omnipotent beings discussion

[Woodsie]

only the "12 inches" I've got in my nether regions ......

This was a sensible discussion thread once ... with facts on one side ... and let's be kind ... wishful thinking on the other ....

 

[Woodsie]

​

 

[Kevinward777]

​

There is this one really important thing that non believers never get... something which can only occur once a person comes to a point in their life where they see that they are not the morally wholesome creatures they assumed themselves to be. When they stop comparing themselves to rapists and child murderers in weighing up whether or not they are good. It’s easy to look at Ted Bundy and give oneself a pat on the back. I did that for three decades.

God declares that he will in fact reveal his existence to those who humble themselves and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. He claims to be a supernatural God after all. However, shaking our fists at the sky while saying show me and then I will believe is the same thing they did to Jesus Christ when he was dying on a cross. And anyone who claims they believe in evidence need only go to Jerusalem to know that Jesus did exist. That he claimed to be the son of God, died a criminal’s death on a cross and split history in two. To claim this is not true is completely absurd.

It’s the experiential side of being a Christian which ultimately binds an individual to a steadfast, unshakable belief. In other words things happen! Unexplainable events and encounters that defy all logic and reason. It transcends faith and becomes something else entirely. Would I be prepared to share some of my own AMAZING experiences with others? Yes and no. I have done so in the past with persons who were ready to see themselves as they truly were, then witnessed them come to a place of belief and transformation. But I wouldn’t bother even trying with anybody who just mocks and ridicules what they don’t want to know. There is no point... if you don’t see yourself as someone who is in need of saving then the bible states that God will leave you to your own devices. We all have free will.

The bible also states that God will use the foolish things of this world to confound the wisdom of the wise. I see this simple truth unfolding around me every single day.

Unfortunately, there are many people who have done whatever they could to tarnish and corrupt God’s word. Charlatans, con men, hypocrites and Christians alike. But it is not up to me to judge another man’s walk, or to claim the higher ground. I have been saved by grace through faith... and life is so very very good! It’s such a great feeling seeing people who knew me twenty years ago, walk away confounded, unable to comprehend that I am the same man who’d spent his life earning the kind of reputation I did.

Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now am found was blind but now I see.

 

[Kevinward777]

Good .... so you accept your kinship with bananas ....

No I’m of the belief that the banana and every living thing shares the Creator’s DNA.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

There is this one really important thing that non believers never get... something which can only occur once a person comes to a point in their life where they see that they are not the morally wholesome creatures they assumed themselves to be. When they stop comparing themselves to rapists and child murderers in weighing up whether or not they are good. It’s easy to look at Ted Bundy and give oneself a pat on the back. I did that for three decades.

God declares that he will in fact reveal his existence to those who humble themselves and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. He claims to be a supernatural God after all. However, shaking our fists at the sky while saying show me and then I will believe is the same thing they did to Jesus Christ when he was dying on a cross. And anyone who claims they believe in evidence need only go to Jerusalem to know that Jesus did exist. That he claimed to be the son of God, died a criminal’s death on a cross and split history in two. To claim this is not true is completely absurd.

It’s the experiential side of being a Christian which ultimately binds an individual to a steadfast, unshakable belief. In other words things happen! Unexplainable events and encounters that defy all logic and reason. It transcends faith and becomes something else entirely. Would I be prepared to share some of my own AMAZING experiences with others? Yes and no. I have done so in the past with persons who were ready to see themselves as they truly were, then witnessed them come to a place of belief and transformation. But I wouldn’t bother even trying with anybody who just mocks and ridicules what they don’t want to know. There is no point... if you don’t see yourself as someone who is in need of saving then the bible states that God will leave you to your own devices. We all have free will.

The bible also states that God will use the foolish things of this world to confound the wisdom of the wise. I see this simple truth unfolding around me every single day.

Unfortunately, there are many people who have done whatever they could to tarnish and corrupt God’s word. Charlatans, con men, hypocrites and Christians alike. But it is not up to me to judge another man’s walk, or to claim the higher ground. I have been saved by grace through faith... and life is so very very good! It’s such a great feeling seeing people who knew me twenty years ago, walk away confounded, unable to comprehend that I am the same man who’d spent his life earning the kind of reputation I did.

Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now am found was blind but now I see.

Serious question Ken,
How does one tell the true Christians apart from the con men and charlatans?

 

[manlyfan76]

Here is an example of evolution im sure you will understand Kev

 

[Kevinward777]

Here is an example of evolution im sure you will understand Kev

View attachment 14348

Lol... funny as.

 

[Kevinward777]

Serious question Ken,
How does one tell the true Christians apart from the con men and charlatans?

Well, when the scriptures state that in latter times there will be an upsurge in false preachers who are only interested in devising ways in which to get hold of our money, and then I see that very thing happening all around the world, it’s fairly easy to discern that the preacher/church fits the bill. I don’t even go to a church.

The churches in New Testament scripture were all communities of early believers who came together en mass following the resurrection.

In terms of who is a “real” Christian... it is anybody who claims Jesus as their Saviour, believes in their heart that he was the Son of God who died for their sins and was resurrected from the dead. It’s not a loose affiliation with religion or an embracing of any particular denomination.

 

[Eagle thru 'n' thru]

"A new command I give to you: Love one another. As I have love you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." Jesus

Galatians 5:19-21 "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, self ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkeness, orgies, and the like. (Paul) I warn you, as I did before, that thise who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God". The apostle Paul

Galatians 5:22-24 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such thingsthere is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

Well, when the scriptures state that in latter times there will be an upsurge in false preachers who are only interested in devising ways in which to get hold of our money, and then I see that very thing happening all around the world, it’s fairly easy to discern that the preacher/church fits the bill. I don’t even go to a church.

The churches in New Testament scripture were all communities of early believers who came together en mass following the resurrection.

In terms of who is a “real” Christian... it is anybody who claims Jesus as their Saviour, believes in their heart that he was the Son of God who died for their sins and was resurrected from the dead. It’s not a loose affiliation with religion or an embracing of any particular denomination.

But you have advocated that I and others seek out those with more/correct knowledge of the scriptures. Isn't that a dangerous idea in a world filled with so many false preachers? What about your own journey, did you have any guidance or did you find the truth on your own?

As for the false teachers. If they do believe that Jesus was who think he is then will they be saved/rewarded? Even if they hoarded money from others, tore families apart, covered up sex abuse etc.
I'm curious who you think will make the cut? Mormons, JoHo's, Andrea Yates?

 

[MuzztheEagle]

"A new command I give to you: Love one another. As I have love you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." Jesus

Galatians 5:19-21 "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, self ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkeness, orgies, and the like. (Paul) I warn you, as I did before, that thise who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God". The apostle Paul

Galatians 5:22-24 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such thingsthere is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

Luke 14: 25-26 "Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple."

Matthew 10: 34-36 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’"

Ephesians 6:5, "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."

Corinthians 11:3, "But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God."

Hebrews 10 26-35, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Acts 5 1-11, "Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events."

This does not sound like love and definitely not unconditional love. It sounds like an abusive relationship.... and using ideas of love along with conditions and fear is exactly how people control and manipulate others in relationships to get what they want from them.

 

[Woodsie]

Luke 14: 25-26 "Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple."

Matthew 10: 34-36 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’"

Ephesians 6:5, "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."

Corinthians 11:3, "But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God."

Hebrews 10 26-35, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Acts 5 1-11, "Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events."

This does not sound like love and definitely not unconditional love. It sounds like an abusive relationship.... and using ideas of love along with conditions and fear is exactly how people control and manipulate others in relationships to get what they want from them.

If you wrote that codswallop today you would be thrown in a cell with Charlie Manson and Geoffrey Dahmer .... stamped never to be released ...

 

[MuzztheEagle]

If you wrote that codswallop today you would be thrown in a cell with Charlie Manson and Geoffrey Dahmer .... stamped never to be released ...

