omnipotent beings discussion

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The hypocrisy in this post is truly remarkable. If I continue to push my beliefs??? LOL. Just scroll back say 10 pages, then count the amount of times you have posted nasty, disrespectful stuff toward those of us who profess faith (when we have CLEARLY stopped responding) because it really is astounding. You’re like a little rabid dog barking the same thing until someone (usually me) comes out to play. Then when we do respond, you quickly slip on the logic man of righteousness cape and begin asking the same stuff all over again. It’s INSANE!

Your post about never underestimating the stupidity of humans, particularly when in groups is a ripper. Anyway, good luck, I will await your next tantrum... but I may hold back for a little longer and see how many times you post WHERE HAVE ALL THE CHRISTIANS GONE?
Not being hypocritical at all. I've said your religion is worthy of ridicule. I'm not the only one one here who thinks that...but I will say that I'm not usually the first to start throwing stones at it.
If you want to defend it, then what do you expect. I ask the same questions because I'm still waiting on the answers to those questions!
 
The hypocrisy in this post is truly remarkable. If I continue to push my beliefs??? LOL. Just scroll back say 10 pages, then count the amount of times you have posted nasty, disrespectful stuff toward those of us who profess faith (when we have CLEARLY stopped responding) because it really is astounding. You’re like a little rabid dog barking the same thing until someone (usually me) comes out to play. Then when we do respond, you quickly slip on the logic man of righteousness cape and begin asking the same stuff all over again. It’s INSANE!

Your post about never underestimating the stupidity of humans, particularly when in groups is a ripper. Anyway, good luck, I will await your next tantrum... but I may hold back for a little longer and see how many times you post WHERE HAVE ALL THE CHRISTIANS GONE?
Not being hypocritical at all. I've said your religion is worthy of ridicule. I'm not the only one one here who thinks that...but I will say that I'm not usually the first to start throwing stones at it.
If you want to defend it, then what do you expect. I ask the same questions because I'm still waiting on the answers to those questions!
 
This old chestnut again! We are all beating up on the poor old Christians again (again more classic cult like behaviour to play victim when it starts to go wrong).
I don't think I'm going to cure the problems of the world chatting on a football forum. I do however think that if people start to think (and talk) about their beliefs and opinions that we will start moving towards solving some of these problems. I posted a link about charity some time ago now which I suggest you watch and comment on (and multiple times) - but you were far more interested in defending your precious beliefs. And I think this is the problem of faith, belief and the idea that these and our opinions are somehow more important than actual progress.
I've given you multiple opportunities to explain the reasoning behind your faith and why it should be used to justify stances on particular issues. But you continue to present the same argument that I just can't understand or you just dodge the question and attack science again. And speaking of which, I have been willing and, in most cases, able to answer these questions. I have done my best to explain them and present evidence for them - not once have I suggested that you are incapable of understanding and personality I find that a pretty high minded place to come from.
I've also let you know that I do plenty of hands on work in an effort to improve the world. My partner actually works to help the homeless and we do what we can to improve the local community. Personally, I have and continue to work to bring sanitation to and reduce the spread of disease in less fortunate parts of the world - please don't make assumptions about what my contribution to the world is. But, this is irrelevant to my argument here - bad ideas are bad ideas and they should be treated as such. If you think your beliefs and thinking aren't as flawed as I claim they are then stand up for them.
Stop playing the victim, give me some actual evidence and explain to me what I am missing rather than stating my inferiority.
I would never presume to know what your contributions to the world might be, but now I do. If I have made any, I certainly won’t be telling people about them.

You are not inferior... as opposed to evolutionists, I believe that every human life has been fearfully and wonderfully made, and every person is worth Jesus dying on a cross.

I believe in science... I don’t believe in pseudo science. You claim to answer my questions, so I will ask you this one yet AGAIN. I will appeal to your logical reasoning for a riposte because science cannot provide an answer to it.

Question- How does logic explain the innumerable symbiotic relationships in our cells, bodies and planet which are required to sustain life on earth? They are everywhere around us and in us. Systems which are dependent upon systems in order that we can live and reproduce.
 
