122 - 15.6 - 2.07
Luke Brooks - 154 - 15.3 - 3.76
Corey Norman - 211 - 13.7 - 2.25
Jack Wighton - 184 - 10.5 - 1.59

Names like Mitchell Pearce, Chad Townsend, Jarome Hughes, George Williams etc spring to mind. In fact I remember when I checked into this last year I'm pretty sure Kyle Flanagan had him covered in defensive work load on a per game basis.

That's the beauty of stats you can make them tell whatever story you want

What I said in the other thread was that he doesn't make "appreciably" more tackles than his peers. I don't see how making one or two tackles more per game is such a substantial extra workload for him that it causes him to play badly in other areas of his game. If he was making 10 or 15 more per game than I'd understand. He probably takes on more defensive work load because he is generally pretty solid in that area, always has been a strength of his game.

 

[EOL now nesting on the GC]

Fair enough. And yes, I probably haven't looked closely enough at your overall posts to notice the balance. I guess the gist of what you're saying here is that he is not a 1.3M dollar player, he was just fortunate enough to benefit from the club's f%$k up... and thus, it's pointless people going on about him not playing like a million dollar superstar, because in fact, he isn't one. Would that be a fair summary?

Thats getting closer to the mark i would agree.
He can be a very good player when allowed to be and you dont play for QLD and Australia and end up as captain if your a **** player.
But yes I would say 850 to 900k would be a fair amount given the current crop of halfbacks and what they earn.
There arnt many Joey Johns out there and unfortunately our club like so many others were panicked into the DCE contract in a blind attempt to keep the momentum of 07 - 13 going. Didnt work out in the end did it.

 

[frank stokes]

he got

Names like Mitchell Pearce, Chad Townsend, Jarome Hughes, George Williams etc spring to mind. In fact I remember when I checked into this last year I'm pretty sure Kyle Flanagan had him covered in defensive work load on a per game basis.

That's the beauty of stats you can make them tell whatever story you want

What I said in the other thread was that he doesn't make "appreciably" more tackles than his peers. I don't see how making one or two tackles more per game is such a substantial extra workload for him that it causes him to play badly in other areas of his game. If he was making 10 or 15 more per game than I'd understand. He probably takes on more defensive work load because he is generally pretty solid in that area, always has been a strength of his game.

Hughes is lower, I didn't even think of Pearce and Williams has played one season of NRL...

I will look at Pearce later and add him in...

Either way DCE has the vast majority covered so the 'myths is still alive

And it is on average around 4-5 tackles more over 242 games - see how some of these others look 220+ games in...

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

he got

Names like Mitchell Pearce, Chad Townsend, Jarome Hughes, George Williams etc spring to mind. In fact I remember when I checked into this last year I'm pretty sure Kyle Flanagan had him covered in defensive work load on a per game basis.

That's the beauty of stats you can make them tell whatever story you want

What I said in the other thread was that he doesn't make "appreciably" more tackles than his peers. I don't see how making one or two tackles more per game is such a substantial extra workload for him that it causes him to play badly in other areas of his game. If he was making 10 or 15 more per game than I'd understand. He probably takes on more defensive work load because he is generally pretty solid in that area, always has been a strength of his game.

Can I ask you one question... how did you rate Phil Blake as a halfback?
I am in the camp of Cherry defenders but even I concede he doesn't grab the team by the scruff of the neck and demand they get real, in the manner of a Johns or Thurston.

But both those guys are in discussion as future immortals.

How about this: If he was only on 1 million per year would you be so disappointed in him? How about if he was on 900k? How about 800k? My point being, the failings he has would be pointed out just as bluntly no matter what his pay, because halfback is a key position and even if he was on 250k he would get hammered for his failings.

Hammering him for his pay doesn't make sense to me. Hammer those who offered the contract. Or those who fail to trade him out the door each year.

But all DCE can do is be the best he can be. I'm satisfied he's always given it his best shot. The fact any given player is short of Immortal status is not their fault, unless they have wasted their Darwin-given talents. No?

 

[pjayz]

Can I ask you one question... how did you rate Phil Blake as a halfback?
I am in the camp of Cherry defenders but even I concede he doesn't grab the team by the scruff of the neck and demand they get real, in the manner of a Johns or Thurston.

But both those guys are in discussion as future immortals.

How about this: If he was only on 1 million per year would you be so disappointed in him? How about if he was on 900k? How about 800k? My point being, the failings he has would be pointed out just as bluntly no matter what his pay, because halfback is a key position and even if he was on 250k he would get hammered for his failings.

Hammering him for his pay doesn't make sense to me. Hammer those who offered the contract. Or those who fail to trade him out the door each year.

But all DCE can do is be the best he can be. I'm satisfied he's always given it his best shot. The fact any given player is short of Immortal status is not their fault, unless they have wasted their Darwin-given talents. No?

