omnipotent beings discussion

[MuzztheEagle]

Do you need salvation @MuzztheEagle? Are you a wicked man? Or are you a good person?

So I don't understand because I'm not in need of saving? Well, this was exactly the point I was making with Woodsie a few posts back. Those who need something more or to change within their lives will seek out exactly that and they will be sold exactly that by those wanting to convert others into their way of thinking.
Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing and can bring a great improvement to individual lives. But it can come at a cost and with great risk. So, how to you separate those who are genuine from those who are themselves misguided ?

 

[Kevinward777]

So I don't understand because I'm not in need of saving? Well, this was exactly the point I was making with Woodsie a few posts back. Those who need something more or to change within their lives will seek out exactly that and they will be sold exactly that by those wanting to convert others into their way of thinking.
Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing and can bring a great improvement to individual lives. But it can come at a cost and with great risk. So, how to you separate those who are genuine from those who are themselves misguided ?

Matthew 13:14-15 New Living Translation (NLT)
14 This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah that says,

‘When you hear what I say,
you will not understand.
When you see what I do,
you will not comprehend.
15 For the hearts of these people are hardened,
and their ears cannot hear,
and they have closed their eyes—
so their eyes cannot see,
and their ears cannot hear,
and their hearts cannot understand,
and they cannot turn to me
and let me heal them.’[a]

Maybe we just see and hear differently @MuzztheEagle. I wish you well mate... I’m off to the gym, hope you have a great day.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

Matthew 13:14-15 New Living Translation (NLT)
14 This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah that says,

‘When you hear what I say,
you will not understand.
When you see what I do,
you will not comprehend.
15 For the hearts of these people are hardened,
and their ears cannot hear,
and they have closed their eyes—
so their eyes cannot see,
and their ears cannot hear,
and their hearts cannot understand,
and they cannot turn to me
and let me heal them.’[a]

Maybe we just see and hear differently @MuzztheEagle. I wish you well mate... I’m off to the gym, hope you have a great day.

Let's expand on that some more:
10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
......
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

This is exactly what cult leaders say:
They do not understand as they are not as blessed/intelligent/worthy as you or I. You are truly blessed as you know the truth and all others are deceived or ignorant.
It lifts your self worth to be greater than those who do not understand and it's a great tool for convincing people something. Its also great for keeping people in line:
"My friends / family don't think what I believe is right. I tried to explain to them, but they said it didn't make any sense. What should I do?" WELL, THEY DON"T BELIEVE OR UNDERSTAND BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH. BUT BE THANKFUL, FOR YOU AND I HAVE AND WE ARE TRULY BLESSED!!!! "
What's more to give up this knowledge is to return to the fold of the ignorant and away from your "chosen" status. (It's also incredibly arrogant to think that you are somehow chosen and able to understand what others cannot)

So let's add the two together: Only those seeking salvation will be saved and only those saved will understand what it means. It is classic cult behavior.

• Are you looking for answers or a better life? Well right this way, I have all that you need!
• Yes it's complicated and hard to believe but that's because it's only for the chosen ones. How blessed you are to be chosen!
• Others may challenge you, but don't fear and don't pay attention to their arguments. They are only there to test you and will never be able to understand. They have not been chosen as you or I have.

It is a very dangerous game to play. So I will ask again; If you are going to advocate that people seek out such salvation, how do they avoid those who may deceive them and how do you know that you yourself haven't been deceived? In your search for answers could you have been led to an organizations such as Jehova or Mormons or even something crazier? How would you feel knowing what you believe now if that had happened? Or if your convinced it wouldn't have then why? You said that you were grounded by others - what if those others had been wrong?

If someone from another faith presented you with the same argument (and threatened to use this as justification to do something you disagreed with) what would you think of it? How would you respond?

 

[Woodsie]

This could become a new sport ...

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 New International Version (NIV)

​

11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

We can also look at the same story in Mark 4:
9 Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”
10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,
“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’[a]”

And similar in Thessalonians 2
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Yep.....looks like it's my fault.....or is it God's for deceiving me?

Yeah, no. I think it's just a way of having people fall in line, never question their thinking or beliefs and ignore any external voice of reason.

 

[Woodsie]

The Christian God marks a very hard scorecard ..

​

 

[MuzztheEagle]

6 Warning Signs of a Religious Cult

The following six warning signs indicate that a religious or spiritual group might in fact be a cult.

www.learnreligions.com

Let's put JC as the leader of a religion. Would that constitute a cult?
✓ The Leader is Infallible
✓ Deceptive Recruitment Tactics
✓ Exclusivity in Faith
✓ Intimidation, Fear, and Isolation
✓ Illegal Activities
✓ Religious Dogma
Take away anything miraculous (which cannot be proven) and it's pretty clear that Jesus was just another cult leader.

