omnipotent beings discussion

Hey @MuzztheEagle hope you’re having a good day. Sometimes in life timing is a peculiar thing. A great friend of mine called in on his way out to Bathurst this morning. He and his wife are part of the academic crowd, my mate has his doctorate in both Biology and Philosophy, but funnily enough is a staunch believer in a creator God.

We got to talking on the subject of evolution and this thread filtered into our conversation. I showed him some of the scientific inspired posts on here which support the theory of evolution and deny a creator God. He directed me to the following for your perusal.

EVOLUTION IS BIOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE!
Charles Darwin was daydreaming when he wrote that he could visualize "in some warm little pond," with all sorts of salts and electricity, the spontaneous generation of the first living cell.1Darwin's dream of the magical powers of salts and electricity may have come from his grandfather. Mary Shelley wrote of him in 1831 in her introduction to Frankenstein. "They talked of the experiments of Dr. Darwin . . . who preserved a piece of vermicelli in a glass case, till by some extraordinary means it began to move with voluntary motion." She goes on to speculate that galvanism (electricity) was the extraordinary means.2All theories need testing, so I bought some vermicelli pasta, kept it in salt water in a test tube for a month, and never saw any motion, voluntary or otherwise. I also used a tesla coil to conduct "galvanism" through it to a fluorescent bulb. The bulb lit and the vermicelli eventually began to cook, but never came to life.

"Darwin's bulldog," Thomas Huxley, had a vision of himself on the early earth as "a witness of the evolution of living protoplasm from non-living matter."3 In Huxley's day, the cell was blissfully considered simply a blob of protoplasm. Huxley also may have read Mary Shelley's subtitle to Frankenstein, "The Modern Prometheus."2Prometheus was the Greek mythical Titan, who formed a man of clay, then animated it. This myth may be the earliest reference to abiogenesis, the animation of inorganic materials. In order not to leave that possibility untried, I fashioned a clay man and directed the tesla-coil spark over it to light the bulb. The clay man was not animated.

Evolutionists currently invoke the "primeval soup" to expand the "warm little pond" into a larger venue, the oceans. They aim to spontaneously generate the first cell so they must thicken the salt water with (take a breath) polysaccharides, lipids, amino acids, alpha helixes, polypeptide chains, assembled quaternary protein subunits, and nucleotides, all poised to self-combine into functional cellular structures, energy systems, long-chain proteins and nucleic acids.4Then during an electrical storm, just the right mix of DNA, mRNA, ribosomes, cell membranes and enzymes are envisioned in the right place at the right time and the first cell is thunderbolted together and springs to life.5 That marvelous first cell, the story goes, filled the oceans with progeny competing in incredible polysaccharide, lipid, amino acid, nucleotide, and cannibalistic feasts. The predators thereby thinned the soup to the watery oceans we have today while the prey escaped by mystically transmuting themselves into the current complex animals and plants, or perhaps vice versa because no one was there to record it. We are assured by the disciples of Darwin and Huxley that the "once upon a pond" story to obtain a blob of protoplasm is still sufficient for the spontaneous generation of the cell as we know it today. All demur when asked for evidence. All balk when asked to reverse-engineer a cell in the laboratory in spite of the fact that laboratories rival nature and reverse engineering is orders of magnitude easier than engineering an original design. One wonders why they balk if cell stuff is so easily self-generated and carbon molecules seem to have such an innate tendency to self-combine.

To test simply the alleged self-combining tendency of carbon, I placed one microliter of India (lampblack) ink in 27 ml. of distilled water. The ink streaked for the bottom of the test tube where it formed a dark haze which completely diffused to an even shade of gray in 14 hours. The carbon stayed diffused, not aggregated as when dropped on paper. At this simple level, there is no evidence that the "primeval soup" is anything but fanciful imagination.

In science, the burden of evidence is on the proposer of the theory. So although the evolutionists have the burden of providing evidence for their fanciful tales, they take no responsibility for a detailed account or for any evidence demonstrating feasibility. Contrarily, they go so far as to imply that anyone holding them to the normal requirements of science is feebleminded, deranged, or evil. For example, Professor Richard Dawkins has been quoted as saying, "It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid, or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that)."6 Instead of taking proper responsibility for the burden of evidence, the evolutionist propagandizes by the intimidation of name calling.