Johns is already an immortal

 

[Chip and Chase]

Can I ask you one question... how did you rate Phil Blake as a halfback?
I am in the camp of Cherry defenders but even I concede he doesn't grab the team by the scruff of the neck and demand they get real, in the manner of a Johns or Thurston.

But both those guys are in discussion as future immortals.

How about this: If he was only on 1 million per year would you be so disappointed in him? How about if he was on 900k? How about 800k? My point being, the failings he has would be pointed out just as bluntly no matter what his pay, because halfback is a key position and even if he was on 250k he would get hammered for his failings.

Hammering him for his pay doesn't make sense to me. Hammer those who offered the contract. Or those who fail to trade him out the door each year.

But all DCE can do is be the best he can be. I'm satisfied he's always given it his best shot. The fact any given player is short of Immortal status is not their fault, unless they have wasted their Darwin-given talents. No?

Phil Blake was an excitement machine to a young Manly fan at the time like me.

I'm over the whole DCE thing to be honest. Clearly DCE isn't the best player in the NRL by any stretch, never has been. He hasn't even won the award for being the best player in his position since he signed his latest contract. He always tries hard and that's great, but we don't get value for money from his contract because he isn't a consistently elite player. That's frustrating because in my opinion (and yes it's only my opinion and others are entitled to theirs) we have hamstrung ourselves by signing him to a deal that is way overs and for far too long a time frame. I don't think we win a premiership while he is signed on this current deal and in my book that's a massive fail for those who took the risk on that contract. We haven't even finished top 4 which is a minimum requirement to be contesting for a GF. Does anyone really think we have the squad to compete this year ? So that leaves two more years of his deal to deliver some results. Can't see it happening as much as I hope I'm wrong.

The contract isn't DCE's fault. Not playing consistently top level footy commensurate with his pay packet is. All every fan should want is success for the club, I feel that too many on here are prepared to defend DCE to the hilt at the expense of the success of the team as a whole.

I've already mentally written off the next two seasons in terms of premiership hopes, all I am hoping for is that we can start a 3-5 year plan now that we have an end in sight for his deal. We have some promising juniors that should be shining through and if Turbo can stay fit he could be the dominant player in the league by then. We have a couple of years now to look at bringing some young halves through or be ready to go to market with some decent coin to recruit some talent in that area. Just no more massive 8 year deals for anyone please.

 

[Chip and Chase]

Hughes is lower, I didn't even think of Pearce and Williams has played one season of NRL...

I will look at Pearce later and add him in...

Either way DCE has the vast majority covered so the 'myths is still alive

And it is on average around 4-5 tackles more over 242 games - see how some of these others look 220+ games in...

I still don't get it. What exactly is the fact that he makes 4 or 5 more tackles per game than other halves prove any way ?? He doesn't get paid to be the highest tackling half back in the league, he gets paid to be the best halfback in the league. Are you trying to say that other teams have figured out how to nullify DCE by running at him 4 or 5 times extra a game than they do at Nathan Cleary for example ?? Or is it the fact that the extra 1000 tackles he has made over his career has finally caught up with him and that is why he is currently out of form ??

 

[Tragic Eagle]

I feel that DCE has struggled because he has tried to do too much himself with the footy making himself the focus of other teams in defence. I am excited by what’s started to fall into place the last two weeks. We have Turbo back, Schuster slick and classy and Foran hitting form. Injuries have seen us with the best pack Des has picked all year and they are rolling like a tank. I am looking forward to DCE hitting a purple patch in form.

 

[ManlyMit]

If Ash Taylor and Milford are on $1M a season DCE is worth $2M a season

 

[frank stokes]

I still don't get it. What exactly is the fact that he makes 4 or 5 more tackles per game than other halves prove any way ?? He doesn't get paid to be the highest tackling half back in the league, he gets paid to be the best halfback in the league. Are you trying to say that other teams have figured out how to nullify DCE by running at him 4 or 5 times extra a game than they do at Nathan Cleary for example ?? Or is it the fact that the extra 1000 tackles he has made over his career has finally caught up with him and that is why he is currently out of form ??

It is the fact that he puts that effort in week after week after week - unlike many in our side... his kicking game may not always be on but his effort always is... plenty of those tackles are made covering for misses by other blokes too...

Cherry works his a*se off and hardly ever spends time on the sideline... put another 12 guys around him making the same effort every week (like origin) and he will lead you to a premiership - like 2011...

Easy to blame him for everything because of his pay packet but his effort cannot be questioned (unlike others at times) - and his stats just back that up...

 

[The better Robbo]

I guess it depends on what side of the fence you are on. But in my opinion I've never seen a player who gets afforded so many excuses for sub par performances. There are many posters on here who just will not accept that he can play a bad game due to being out of form. There always has to be an excuse why he didn't play well in their mind.