 

[Kevinward777]

Dear @MuzztheEagle and brother @Woodsie please allow me to attempt a break down of some of that hate inspired mockery for you.

Eye for an Eye" originates from the Code of Hammurabi and is found in the Old Testament books of Exodus and Leviticus. It is also referenced in the Sermon on the Mount by Jesus, found in the New Testament. Its meaning in the Bible was simply, the punishment or sentencing should equally match the crime.

From scripture, Exodus 21:23-25 states, "But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." Leviticus 24:19-21echoes this assertion, "Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury."

For both passages, the phrase is used in the circumstance of a court case before a civil authority such as a judge. “An eye for an eye” was thus intended to be a guiding ethic for legislators and judges; it was not meant to advocate personal vengeance.

Furthermore, Jesus condemns the practice of personal retaliation in the Sermon on the Mount saying, “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not
turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you” (Matthew 5:38-42).
Jesus is not revoking the Old Testament decree of "Eye for an eye" (Matthew 5:17). Instead, He is delegating the responsibility of the civil authority (to penalize criminals rightfully) from the responsibility we all have in a personal context to love our neighbors and enemies.
The significance of this principle is the sheer longevity of its relevance. Our modern court systems still abide by this guiding precept when determining a judicial penalty. "Eye for an eye," has literally influenced the appropriate penalty decisions of millions of legal cases over thousands of years, and rightfully so.

What may be surprising about this judicial precept, although many would now consider it common sense, (something of which both @Woodsie and @MuzztheEagle claim they are advocates for) despite the fact that not all countries use it. Even today and there are places in the world where the punishment does not correspond reasonably to the crime. "Eye for an eye" is a principle that is worth appreciating and understanding for its historic significance, arising from the wisdom of God.
I hope this is helpful for you in some way!

 

[MuzztheEagle]

Dear @MuzztheEagle and brother @Woodsie please allow me to attempt a break down of some of that hate inspired mockery for you.

Eye for an Eye" originates from the Code of Hammurabi and is found in the Old Testament books of Exodus and Leviticus. It is also referenced in the Sermon on the Mount by Jesus, found in the New Testament. Its meaning in the Bible was simply, the punishment or sentencing should equally match the crime.

From scripture, Exodus 21:23-25 states, "But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." Leviticus 24:19-21echoes this assertion, "Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury."

For both passages, the phrase is used in the circumstance of a court case before a civil authority such as a judge. “An eye for an eye” was thus intended to be a guiding ethic for legislators and judges; it was not meant to advocate personal vengeance.

Furthermore, Jesus condemns the practice of personal retaliation in the Sermon on the Mount saying, “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not
turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you” (Matthew 5:38-42).
Jesus is not revoking the Old Testament decree of "Eye for an eye" (Matthew 5:17). Instead, He is delegating the responsibility of the civil authority (to penalize criminals rightfully) from the responsibility we all have in a personal context to love our neighbors and enemies.
The significance of this principle is the sheer longevity of its relevance. Our modern court systems still abide by this guiding precept when determining a judicial penalty. "Eye for an eye," has literally influenced the appropriate penalty decisions of millions of legal cases over thousands of years, and rightfully so.

What may be surprising about this judicial precept, although many would now consider it common sense, (something of which both @Woodsie and @MuzztheEagle claim they are advocates for) despite the fact that not all countries use it. Even today and there are places in the world where the punishment does not correspond reasonably to the crime. For examples of this, check out an article from Ranker about Real, Horrifying Punishments in Other Countries. "Eye for an eye" is a principle that is worth appreciating and understanding for its historic significance, arising from the wisdom of God.
I hope this is helpful for you in some way!

WTF has this got to do with some poor guy losing his dick and then getting denied entry to heaven because of it? (Or anything that has been discussed here recently)
Also, I'm fairly certain that I haven't and wouldn't advocate eye for an eye punishment.

 

[Kevinward777]

We can also look at the same story in Mark 4:
9 Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”
10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,
“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’[a]”

And similar in Thessalonians 2
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Yep.....looks like it's my fault.....or is it God's for deceiving me?

Yeah, no. I think it's just a way of having people fall in line, never question their thinking or beliefs and ignore any external voice of reason.

Why do you even care so much? It’s just a fairytale right? Reason, logic and science are your Gods, so serve them and be happy.
Romans 1:19-23 New International Version (NIV)
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
22 So therefore God abandoned them to their hearts desires.