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Not being hypocritical at all. I've said your religion is worthy of ridicule. I'm not the only one one here who thinks that...but I will say that I'm not usually the first to start throwing stones at it.
If you want to defend it, then what do you expect. I ask the same questions because I'm still waiting on the answers to those questions!
The point I was making has passed you by. You posted that I am pushing my beliefs on here, but when we go away, you continually call us out. Go back and read through for yourself... it’s hilarious.
 
I would never presume to know what your contributions to the world might be, but now I know. If I have made any, I certainly won’t be telling people about them.

You are not inferior... as opposed to evolutionists, I believe that every human life has been fearfully and wonderfully made, and every person is worth Jesus dying on a cross.

I believe in science... I don’t believe in pseudo science. You claim to answer my questions, so I will ask you this one yet AGAIN. I will appeal to your logical reasoning for a riposte because science cannot provide an answer to it.

Question- How does logic explain the innumerable symbiotic relationships in our cells, bodies and planet which are required to sustain life on earth? They are everywhere around us and in us. Systems which are dependent upon systems in order that we can live and reproduce.
In all honesty I can't remember you asking that question. But you will need to be more specific with your question. Exactly which relationship would you like me to discuss with you? Although, in regard to logic, it won't provide an answer. It is a tool which we can use to formulate a hypothesis which we can then test using scientific theory. Results can then be used (with logic) to create models which represent our best understanding of a problem and these are continually improved and sometimes rejected as new information is discovered. But please let me know exactly what you want to discuss and I will do my best.
 
The point I was making has passed you by. You posted that I am pushing my beliefs on here, but when we go away, you continually call us out. Go back and read through for yourself... it’s hilarious.
Because...I really want to know the answers....but no one will give me them...you are all so selfish....knowing the meaning of the universe but not showing others how to get there!
 
In all honesty I can't remember you asking that question. But you will need to be more specific with your question. Exactly which relationship would you like me to discuss with you? Although, in regard to logic, it won't provide an answer. It is a tool which we can use to formulate a hypothesis which we can then test using scientific theory. Results can then be used (with logic) to create models which represent our best understanding of a problem and these are continually improved and sometimes rejected as new information is discovered. But please let me know exactly what you want to discuss and I will do my best.
Well then, let’s start with these three.
  • plant life and animals... they produce oxygen and we all produce carbon dioxide.
  • Cells and mitochondria.
  • Flowering plants and flying insects.
 
In all honesty I can't remember you asking that question. But you will need to be more specific with your question. Exactly which relationship would you like me to discuss with you? Although, in regard to logic, it won't provide an answer. It is a tool which we can use to formulate a hypothesis which we can then test using scientific theory. Results can then be used (with logic) to create models which represent our best understanding of a problem and these are continually improved and sometimes rejected as new information is discovered. But please let me know exactly what you want to discuss and I will do my best.
So by your own summation, logic is illogical when it is applied to the origins of life and the universe.
 
There’s literally billions of people who are right now being oppressed under cruel and unforgiving dictatorships, poverty unlike anything we’ve ever known, and westerners carry on with this kind of trash, labelling it compassion and social justice.

God help us if we ever had to go to war.

Is this an admission that after 2000 years ... Christ's mission on Earth has been an absolute failure ?

Or do you suggest he should wipe out all humanity and life forms again .. and reboot with another breeding pair Ark ?
 
Well then, let’s start with these three.
  • plant life and animals... they produce oxygen and we all produce carbon dioxide.
  • Cells and mitochondria.
  • Flowering plants and flying insects.
I will skip the second one for now, as it's slightly different. But I think the other two can be covered by one simple premise. The creation of one led to an environment which allowed the other to both thrive and diversify. I think the problem here is that you are stuck in the creationist view point that things suddenly sprang into existence, which just didn't happen changes are small and take place of millions/billions of years.

Keep in mind here that you have asked questions on macro and micro biology as well as geology, evolution and atmosheric science. I am not an expert in any of these specific fields but I have touched on all fields in my study so I will give it my best.

Lets start with flowering plants and insects, and I'm guessing that what you are going for (*at least in part) here is Darwin's "abominable mystery” - I really wish you would stop looking at the efforts to create a model OVER 100 YEARS AGO - as I have said, the models change and improve as we look and find new information and discard what we can disprove.