Like I said, he's certainly a polarising player. In my opinion history will show that his contract was one of the biggest mistakes this club has made. He just isn't anywhere near the best player in the NRL, and the fact that we are paying him as such and not getting the return on the investment is mind blowing. And not just for 3 or 4 seasons - 8 years !! 100% agree that's not DCE's fault, they offered it and he took it. But you have to understand that plays on peoples minds when they consider his level of contribution and consistency of that contribution - that's why he gets held to a higher account and cops more criticism than the rest of the team.

Well that all depends on if he can get us another premiership. Too early to write him off as unsuccessful just yet. I still hold faith he is an important part of our team for the next few years. He's hanging out for Lawton and/or Fainu

 

[Deleted member 26876]

Love seeing dce play when he is confident. While there is no denying a majority of his last few years have been dissapointing, there is no point dwelling if he keeps consistent with performances like last week. It is still early in 2021 and, while he started on a terrible note, he can build on his last two performances and re-find his value in the present.

Combo with Foran looked great with Trbo back and even vs Warriors was showing some improvement

 

[frank stokes]

he got

Names like Mitchell Pearce, Chad Townsend, Jarome Hughes, George Williams etc spring to mind. In fact I remember when I checked into this last year I'm pretty sure Kyle Flanagan had him covered in defensive work load on a per game basis.

That's the beauty of stats you can make them tell whatever story you want

What I said in the other thread was that he doesn't make "appreciably" more tackles than his peers. I don't see how making one or two tackles more per game is such a substantial extra workload for him that it causes him to play badly in other areas of his game. If he was making 10 or 15 more per game than I'd understand. He probably takes on more defensive work load because he is generally pretty solid in that area, always has been a strength of his game.

Pearce is 19.8 TPG and 301 games
Townsend 20.27 - 182
Flanagan - 24.2 - 35
Williams 21.8 - 28

You were right that those guys are near the top but Chez still beats them except the 28 and 35 gamers - Let's see if those guys are still returning those numbers 8 YEARS from now...

I dont expect you to change your mind about Chez CnC... I am simply making the point that saying 'the myth that DCE makes more tackles than other NRL halves has been disproved' is incorrect...

Should he be on 1.2M? Thats a separate argument... personally I think he is our best player more often than he is not and I take the point made by @Will on the hill. - name an NRL half in a sh*t team that kills it each week? It is a team sport and there is only so much a half can do without his forwards winning the battle...

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I don't think we win a premiership while he is signed on this current deal and in my book that's a massive fail for those who took the risk on that contract. We haven't even finished top 4 which is a minimum requirement to be contesting for a GF

The current deal, an 8 year deal on huge money, the pass mark had to be making Manly consistent contenders. Which hasn't happened so yep, a clear fail so far.
I'd say the only other way the deal could manage a pass mark would be a couple of top-4 finishes and at least one GF appearance. So that one is all but out the window too
Still like him as a player though. (Usually)

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Phil Blake was an excitement machine to a young Manly fan at the time like me.

For me too, an absolute joy to watch in those early years.

 

[cc eagle]

The current deal, an 8 year deal on huge money, the pass mark had to be making Manly consistent contenders. Which hasn't happened so yep, a clear fail so far.
I'd say the only other way the deal could manage a pass mark would be a couple of top-4 finishes and at least one GF appearance. So that one is all but out the window too
Still like him as a player though. (Usually)

So if we never resigned DCE who would be our half now ?

 

[Chip and Chase]

It is the fact that he puts that effort in week after week after week - unlike many in our side... his kicking game may not always be on but his effort always is... plenty of those tackles are made covering for misses by other blokes too...

Cherry works his a*se off and hardly ever spends time on the sideline... put another 12 guys around him making the same effort every week (like origin) and he will lead you to a premiership - like 2011...

Easy to blame him for everything because of his pay packet but his effort cannot be questioned (unlike others at times) - and his stats just back that up...

Look effort is great, and no one can deny he makes an effort. But I find this whole "he tries his ar$e off every week" excuse frustrating. It's insulting to the other 16 players because the inference is that they don't, plus I don't just want effort from my marquee player I want consistent match influencing performances. Effort should not excuse lack of ability, lack of skill or lack of execution at this level and in his role. Some times his effort detracts from his performance because he goes manic and loses composure, so it has a down side too.

And just on the whole tackling thing, without talking around in circles. Yes I agree he makes more tackles than most other halves. All I was trying to point out about the "myth" was that it isn't a significant enough amount of extra defensive work that it is a valid excuse for him not to be able to play a dominant half back role. I don't understand the "DCE didn't play so well today" observation getting met with a "yeh but he made 24 tackles so how is he supposed to do that and also run the team around the park" excuse. They are mutually exclusive propositions in my opinion at the low deviation from the norm that we are talking about here. Using this logic then the halfback who makes the least amount of tackles per game should be the most dominant.