[Resurrected] SACK Des Hasler!!

NRL 2011 2ndPremiers Hasler
NRL 20124thPrelim Final Toovey
NRL 20134thRunners Up Toovey
NRL 20142ndSemi Final Toovey
NRL 20159th Toovey
NRL 201613th Barrett
NRL 20176thQualifying Final Barrett
NRL 201815th Barrett
NRL 20196thSemi Final Hasler
NRL 202013th Hasler
NRL 20214thPrelim Final Hasler
NRL 202211th Hasler

Based on the pattern of results since 2018, we are almost guaranteed to finish second in the minor premiership next season. Yes I will let myself out.
 
NRL 2011 2ndPremiers Hasler
NRL 20124thPrelim Final Toovey
NRL 20134thRunners Up Toovey
NRL 20142ndSemi Final Toovey
NRL 20159th Toovey
NRL 201613th Barrett
NRL 20176thQualifying Final Barrett
NRL 201815th Barrett
NRL 20196thSemi Final Hasler
NRL 202013th Hasler
NRL 20214thPrelim Final Hasler
NRL 202211th Hasler

Based on the pattern of results since 2018, we are almost guaranteed to finish second in the minor premiership next season. Yes I will let myself out.
interesting when you look back at the stats ,Toovey coached us for 4 years and missed the finals once and was dudded in the 2013 GF all in a time of turmoil on and off the field ,and is labelled by some as not a good coach ,I still think he should have been given more of a chance, you could never ever doubt his passion and he could clearly coach .
 
NRL 2011 2ndPremiers Hasler
NRL 20124thPrelim Final Toovey
NRL 20134thRunners Up Toovey
NRL 20142ndSemi Final Toovey
NRL 20159th Toovey
NRL 201613th Barrett
NRL 20176thQualifying Final Barrett
NRL 201815th Barrett
NRL 20196thSemi Final Hasler
NRL 202013th Hasler
NRL 20214thPrelim Final Hasler
NRL 202211th Hasler

Based on the pattern of results since 2018, we are almost guaranteed to finish second in the minor premiership next season. Yes I will let myself out.
Tell him he's dreaming might be the phrase to use here but I'm confident as a supporter of this great club that next year will be much much better.

If its not then sure sack Des but in his 4 years so far he's shown enough to get another crack.
 
interesting when you look back at the stats ,Toovey coached us for 4 years and missed the finals once and was dudded in the 2013 GF all in a time of turmoil on and off the field ,and is labelled by some as not a good coach ,I still think he should have been given more of a chance, you could never ever doubt his passion and he could clearly coach .
What is it with Toovey? I love the bloke but I'm not sure he is a great coach is he?

He inherited a gun side fullness world class players and leaders that Des assembled.

Records and numbers look good sure but the RL community as a whole leans the other way hence his inability to get another gig.

For me personally i see that manly side being a bit like the QLD of the mid to late 2010's. The senior players knew what it took to win and drove the side forward. Meninga is a rubbish coach but probably a good motivation man just as Tooves was.

FFS tooves was even passed up for the Warriors and they went with Brown. Says a hell of a lot. He also failed in the ESL with Bradford did he not?
 
Tell him he's dreaming might be the phrase to use here but I'm confident as a supporter of this great club that next year will be much much better.

If its not then sure sack Des but in his 4 years so far he's shown enough to get another crack.
I know you disagree with stats (and you say it's agenda), but in these 4 years:
1. 4 worst defeats ever against 4 current teams (measured by for and against);
2. Friday could be twice that we've equalled our worst ever losing streak in 75 years;
3. Missing the finals 3 from 5 years;
4. Defeating just one top 4 team in three seasons;
5 Defeating two top 8 teams all season;
6. Apparently having his support staff being reviewed and / or sacked;
7. Second worst defensive record in the history of rugby league ever (NRL) over 20 games;
8. Highest scores against us ever by three teams

I mean, what I'm saying is how does another Rheem of 6-12 games next season make the difference then ? If after say 10 games we are bottom 2, what then ?
 