Firstly, insects existed well before flowering plants (angiosperms) and we can see this from the fossil record. We can also see that these specimen far less numerous and diverse than they are today. Plants at the time (and still today) would use the wind to spread pollen to come into contact with other plants to create new seeds. Insects at this time would have been feeding of plants, including pollen. Then at some point we have a mutation in a plant species which created pollen which was an appealing food source for an existing insect. This would have allowed the particular mutation to lead to more successful pollination as the pollen would come into contact with plants at a greater distance and with a higher hit rate. If more genetic material, which included the new mutation, made it to other plants then this mutation would be more prevalent in the offspring of those plants. Thus the those plants became more common in the environment. Now if those plants are more common in the environment then there is a change and an opportunity for new mutations. So insects which can make better use of increase of these plants will also increase and mutations will lead to successful insects passing on more genetic material and unsuccessful mutations passing on less. Remember we aren't talking about huge changes but tiny ones, lots of them, over a very long period of time. And we can observe these sorts of changes today over decades.
With a rise in pollen eating insects there will also come a rise in predator species such as wasps. The wasps kill and harvest insects which have been feeding on pollen and store them in nests and essentially planting seeds with added nutrients for the plants (again they were doing it before flowing plants came along but the change in conditions created an improved opportunity and increased numbers).
Now the same process will continue with the plants. If the insects become too efficient at eating the pollen then plants which with pollen slightly higher may do better than something sitting at ground level - which could give rise to an advantage to flying insects. A mutation creates part of the plant or a byproduct which is more appealing than the pollen, so less needs to be produced but still comes into contact with insects and the mutation is more effective and successful. More of this genetic material is passed on and the trait becomes more common. Mutations which take further advantage of this efficiency occur and are passed on until you reach something similar to nectar. At the same, some wasp like insects which are visiting plants to harvest the insects feeding there may see start to see the nectar as a potential food source and those with mutations which allow it to be processed more efficiently will use it as a greater food source and there will be a divergence between these wasps as some begin to utilise this new and increasing food source while others continue to utilise the existing one. Then we have a cataclysmic event; whatever wiped out the dinosaurs and a large amount of plant life with it. When the dust finally settled, the most successful plants were those which could reproduce the most efficiently - the angiosperms. And they spread, giving an increase in new environments to colonize and more genetic material to produce new mutations and take advantage of these new conditions. This process continues in tiny gradual changes until we have modern flowers and modern pollinators which have evolved over time, with successful mutations which created an advantage of the environment of the time.

Please let me know where you have any issues. But again I need to add:
  • None of this tells people how to live their lives.
  • It is not a belief system it is a model which is constantly changing to reflect the investigations that scientists are doing to better understand it.
  • It does not disprove the idea of some great creator being (as nothing can) and I don't use it as such.
  • Attempting to discredit it does nothing to prove your idea of an Abrahamic god and you are simply trying put pressure on what you believe is a competing idea. They are not equivalent and all you are doing is distracting from the fact that there is ZERO good evidence to support your belief and your justification for prejudice.
 
I will skip the second one for now, as it's slightly different. But I think the other two can be covered by one simple premise. The creation of one led to an environment which allowed the other to both thrive and diversify. I think the problem here is that you are stuck in the creationist view point that things suddenly sprang into existence, which just didn't happen changes are small and take place of millions/billions of years.

Keep in mind here that you have asked questions on macro and micro biology as well as geology, evolution and atmosheric science. I am not an expert in any of these specific fields but I have touched on all fields in my study so I will give it my best.

Lets start with flowering plants and insects, and I'm guessing that what you are going for (*at least in part) here is Darwin's "abominable mystery” - I really wish you would stop looking at the efforts to create a model OVER 100 YEARS AGO - as I have said, the models change and improve as we look and find new information and discard what we can disprove.