To set a better example, let us take up the evolutionist's burden of evidence to see where it leads. Our first observation is that apparently all functions in a living organism are based largely upon the structures of its proteins. The trail of the first cell therefore leads us to the microbiological geometry of amino acids and a search for the probability of creating a protein by mindless chance as specified by evolution. Hubert Yockey published a monograph on the microbiology, information theory, and mathematics necessary to accomplish that feat. Accordingly, the probability of evolving one molecule of iso-1-cytochrome c, a small protein common in plants and animals, is an astounding one chance in 2.3 times ten billion vigintillion. The magnitude of this impossibility may be appreciated by realizing that ten billion vigintillion is one followed by 75 zeros. Or to put it in evolutionary terms, if a random mutation is provided every second from the alleged birth of the universe, then to date that protein molecule would be only 43% of the way to completion. Yockey concluded, "The origin of life by chance in a primeval soup is impossible in probability in the same way that a perpetual motion machine is impossible in probability."7

Richard Dawkins implicitly agreed with Yockey by stating, "Suppose we want to suggest, for instance, that life began when both DNA and its protein-based replication machinery spontaneously chanced to come into existence. We can allow ourselves the luxury of such an extravagant theory, provided that the odds against this coincidence occurring on a planet do not exceed 100 billion billion to one."8The 100 billion billion is 1020. So Dawkins' own criterion for impossible in probability, one chance in more than 1020, has been exceeded by 50 orders of magnitude for only one molecule of one small protein. Now that Professor Dawkins has joined the ranks of non-believers in evolution, politesse forbids inquiring whether he considers himself "ignorant, stupid, insane, or wicked."

Let us proceed to criteria more stringent. For example, Borel stated that phenomena with very small probabilities do not occur. He settled arbitrarily on the probability of one chance in 1050 as that small probability. Again according to this more stringent criterion, we see that evolving one molecule of one protein would not occur by a wide margin, this time 25 orders of magnitude.9

Let us go further. According to Dembski, Borel did not adequately distinguish those highly improbable events properly attributed to chance from those properly attributed to something else and Borel did not clarify what concrete numerical values correspond to small probabilities. So Dembski repaired those deficiencies and formulated a criterion so stringent that it jolts the mind. He estimated 1080elementary particles in the universe and asked how many times per second an event could occur. He found 1045. He then calculated the number of seconds from the beginning of the universe to the present and for good measure multiplied by one billion for 1025 seconds in all. He thereby obtained 1080 x 1045 x 1025 = 10150 for his Law of Small Probability.9

I have not been able to find a criterion more stringent than Dembski's one chance in 10150. Anything as rare as that probability had absolutely no possibility of happening by chance at any time by any conceivable specifying agent by any conceivable process throughout all of cosmic history. And if the specified event is not a regularity, as the origin of life is not, and if it is not chance, as Dembski's criterion and Yockey's probability may prove it is not, then it must have happened by design, the only remaining possibility.

Now to return to the probability of evolving one molecule of one protein as one chance in 1075, we see that it does not satisfy Dembski's criterion of one chance in 10150. The simultaneous availability of two molecules of one protein may satisfy the criterion, but they would be far from the necessary complement to create a living cell. For a minimal cell, 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations would be needed.5,10 If these raw materials could be evolved at the same time, and if they were not more complex on average to evolve than the iso-1-cytochrome c molecule, and if these proteins were stacked at the cell's construction site, then we may make a gross underestimation of what the chances would be to evolve that first cell. That probability is one chance in more than 104,478,296, a number that numbs the mind because it has 4,478,296 zeros. If we consider one chance in 10150 as the standard for impossible, then the evolution of the first cell is more than 104,478,146 times more impossible in probability than that standard.

Reproduction may be called a regularity because billions of people have witnessed billions of new individuals arising that way, and in no other way, for thousands of years. The origin of life was a unique event and certainly not a regularity. Therefore, according to mathematical logicians, the only possibilities left are that life either was generated by chance or by deliberate design. The standard for impossible events eliminated evolution so the only remaining possibility is that life was designed into existence. The probability of the correctness of this conclusion is the inverse of the probability that eliminated evolution, that is, 104,478,296chances to one.