There is plenty in the old testament that shows that the first Christians were involved in what we would consider to be an apocalyptic cult. They were instructed to cut all ties with anyone outside the following, give up everything they owned to the church and they all believed that they were living in the end times. It's a great way of manipulating people and it has been used for millennia to sucker people into these cults. It's no different than what Scientology, Jehovah's Witness or the more obscure (and openly violent) cults do. And if you were to criticise their practices then most Christians would agree on what it is - yet they are unable to see it within their own.
It's like someone in an abuse relationship saying that; "he's not like that" or "you just don't understand what he's really like"

 

[Woodsie]

There is plenty in the old testament that shows that the first Christians were involved in what we would consider to be an apocalyptic cult. They were instructed to cut all ties with anyone outside the following, give up everything they owned to the church and they all believed that they were living in the end times. It's a great way of manipulating people and it has been used for millennia to sucker people into these cults. It's no different than what Scientology, Jehovah's Witness or the more obscure (and openly violent) cults do. And if you were to criticise their practices then most Christians would agree on what it is - yet they are unable to see it within their own.
It's like someone in an abuse relationship saying that; "he's not like that" or "you just don't understand what he's really like"

I have little difficulty accepting the existence of manipulative cults ... the human condition is very broad and has very dangerous extremities ...

What I do have great diffuculty in understanding is that anybody could read that maniacal trash ... and conclude it was divinely inspired ...

 

[MuzztheEagle]

I have little difficulty accepting the existence of manipulative cults ... the human condition is very broad and has very dangerous extremities ...

What I do have great diffuculty in understanding is that anybody could read that maniacal trash ... and conclude it was divinely inspired ...

I think it's a system that forms somewhat organically out of our own need for meaning, purpose and the need to fill or serve a higher purpose in life or from another view, our need to see ourselves as superior and important to others and also a need to be validated by the communities we live in and admire.
I would very much doubt that anyone becomes a religious person by merely reading scripture. And I would be willing to bet that @Kevinward777 or any other religious person here did not arrive at their current belief this way.
Wanting to be;

• part of a community (especially when feeling isolated)
• validated by part of society (when you view yourself as an outcast)
• accomplish something greater (when you are concerned that you have wasted a life)

are all big reasons why someone would be attracted to someone selling a better (after)life.
Then when you get what you were REALLY looking for there is fear of losing it if your faith starts to waver. Many organisations actively push this idea by threatening to remove all contact from friends and family to prevent people from leaving.

 

[Kevinward777]

But you have advocated that I and others seek out those with more/correct knowledge of the scriptures. Isn't that a dangerous idea in a world filled with so many false preachers? What about your own journey, did you have any guidance or did you find the truth on your own?

As for the false teachers. If they do believe that Jesus was who think he is then will they be saved/rewarded? Even if they hoarded money from others, tore families apart, covered up sex abuse etc.
I'm curious who you think will make the cut? Mormons, JoHo's, Andrea Yates?

I found faith alone in a house without a bible in sight. Nevertheless, I have been really fortunate to have met some truly amazing men and women who grounded me on my journey.

If a False teacher truly trusted Jesus he wouldn’t be using his name in order to swindle money from people with the promise of bogus healings, riches and the like. Any minister/preacher/priest etc who engages in or covers up sexual abuse is most certainly not a Christian. In the same way that a teacher or policeman who do such despicable acts is not really a policeman or teacher. They are just predators, and they can be found everywhere.

If a person gets to a point where they have a genuine sorrow in their heart because of how they have lived and then turn from their sins by accepting Jesus’ sacrifice, you would see their behaviour change over time. It’s called edification, one of those amazing unexplainable things which occurs when an individual repents and gives their life to Jesus.

However, one must get to a place of knowing that they require salvation, but like you have stated on here before mate, you don’t think you’re in need of saving... you’re a good person. So, crack on, be happy and continue enjoying your life.

As for who will make the cut, it’s not up to me to decide that, I’ve stated this clearly to you in the past, what don’t you understand about my answer? Asking the same thing ten times won’t change my response.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

I found faith alone in a house without a bible in sight. Nevertheless, I have been really fortunate to have met some truly amazing men and women who grounded me on my journey.

I'll argue that this would be impossible. There would be know way to reach knowledge of the life and teachings of Jesus without prior knowledge. If you can indeed prove that this is undeniably what happened then I accept you and JC as my savior. But more likely is that you were exposed to teachings at some point in your life and decided to reach out to them. I do not presume to know who you are here...but I do think you are leaving details out of your story....so please correct me if I'm wrong.