Firstly, insects existed well before flowering plants (angiosperms) and we can see this from the fossil record. We can also see that these specimen far less numerous and diverse than they are today. Plants at the time (and still today) would use the wind to spread pollen to come into contact with other plants to create new seeds. Insects at this time would have been feeding of plants, including pollen. Then at some point we have a mutation in a plant species which created pollen which was an appealing food source for an existing insect. This would have allowed the particular mutation to lead to more successful pollination as the pollen would come into contact with plants at a greater distance and with a higher hit rate. If more genetic material, which included the new mutation, made it to other plants then this mutation would be more prevalent in the offspring of those plants. Thus the those plants became more common in the environment. Now if those plants are more common in the environment then there is a change and an opportunity for new mutations. So insects which can make better use of increase of these plants will also increase and mutations will lead to successful insects passing on more genetic material and unsuccessful mutations passing on less. Remember we aren't talking about huge changes but tiny ones, lots of them, over a very long period of time. And we can observe these sorts of changes today over decades.
With a rise in pollen eating insects there will also come a rise in predator species such as wasps. The wasps kill and harvest insects which have been feeding on pollen and store them in nests and essentially planting seeds with added nutrients for the plants (again they were doing it before flowing plants came along but the change in conditions created an improved opportunity and increased numbers).
Now the same process will continue with the plants. If the insects become too efficient at eating the pollen then plants which with pollen slightly higher may do better than something sitting at ground level - which could give rise to an advantage to flying insects. A mutation creates part of the plant or a byproduct which is more appealing than the pollen, so less needs to be produced but still comes into contact with insects and the mutation is more effective and successful. More of this genetic material is passed on and the trait becomes more common. Mutations which take further advantage of this efficiency occur and are passed on until you reach something similar to nectar. At the same, some wasp like insects which are visiting plants to harvest the insects feeding there may see start to see the nectar as a potential food source and those with mutations which allow it to be processed more efficiently will use it as a greater food source and there will be a divergence between these wasps as some begin to utilise this new and increasing food source while others continue to utilise the existing one. Then we have a cataclysmic event; whatever wiped out the dinosaurs and a large amount of plant life with it. When the dust finally settled, the most successful plants were those which could reproduce the most efficiently - the angiosperms. And they spread, giving an increase in new environments to colonize and more genetic material to produce new mutations and take advantage of these new conditions. This process continues in tiny gradual changes until we have modern flowers and modern pollinators which have evolved over time, with successful mutations which created an advantage of the environment of the time.

Please let me know where you have any issues. But again I need to add:
  • None of this tells people how to live their lives.
  • It is not a belief system it is a model which is constantly changing to reflect the investigations that scientists are doing to better understand it.
  • It does not disprove the idea of some great creator being (as nothing can) and I don't use it as such.
  • Attempting to discredit it does nothing to prove your idea of an Abrahamic god and you are simply trying put pressure on what you believe is a competing idea. They are not equivalent and all you are doing is distracting from the fact that there is ZERO good evidence to support your belief and your justification for prejudice.
I don’t tell people how to live their lives, any such assertion is complete rubbish. The choice is entirely yours... @MuzztheEagle makes those type of decisions for himself, it’s called free will, an amazing thing in itself. To believe symbiosis has evolved one part without the other over time Is absurd and illogical. How did the trees receive carbon dioxide or the animals breathe. Small changes over million and billions of years hey?

But I respect your right to believe it.

Nobody is holding a gun to anyone’s head telling them they must follow Jesus Christ... so why let it bother you. Just a question though. Will you raise your kids to lie, steel, murder etc, or will you teach them that those things are wrong? Can I send a mate to come over to your house and spend a night in bed with your wife?
 
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I don’t tell people how to live their lives, any such assertion is complete rubbish. The choice is entirely yours... @MuzztheEagle makes those type of decisions for himself, it’s called free will, an amazing thing in itself. To believe symbiosis has evolved one part without the other over time Is absurd and illogical. How did the trees receive carbon dioxide or the animals breathe. Small changes over million and billions of years hey?

But I respect your right to believe it.

Nobody is holding a gun to anyone’s head telling them they must follow Jesus Christ... so why let it bother you. Just a question though. Will you raise your kids to lie, steel, murder etc, or will you teach them that those things are wrong? Can I send a mate to come over to your house and spend a night in bed with your wife?
Once, again Ken your true colors are coming to light. You have now called me a dog, threatened physical violence and generally attempted to attack my character. It seems Jesus hasn't taken you as far from your past as you claim. If you want to question the ideas I put forward then by all means do so. But do not resort to personal attacks, I give that respect to you. People deserve respect - Ideas do not.