Although the certainty of design has been demonstrated beyond doubt, science cannot identify the designer. Given a designer with the intelligence to construct a cell and all life forms, it is not logical that he would construct only one cell and leave the rest to chance. The only logical possibility is that the designer would design and build the entire structure, the entire biosphere, to specified perfection. That seems to be as far as science can go.

Life was designed. It did not evolve. The certainty of these conclusions is 104,478,296 (1 followed by 4,478,296 zeros) to one. This evidence suggests a Designer who designed and built the entire biosphere and, for it to function, the entire universe. Primary and secondary sources from history properly provide additional information on the Designer because the biological sciences are not equal to that task.
Yeah, we've already been through this one!
Plenty to dismiss here:
  • Using Darwin's original ideas as the current model
  • Strawmanning potential scientific tests to create life with simplistic and unrealistic alternatives. Additionally scientists have been able to create many of the initial building blocks already and as scientific fields go they haven't been working on this for long. (I previously posted a link for this, which I assume you dismissed without reading).
  • Even if abiogenesis cannot be recreated or explained 100% this does not show that evolution is impossible. We have plenty of evidence to show that it can and does happen. Again I've posted numerous evidence for this. The best you could hope for here is a claim that abiogenisis can't happen (claim.....not prove). It doesn't provide any evidence that young earth creationism is any less ridiculous.
  • Boral's law is not actually a law and his original statement has been taken completely out of context. The concept was put forward to rationalize physical observations not state that these events will never occur. The fact that an event has a probability is evidence that it CAN occur, no matter how small.
  • The continued improbability is then just a Texas sharpshooter fallacy. One can easily list a series of conditions to be met to show the improbability of an event that has already happened.
E.g In order for you to exist, your parents had to have sex exactly at a given time. One particular sperm cell had to fertilize one particular egg. Taking this back only a few generations we quickly reach the limit of Borel's "law". You, Sir, are therefore impossible.

Is your friend also a young earth creationist?
 
What self service or gain does anyone garner from sharing it? Your post already affirms the part where it states that insults and ridicule are the first port of call to those who aren’t “smart” enough to understand evolution.

and if that statement you qouted didn't give you a hint that it wasn't a scientific paper ... but just propaganda .... good grief ..
 
and if that statement you qouted didn't give you a hint that it wasn't a scientific paper ... but just propaganda .... good grief ..
Derp derp... but if only we were intelligent enough to understand. Oh well, I will continue on believing that In the beginning God created, and leave the ape ancestry revelations to all you smarter folk.
 
Yeah, we've already been through this one!
Plenty to dismiss here:
  • Using Darwin's original ideas as the current model
  • Strawmanning potential scientific tests to create life with simplistic and unrealistic alternatives. Additionally scientists have been able to create many of the initial building blocks already and as scientific fields go they haven't been working on this for long. (I previously posted a link for this, which I assume you dismissed without reading).
  • Even if abiogenesis cannot be recreated or explained 100% this does not show that evolution is impossible. We have plenty of evidence to show that it can and does happen. Again I've posted numerous evidence for this. The best you could hope for here is a claim that abiogenisis can't happen (claim.....not prove). It doesn't provide any evidence that young earth creationism is any less ridiculous.
  • Boral's law is not actually a law and his original statement has been taken completely out of context. The concept was put forward to rationalize physical observations not state that these events will never occur. The fact that an event has a probability is evidence that it CAN occur, no matter how small.
  • The continued improbability is then just a Texas sharpshooter fallacy. One can easily list a series of conditions to be met to show the improbability of an event that has already happened.
E.g In order for you to exist, your parents had to have sex exactly at a given time. One particular sperm cell had to fertilize one particular egg. Taking this back only a few generations we quickly reach the limit of Borel's "law". You, Sir, are therefore impossible.

Is your friend also a young earth creationist?
Just curious @MuzztheEagle, what is your opinion on Haeckel’s embryonic comparison chart?

1587536716227.jpeg
 
I've never heard of it. But a quick google search shows that Haeklel died 100 years ago. So I'm not sure, whatever it is, if it really has any relevance today.
You never heard of it lol... a logical, evidence craving science man... and you’ve never heard of it (WOW!) When I was in high school during the 80’s they were still ramming this fraudulent chart down our throats as a key piece of evidence that we all evolved from a common ancestor. Now it’s in the DNA apparently... just ask Woodsie About how you’re related to a piece of fruit. Monkeys and bananas who would have thunk? Madness!
 