I know you disagree with stats (and you say it's agenda), but in these 4 years:
1. 4 worst defeats ever against 4 current teams (measured by for and against);
2. Friday could be twice that we've equalled our worst ever losing streak in 75 years;
3. Missing the finals 3 from 5 years;
4. Defeating just one top 4 team in three seasons;
5 Defeating two top 8 teams all season;
6. Apparently having his support staff being reviewed and / or sacked;
7. Second worst defensive record in the history of rugby league ever (NRL) over 20 games;
8. Highest scores against us ever by three teams

I mean, what I'm saying is how does another Rheem of 6-12 games next season make the difference then ? If after say 10 games we are bottom 2, what then ?
All look like valid stats however please help me out. I'm guessing u have been to Wikipedia for these stats?

Point 1. Which games were these? Also I'm guessing we have beaten some sides by records as well so would be interesting to see these compared as well.

Point 3. So you are already saying we miss the finals next year? This is Des's 4th year back.

Point 7. What? Please explain?

Point 8? I just don't understand this point? What do you mean? Just looking at the table as of today and there are a number of clubs with worse D than us.... by a long way. Last year the Dogs were horrible. Tiges? Newcastle over past 6 years? Did they not have worse D after 20 rounds? And while have you quoted 20 rounds? We are in round 23?

There are a lot of no doubt valid stats there i just wonder their validity?

Please be honest in this question ask.

Would you go back to pre Des and say the 4 years before were better than the last 4 years? I wouldn't which is why I'm happy to continue with the status quo.
 
One of the posters on this thread listed every available coach at the moment. They kindly put a link in one of my posts to it.

The list is a pretty poor one. Guys that have been fired after multiple poor campaigns. Guys with no runs on the board. Guys that would be fine as an assistant but not much else. Guys that have never made the top 8....

Is that whonyou want right now?

How can you say we are in worse shape after 4 years than Tbaz and fighting for the spoon?

We went to a semi final and a preliminary final. We played some of the best footy I've ever seen in 2021. We have been without Tommy all of 2022. In 2019 without Tommy the side was 10 min from another preliminary final bar the Jake binning.

This year has been tough. We played some tough top 4 footy in the middle rounds. Had we not faded out twice with big leads against top 4 sides we could still be in this.

Finally if any of you really blame Des for the fractured side we currently have then that says more about your desire for change than truth.

The bloke is trying to fix this **** show.

I'm my opinion we are no where near worse than when he took over.

Well said. We finished second last in 2018 under barrett.

And yet .... in 4 years he hasn't done better than Barrett did in his 2nd ...

But it ain't about whether he is a better coach than Barrett ... to me it is simply about how many years do you give someone to try and re-live their glory days ...

Canberra are up to 20 years with Cranky Coach ... and look happy to give him another decade ...

I'm not that patient ... if a coach isn't going forward and upward after 4 full years in charge .. I'm done.

Bring on Daffy Duck ..
 
I have been thinking about this one for a while and again I think the ownership structure is somewhat to blame for how Des has approached this season.

Des is on an incentive-based contract where he needed to finish in the top 6 to trigger another contract. This sort of short-term thinking incentives Des to play on a season-by-season approach

Almost every Manly fan knew the moment Tommy T went down so did our season. Des had a choice to either look to next year (within reason) or try grinding results to trigger the clause in his contract. This is despite our inability to beat the top 4 teams, meaning there was no difference between 6th and 15th.

Another example of this is why he continued to play Foz for the past 2 weeks rather than Shu or Weekes. We all know the team is better for having Foz in it but considering he is not here next year why not play a kid?

I am not saying Des's coaching does not need review but again no matter what changes are made without a fundamental change to the ownership approach or structure there will not be long term change
 
And yet .... in 4 years he hasn't done better than Barrett did in his 2nd ...

But it ain't about whether he is a better coach than Barrett ... to me it is simply about how many years do you give someone to try and re-live their glory days ...

Canberra are up to 20 years with Cranky Coach ... and look happy to give him another decade ...