But, in regards to your response. Specifically "To believe symbiosis has evolved one part without the other over time Is absurd and illogical".
I have not stated this, in fact I did quite the opposite what I said was very small changes in one will opportunities for another. Opportunities are taken advantage of by small mutations which benifit and that benifit leads to an increased amount of the genetic material reproducing. The two benifit each other and drive the evolutionary change, but it is done in small, random changes. E.G. For the number of a particular pollinator to increase its reproduction it is mutually beneficiary to more effectively potentate the plant from which it feeds. If the plant produces a mutation which leads to more effective pollination then more reproduction will occur. With more food available, it's pollinators will also increase with the increase of food supply. Then flip it around, if the pollinator produces a mutation which increases pollination then the plant will benefit. The insect may not directly have anything that benefits them but over time the number of plants that it pollinates will increase as a result of the efficiency. So again, increase in food supply, increase in reproductive capacity of the pollinators with the mutation.

If you still think it absurd then please highlight where and I will attempt to explain it more clearly for you.
 
First bacteria to second bacteria- “I’m going to make a third bacteria and I’m going to make it female. She will be my female and you can’t have her?”
Second Bacteria- “I’m going to kill you c@@@“t”
Third bacteria- “That’s murder asshole...”
Second Bacteria- “Alrighty... I’m going to start making a fish then.”
First Bacteria- “Why?”
Second Bacteria- “So all the smart people can laugh at those fools who believe in God.”
 
Once, again Ken your true colors are coming to light. You have now called me a dog, threatened physical violence and generally attempted to attack my character. It seems Jesus hasn't taken you as far from your past as you claim. If you want to question the ideas I put forward then by all means do so. But do not resort to personal attacks, I give that respect to you. People deserve respect - Ideas do not.

But, in regards to your response. Specifically "To believe symbiosis has evolved one part without the other over time Is absurd and illogical".
I have not stated this, in fact I did quite the opposite what I said was very small changes in one will opportunities for another. Opportunities are taken advantage of by small mutations which benifit and that benifit leads to an increased amount of the genetic material reproducing. The two benifit each other and drive the evolutionary change, but it is done in small, random changes. E.G. For the number of a particular pollinator to increase its reproduction it is mutually beneficiary to more effectively potentate the plant from which it feeds. If the plant produces a mutation which leads to more effective pollination then more reproduction will occur. With more food available, it's pollinators will also increase with the increase of food supply. Then flip it around, if the pollinator produces a mutation which increases pollination then the plant will benefit. The insect may not directly have anything that benefits them but over time the number of plants that it pollinates will increase as a result of the efficiency. So again, increase in food supply, increase in reproductive capacity of the pollinators with the mutation.

If you still think it absurd then please highlight where and I will attempt to explain it more clearly for you.
Where did I threaten you? (This stuff is worthy of a book) Again I ask... will you teach your children that lying, stealing and murder is wrong? Do you expect your wife to remain faithful?
 
You people... sheesh. I called you a dog??? I used the example of a yappy little poodle to explain the way you post countless degrading videos etc to call us Christian fools out, and this upsets you. Can you not see the boundless hypocrisy in such a claim?
 
Where did I threaten you? (This stuff is worthy of a book) Again I ask... will you teach your children that lying, stealing and murder is wrong? Do you expect your wife to remain faithful?
Again, you attack my character and mention nothing about the response that I gave to your question. Let's stick to the discussion (and the questions you asked of me) at hand and keep the personal attacks out of it. Why should I answer your questions if, when I give a response, you switch to a personal attack or change the subject?
Why shouldn't I just return to posting memes about the ridiculousness for Christianity?
 
Better than that - why don't I turn to the specific beliefs that you were so unwilling to state (I wonder why)? Believe me, I'm being pretty respectful here and I'm doing what I can to understand you and hear you out. But, I'm only in second gear! If you want me to start tearing apart your young earth ideas - that the majority of Christians in the world would disagree with you on, Then bring it on :)
 
Mutations are generally always a bad thing in living creatures... except in evolution and X-Men comic books. Entropy is in full swing throughout the universe... whereby everything degrades over time. Except in evolution.
 
Team P W L PD Pts
10 9 1 124 20
10 8 2 81 18
10 7 3 70 16
10 7 3 69 16
11 7 4 59 14
10 6 4 -10 14
11 6 5 107 12
11 6 5 -9 12
10 5 5 -56 12
11 5 5 30 11
10 4 6 15 10
11 5 6 -12 10
11 4 6 -7 9
10 3 7 -103 8
10 2 8 -81 6
10 2 8 -91 6
10 1 9 -186 4
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