If a False teacher truly trusted Jesus he wouldn’t be using his name in order to swindle money from people with the promise of bogus healings, riches and the like. Any minister/preacher/priest etc who engages in or covers up sexual abuse is most certainly not a Christian. In the same way that a teacher or policeman who do such despicable acts is not really a policeman or teacher. They are just predators, and they can be found everywhere.

But how can someone tell who these people are telling the truth and those who are genuine? Surely there is a process you would recommend in how to identify these false preachers.
It has been made clear to me by Christians that it is easy to warp the lord's word out of context and that God himself is willing to deceive others. If a preacher says that THEY know that THEIR interpretation is the TRUE one (and they all do) then how do we know that they are genuine? You said yourself that your beliefs were grounded by others...but how did you know that they were genuine? What would have happened if you had met the WRONG people?

If a person gets to a point where they have a genuine sorrow in their heart because of how they have lived and then turn from their sins by accepting Jesus’ sacrifice, you would see their behaviour change over time. It’s called edification, one of those amazing unexplainable things which occurs when an individual repents and gives their life to Jesus.

However, one must get to a place of knowing that they require salvation, but like you have stated on here before mate, you don’t think you’re in need of saving... you’re a good person. So, crack on, be happy and continue enjoying your life.

As for who will make the cut, it’s not up to me to decide that, I’ve stated this clearly to you in the past, what don’t you understand about my answer? Asking the same thing ten times won’t change my response.

Yet you were willing to pass judgement in an earlier statement and claim that some individuals are: most certainly not a Christian. If you are aspiring to some grand goal shouldn't you know where the goalposts are?

 

[Kevinward777]

Luke 14: 25-26 "Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple."

Matthew 10: 34-36 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’"

Ephesians 6:5, "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."

Corinthians 11:3, "But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God."

Hebrews 10 26-35, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Acts 5 1-11, "Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events."

This does not sound like love and definitely not unconditional love. It sounds like an abusive relationship.... and using ideas of love along with conditions and fear is exactly how people control and manipulate others in relationships to get what they want from them.

Okay, I will engage the first couple of scriptures above to show how interpretation from the Greek/Hebrew to English is sometimes misconstrued to mean something it does not.
So Jesus calls for a follower who will hate his mother and father, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life. The point of the list is that no other relationship is first for a disciple. "Hate" is used figuratively and suggests a priority of relationship. Jesus is first. To follow Jesus means to follow Jesus, not anyone or anything else. A disciple is a learner, and the primary teacher in life is Jesus. This total loyalty is crucial, given the rejection and persecution that lie ahead. If his followers care more about family than about Jesus, when families are divided under pressure of persecution, they will choose against Jesus. This is what lies behind Jesus' remarks. Discipleship is not possible if Jesus is not the teacher.

This is why bearing the cross and coming after Jesus is the issue of discipleship. Learning from Jesus means following him, experiencing the rejection he experienced and so bearing the cross he bore. We cannot "learn Jesus" without being prepared to walk this path. Discipleship is basically allegiance. To follow Jesus is to rely on him

Matthew 10:34
Think not ye that I am come to send peace on earth
The Jews had a notion of great outward peace and prosperity in the days of the Messiah; which was grounded on several prophecies of the Old Testament, not rightly understood by them; and the disciples of Christ had imbibed the same notion: wherefore our Lord thought fit to let them know the contrary; and that they must not expect outward ease and quiet, and worldly tranquillity would attend their ministry; for though he came to be a peace maker between God and sinners, by the blood of his cross; and was both the author and donor of spiritual peace to his people; and the Gospel he brought with him, and sent them to preach, was the Gospel of peace; which, accompanied with his power, would produce peace in the consciences of men, and be the means of cultivating and maintaining peace among the saints; yet "peace on earth" in a temporal sense, whether in the world in general, or in Judea in particular, must not be expected as the consequence of his coming; so far from it, that he subjoins,

I came, not to send peace, but a sword.
By the "sword" may be meant the Gospel, which is the means of dividing and separating the people of Christ from the men of the world, and from their principles and practices, and one relation from another; as also of divisions, discords, and persecutions arising from it: not that it was the intention and design of Christ, in coming into the world, to foment and encourage such things; but this, through the malice and wickedness of men, was eventually the effect and consequence of his coming; see ( Luke 12:51 ) where, instead of a "sword", it is "division"; because the sword divides asunder, as does the sword of the Spirit, the word of God.