I'm not that patient ... if a coach isn't going forward and upward after 4 full years in charge .. I'm done.

Bring on Daffy Duck ..
But he has??? Unless we live in alternate realities....

Barrett took us to 6th and one qualifying final. He also took us to 14th and 15th in his 3 years. He had us in spoon contention up until round 25 in 2018....

Des has taken us to a qualifying final and a preliminary final. In the same 3 year time frame. This season granted has been poor but we all knownthe reasons for a large part of that.

So I can't really go further than your first line.
 
I have been thinking about this one for a while and again I think the ownership structure is somewhat to blame for how Des has approached this season.

Des is on an incentive-based contract where he needed to finish in the top 6 to trigger another contract. This sort of short-term thinking incentives Des to play on a season-by-season approach

Almost every Manly fan knew the moment Tommy T went down so did our season. Des had a choice to either look to next year (within reason) or try grinding results to trigger the clause in his contract. This is despite our inability to beat the top 4 teams, meaning there was no difference between 6th and 15th.

Another example of this is why he continued to play Foz for the past 2 weeks rather than Shu or Weekes. We all know the team is better for having Foz in it but considering he is not here next year why not play a kid?

I am not saying Des's coaching does not need review but again no matter what changes are made without a fundamental change to the ownership approach or structure there will not be long term change

Are you saying Des approach to coaching is short sited because of his contract stipulations? To me, tbh that DOES make sense, particularly with team selections like you alluded to. The alternative is to extend Des, and possibly remove the KPI's (but would this be what you would actually want?)
 
Are you saying Des approach to coaching is short sited because of his contract stipulations? To me, tbh that DOES make sense, particularly with team selections like you alluded to. The alternative is to extend Des, and possibly remove the KPI's (but would this be what you would actually want?)
Got to be honest not sure of the solution but I can not believe that there is nothing there.

Re the coaching position I have no idea. My overall feeling is that without changing the structure above Tony M (involvement, investment, or general approach)

I can not see the coaching making a big difference. The next guy will come in get us competitive but I do not how we can crack into the top 4 on a consistent basis with the ownership structure we currently have
 
Finally if any of you really blame Des for the fractured side we currently have then that says more about your desire for change than truth.

The bloke is trying to fix this **** show.

EOL,

This part of your post intrigued me and I'm genuine in asking, what evidence is there that Des IS trying to fix the ****show as you call it?

Des fronting the media doing the work of the completely docile management team is not something I see as fixing anything at all, so I'm intrigued what other evidence there is to say he is trying to fix anything.

Again, I'm not asking for or suggesting he be removed but when one defends Des on the basis of what else is out there and thus, there is no one better, then you also need to be able to demonstrate what factors or matters are afoot to indicate he is actually improving himself and the team.

He may well be a miracle worker next year however when we're hoping to improve and await the future with rose coloured glasses ala, "when we get all the players back" then we as a Club are continuing to accept "hope" in place of change.

"Failure isn’t fatal, but failure to change might be” - John Wooden
 
This game will determine if DES has lost the dressing room.
Why ?

The dogs will be out to win this one, i feel they will be looking to do to ensure a payback for Des while he is on shaky ground. if we get walloped its one more secure nail in Des coaching carrer coffin and it prooves he has lost the dressign room.

If Penrith can play a good aprt of the season with a spare parts team and still beat top 8 teams we have no excuses. The coach is the key ingredient to gettign the best out of each player and the team as a whole.

If the coach means anything to the players they will ensure a win to build postivley for next year.

ps. i hope DCE has this playing in his mind as he needs to be placed on alert also.
 
Des has already well and truly lost the dressing room. Cant see anything different this week to last sadly. They won’t play for him.
 
EOL,

This part of your post intrigued me and I'm genuine in asking, what evidence is there that Des IS trying to fix the ****show as you call it?

Des fronting the media doing the work of the completely docile management team is not something I see as fixing anything at all, so I'm intrigued what other evidence there is to say he is trying to fix anything.