An interesting thought ... why do we assume/think that life was only created once .... for all we know life has been created daily ... and continue to be created daily ... but the fragility of the single cell new life .. and the hostility of the environment makes survival impropable ....

If all new life was created by the same process ... would it all carry the same DNA .... life may well be the result of 1000's of creation events ...
 
An interesting thought ... why do we assume/think that life was only created once .... for all we know life has been created daily ... and continue to be created daily ... but the fragility of the single cell new life .. and the hostility of the environment makes survival impropable ....

If all new life was created by the same process ... would it all carry the same DNA .... life may well be the result of 1000's of creation events ...
Reminds me of this:
*Warning I have a harder time sleeping after watching this 🙂
 
You never heard of it lol... a logical, evidence craving science man... and you’ve never heard of it (WOW!) When I was in high school during the 80’s they were still ramming this fraudulent chart down our throats as a key piece of evidence that we all evolved from a common ancestor. Now it’s in the DNA apparently... just ask Woodsie About how you’re related to a piece of fruit. Monkeys and bananas who would have thunk? Madness!
I'm still not really sure what your point is. You may have gone to a crap school? We should spend more money on education? Publishers aren't always the best about vetting sources? People, including scientists are known to lie, especially for personal gain? I think I can agree with these.
How exactly did they ram it down you throat? Were the drawingings included in a corner of the textbook for historical reference or were you forced to memorize and recreate this drawings as though they were gospel?
The thing is, I don't really care if you believe in evolution or not, though if I found out you were a science teach it would concern me. I think it's a great thing to be skeptical. But, skepticism is only useful if you apply it fairly and equally to different ideas. Do apply use the same level of skepticism and rules to test your ironclad beliefs in a 6000 year old earth, the flood and the reliability of the gospels?
 
Plenty of supposed faith healers with hundreds of witnesses claiming similar feats. I've met plenty who believe in the Loch Ness monster and Big Foot.
If I was a Roman/Jewish leader back in the day and heard about some guy who could miraculously cure illness I would probably ask him to be my GP (even if that meant holding him against his will) rather than crucifying him.
Also:
View attachment 11447
If god wanted to heal people through his Son, why didn't he have him inform them about bacteria and viruses and the benefits of good sanitation?
Just found this post @MuzztheEagle. I would be interested to read your thoughts.
 
Just found this post @MuzztheEagle. I would be interested to read your thoughts.

Only got to number 2 ....


It says that Isaiah knew that The Earth is round and that man did not discover that until the 15th Century .... I am afraid that is just plain codswallop again Kevvy ..


Isaiah 40:22 New International Version (NIV)

22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Firstly ... This statement does nothing to indicate that one is knowingly sitting above a sphere ... a 3rd class understanding of geometry should have prepared you for the fact that a flat disc Earth wuold also appear circular from above .... Isaiah ainn't sayin anything ...

Secondly ... Old mate Eratosthenes not only knew the Earth was a sphere he actually measured the circumference of the Earth to within an accuracy of about 20 miles .... not bad going and did it in approx 194BC ... that is 200 years before the birth of Christ and about 400 years before Isaiah .... Most men of learning knew the earth was round for a long time before the 15th century ..

I'll let Muzz have a go at the others ...
 
Only got to number 2 ....


It says that Isaiah knew that The Earth is round and that man did not discover that until the 15th Century .... I am afraid that is just plain codswallop again Kevvy ..




Isaiah 40:22 New International Version (NIV)

22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,

and its people are like grasshoppers.

He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,

and spreads them out like a tent to live in.


Firstly ... This statement does nothing to indicate that one is knowingly sitting above a sphere ... a 3rd class understanding of geometry should have prepared you for the fact that a flat disc Earth wuold also appear circular from above .... Isaiah ainn't sayin anything ...

Secondly ... Old mate Eratosthenes not only knew the Earth was a sphere he actually measured the circumference of the Earth to within an accuracy of about 20 miles .... not bad going and did it in approx 194BC ... that is 200 years before the birth of Christ and about 400 years before Isaiah .... Most men of learning knew the earth was round for a long time before the 15th century ..

I'll let Muzz have a go at the others ...
Don't be lazy. Also the additional claim is that there is a translation error. Which I guess it's possible but then there are a much larger number of references to both the ends of and the four corners of the earth.
 

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