Hope that helps!

 

[MuzztheEagle]

Okay, I will engage the first couple of scriptures above to show how interpretation from the Greek/Hebrew to English is sometimes misconstrued to mean something it does not.
So Jesus calls for a follower who will hate his mother and father, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life. The point of the list is that no other relationship is first for a disciple. "Hate" is used figuratively and suggests a priority of relationship. Jesus is first. To follow Jesus means to follow Jesus, not anyone or anything else. A disciple is a learner, and the primary teacher in life is Jesus. This total loyalty is crucial, given the rejection and persecution that lie ahead. If his followers care more about family than about Jesus, when families are divided under pressure of persecution, they will choose against Jesus. This is what lies behind Jesus' remarks. Discipleship is not possible if Jesus is not the teacher.

This is why bearing the cross and coming after Jesus is the issue of discipleship. Learning from Jesus means following him, experiencing the rejection he experienced and so bearing the cross he bore. We cannot "learn Jesus" without being prepared to walk this path. Discipleship is basically allegiance. To follow Jesus is to rely on him

Matthew 10:34
Think not ye that I am come to send peace on earth
The Jews had a notion of great outward peace and prosperity in the days of the Messiah; which was grounded on several prophecies of the Old Testament, not rightly understood by them; and the disciples of Christ had imbibed the same notion: wherefore our Lord thought fit to let them know the contrary; and that they must not expect outward ease and quiet, and worldly tranquillity would attend their ministry; for though he came to be a peace maker between God and sinners, by the blood of his cross; and was both the author and donor of spiritual peace to his people; and the Gospel he brought with him, and sent them to preach, was the Gospel of peace; which, accompanied with his power, would produce peace in the consciences of men, and be the means of cultivating and maintaining peace among the saints; yet "peace on earth" in a temporal sense, whether in the world in general, or in Judea in particular, must not be expected as the consequence of his coming; so far from it, that he subjoins,

I came, not to send peace, but a sword.
By the "sword" may be meant the Gospel, which is the means of dividing and separating the people of Christ from the men of the world, and from their principles and practices, and one relation from another; as also of divisions, discords, and persecutions arising from it: not that it was the intention and design of Christ, in coming into the world, to foment and encourage such things; but this, through the malice and wickedness of men, was eventually the effect and consequence of his coming; see ( Luke 12:51 ) where, instead of a "sword", it is "division"; because the sword divides asunder, as does the sword of the Spirit, the word of God.

Hope that helps!

Damn.....I've been deceived again!!!!
Please.....tell me how I can know the TRUE word of God?
By accepting that it's all good? Wouldn't that leave me susceptible to the con men and false preachers that you speak of?
If God and Jesus had a clear message for us then why not make it clear. If they did not want to give everyone a clear message(and it's clear that they did not) then why?

 

[Kevinward777]

I'll argue that this would be impossible. There would be know way to reach knowledge of the life and teachings of Jesus without prior knowledge. If you can indeed prove that this is undeniably what happened then I accept you and JC as my savior. But more likely is that you were exposed to teachings at some point in your life and decided to reach out to them. I do not presume to know who you are here...but I do think you are leaving details out of your story....so please correct me if I'm wrong.



But how can someone tell who these people are telling the truth and those who are genuine? Surely there is a process you would recommend in how to identify these false preachers.
It has been made clear to me by Christians that it is easy to warp the lord's word out of context and that God himself is willing to deceive others. If a preacher says that THEY know that THEIR interpretation is the TRUE one (and they all do) then how do we know that they are genuine? You said yourself that your beliefs were grounded by others...but how did you know that they were genuine? What would have happened if you had met the WRONG people?


Yet you were willing to pass judgement in an earlier statement and claim that some individuals are: most certainly not a Christian. If you are aspiring to some grand goal shouldn't you know where the goalposts are?

Damn.....I've been deceived again!!!!
Please.....tell me how I can know the TRUE word of God?
By accepting that it's all good? Wouldn't that leave me susceptible to the con men and false preachers that you speak of?
If God and Jesus had a clear message for us then why not make it clear. If they did not want to give everyone a clear message(and it's clear that they did not) then why?

Do you need salvation @MuzztheEagle? Are you a wicked man? Or are you a good person?