Again, I'm not asking for or suggesting he be removed but when one defends Des on the basis of what else is out there and thus, there is no one better, then you also need to be able to demonstrate what factors or matters are afoot to indicate he is actually improving himself and the team.

He may well be a miracle worker next year however when we're hoping to improve and await the future with rose coloured glasses ala, "when we get all the players back" then we as a Club are continuing to accept "hope" in place of change.

"Failure isn’t fatal, but failure to change might be” - John Wooden
We all get the same info (apart from a few club insiders) and I guess its about how you decide to view it.

From my point of view which will be different to many Des is Manly. Sure there will be those that say his time at the dogs destroyed any legacy he will ever have at the club but for me that was just business. He was pushed out the door by a dysfunctional board and split owners.

The guy has always been front and centre attempting to protect his players. He appears from the outside a very good man manager and someone players will run through walls for. Sure perhaps todays modern day prima Donna's don't agree but all I see is a guy focused in fixing issues and playing footy.

I bet if you asked any of the 2006 - 2011 players for us and a lot of the 2012 - 2016 dogs they would all back that up.

You may not like him but Ennis speaks very highly of Des. So does James Graham whenever the topic comes up.

So to attempt to answer your question directly.

For me the rainbow presser hit home how much this club and football means to this guy. The owner and or management team should have fronted up that presser but no. Our coach and captain was left to pick up the pices.

Regardless of result Des appeared at MF side in his court case.

DW was collected from the watch house after his arrest for DV by Des. Not by a family member or friend. By his coach....

In general coaches don't do that. Des appears to want to help whenever he can. I can only go by what I see (which will be different to some others).

So when I say he's trying to fix the **** show thats exactly what I see. Many would have walked or let others take the heat. Not Des.
 
This game will determine if DES has lost the dressing room.
Why ?

The dogs will be out to win this one, i feel they will be looking to do to ensure a payback for Des while he is on shaky ground. if we get walloped its one more secure nail in Des coaching carrer coffin and it prooves he has lost the dressign room.

If Penrith can play a good aprt of the season with a spare parts team and still beat top 8 teams we have no excuses. The coach is the key ingredient to gettign the best out of each player and the team as a whole.

If the coach means anything to the players they will ensure a win to build postivley for next year.

ps. i hope DCE has this playing in his mind as he needs to be placed on alert also.
I don't know why I do this but I just keep biting back.

I just don't see why this next game will or won't prove he's lost the dressing room.

This is not the West tigers where players were actively leaking information about player discontent. This isn't the raiders where last year the playing group was hughly fractured looking from the outside and having current and past players actively speaking out against the coach.

I just don't understand where this 'lost the dressing room' idea started?

Was the dressing room lost when we made the preliminary final last year after loosing 4 in a row? Was the dressing room lost when we were on that mid season run?

The dressing room was fractured my upper management and their inability to consider everyone's views and or beliefs. All I've seen is a coach that's been shat on again buy the powers above left to fix the mess he didn't create.

Using Penrith as an example is totally useless. Perhaps you could use them from 5 - 10 years ago when they too were a mess from the top down.

Finally do you really think the rainbow saga would have went down well at Penrith with their large poly connection. It would have been exactly the same apart from the fact that are currently a winning side so that may have masked the cracks.
 
I don't know why I do this but I just keep biting back.

I just don't see why this next game will or won't prove he's lost the dressing room.

This is not the West tigers where players were actively leaking information about player discontent. This isn't the raiders where last year the playing group was hughly fractured looking from the outside and having current and past players actively speaking out against the coach.

I just don't understand where this 'lost the dressing room' idea started?

Was the dressing room lost when we made the preliminary final last year after loosing 4 in a row? Was the dressing room lost when we were on that mid season run?

The dressing room was fractured my upper management and their inability to consider everyone's views and or beliefs. All I've seen is a coach that's been shat on again buy the powers above left to fix the mess he didn't create.

Using Penrith as an example is totally useless. Perhaps you could use them from 5 - 10 years ago when they too were a mess from the top down.

Finally do you really think the rainbow saga would have went down well at Penrith with their large poly connection. It would have been exactly the same apart from the fact that are currently a winning side so that may have masked the cracks.

Mate, we all bite back, coz we are all passionate and love the team. You do it respectfully and well thought out. Nothing wrong with a bit of a difference of opinion, so keep on biting mate :thumbsup:
 
We all get the same info (apart from a few club insiders) and I guess its about how you decide to view it.

From my point of view which will be different to many Des is Manly. Sure there will be those that say his time at the dogs destroyed any legacy he will ever have at the club but for me that was just business. He was pushed out the door by a dysfunctional board and split owners.

The guy has always been front and centre attempting to protect his players. He appears from the outside a very good man manager and someone players will run through walls for. Sure perhaps todays modern day prima Donna's don't agree but all I see is a guy focused in fixing issues and playing footy.

I bet if you asked any of the 2006 - 2011 players for us and a lot of the 2012 - 2016 dogs they would all back that up.

You may not like him but Ennis speaks very highly of Des. So does James Graham whenever the topic comes up.

So to attempt to answer your question directly.

For me the rainbow presser hit home how much this club and football means to this guy. The owner and or management team should have fronted up that presser but no. Our coach and captain was left to pick up the pices.

Regardless of result Des appeared at MF side in his court case.

DW was collected from the watch house after his arrest for DV by Des. Not by a family member or friend. By his coach....

In general coaches don't do that. Des appears to want to help whenever he can. I can only go by what I see (which will be different to some others).

So when I say he's trying to fix the **** show thats exactly what I see. Many would have walked or let others take the heat. Not Des.

I appreciate the reply and to be fair, all the points you have raised are both sound and valid.

I have never said that I dislike Des, to the contrary I have the upmost admiration for his achievements both as a player and coach and respect the dedication that he shows towards his players, seeing them as human beings first and athletes second (e.g. your mention of the DW case, Manase case and others before that).

Des is very passionate about developing people through sport.

A majority of coaches (in times gone by) may not have gone "above and beyond" as Des has done and continues to do; the bond this relationship creates is one which engenders a spirit of camaraderie in the squad and outside of the game, as he is viewed by many as a surrogate "father figure".

Des is rightfully seen as a "man manager" (one of the "rare coaches" who has succeeded and was not a product of one of the so-called "five coaching pillars") and the results [he] achieved were reflective of his steadfast and resolute support of each and every one of his players.

There are a plethora of articles written about Des quoting current and former players who speak glowing of the man, the coach and again, I am not disputing this at all and we both agree that Des was front and centre of the recent "fiasco" due to the insipid management of our Club.

I believe where our differences (for lack of a better word) lie is the "present versus past" tense of his abilities; I can not and will not dispute any of what Des has laid before us and achieved for the Club however, as Wayne Bennett has found, the aura which may have carried a coach throughout his career is no longer the cache that it once was.

The player of today has an army of advisors who scrutinise the entire opportunity a club presents them, the coach (who it is and thoughts of others about them), the football departments, the methodologies/football orthodoxy the club has planned for "X number of years" as well as the executive of a club.

Des is intimately aware of our cap position and has built a roster to ensure that we are cap compliant; we can't sign a "good player" so we look to the young members of the squad who could probably use a game or two in these last rounds however, injury/ies aside, some were not given much of an opportunity to showcase their skills (ten minutes here and there in my humble opinion does not count).

As a fan I am not asking Des to throw them to the lions but at the same time let's see what they can do, some may succeed and others may fail but without the chance to see that, what changes do we, as fans see for the future that give us "hope".

Des having his full-roster will go along way to helping his cause and there were times this year where we played quite well but there were more times when with a full-strength squad, we were found out, excruciatingly slow speed at the ruck, forwards that were seemingly flat-footed most of the time, we had issues well before 25 July 2022.

It will be an interesting off-season for our Club, I want to believe that Des is the man to lead us forward but I struggle to see any collateral from Des that leads me to believe that we won't be having the same conversations next year.
 

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