 

[Kevinward777]

WTF has this got to do with some poor guy losing his dick and then getting denied entry to heaven because of it? (Or anything that has been discussed here recently)
Also, I'm fairly certain that I haven't and wouldn't advocate eye for an eye punishment.

WTF has this got to do with some poor guy losing his dick and then getting denied entry to heaven because of it? (Or anything that has been discussed here recently)
Also, I'm fairly certain that I haven't and wouldn't advocate eye for an eye punishment.

I’m an advocate of grace, mercy and forgiveness @MuzztheEagle. I believe in Jesus Christ and God the creator. If this offends you so much, then hit the ignore button and move yourself along.

You post incessantly on this thread and claim to be a live and let live kinda guy. So my advice to you is to do just that man. Because aside from a Damascus type conversion taking place, I just don’t see how that is going to change. And you could hold a gun to my head pal, and I know that what I believe won’t be changing either. We are coming at this from two completely different places unfortunately.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

Why do you even care so much? It’s just a fairytale right? Reason, logic and science are your Gods, so serve them and be happy.

Because you're advocating a dangerous idea; that faith will give people all that they seek. As you have stated; there are many false profits and preaches. Yet you can offer no advice as how to recognise and avoid those who would act as such. You have even stated that God's word is not intended to be easily understood and that he may even device us. It is a recipe for disaster for anyone who listens to the wrong preacher, not just for them but for those that they preach to and act out towards.
Furthermore, I will reiterate, have no gods or blind faith. I think and act on what I can observe, replicate and explain and the majority of science that you seem so determined to discredit does nothing to tell us how to live our lives - unlike your fairy tale which many would argue wants to dictate our very thoughts.

 

[Kevinward777]

 

[MuzztheEagle]

I’m an advocate of grace, mercy and forgiveness @MuzztheEagle. I believe in Jesus Christ and God the creator. If this offends you so much, then hit the ignore button and move yourself along.

You post incessantly on this thread and claim to be a live and let live kinda guy. So my advice to you is to do just that man. Because aside from a Damascus type conversion taking place, I just don’t see how that is going to change. And you could hold a gun to my head pal, and I know that what I believe won’t be changing either. We are coming at this from two completely different places unfortunately.

I am well aware that you have no interest in changing (you have to much at stake to change now) and it is not my intent to get you to change. But I will continue to call out nonsense and bull **** as I do on other areas of this site. If you want to push your beliefs here (or if footballers want to do similar) then I will happily hold them up for what they are. A joke.
If you think I am wrong then please, answer my questions and accusations about your infallible belief....or continue to watch it fade into irrelevance as the youth of today and tomorrow recognise it for what it really is.

 

[Kevinward777]

Because you're advocating a dangerous idea; that faith will give people all that they seek. As you have stated; there are many false profits and preaches. Yet you can offer no advice as how to recognise and avoid those who would act as such. You have even stated that God's word is not intended to be easily understood and that he may even device us. It is a recipe for disaster for anyone who listens to the wrong preacher, not just for them but for those that they preach to and act out towards.
Furthermore, I will reiterate, have no gods or blind faith. I think and act on what I can observe, replicate and and the majority of science that you seem so determined to discredit does nothing to tell us how to live our lives - unlike your fairy tale which many would argue wants to dictate our very thoughts.

Really? The world is ravaged by war, starvation, violence, drugs and greed... and you want to jump up and down about the dangers of someone like me? It’s completely absurd... you should have met me twenty years ago friend, perhaps then your carry on would have carried with it a smidgen of credibility.

You post like every man, woman and child is in mortal peril of being swallowed up by the next bible believing Christian who comes their way. Almost like you’re the king of logic and reason and all the dumb dumb’s can’t make up there own minds on where they sit. God complex maybe?

Statistics show there has been, and continues to be a great falling away of people who believe in Jesus Christ (Hail Satan!) so you’ll need to find some other crusade to embark upon. Shouldn’t be too difficult, considering the amount of homelessness going on in our major cities.

There’s literally billions of people who are right now being oppressed under cruel and unforgiving dictatorships, poverty unlike anything we’ve ever known, and westerners carry on with this kind of trash, labelling it compassion and social justice.

God help us if we ever had to go to war.

 

[Kevinward777]

I am well aware that you have no interest in changing (you have to much at stake to change now) and it is not my intent to get you to change. But I will continue to call out nonsense and bull **** as I do on other areas of this site. If you want to push your beliefs here (or if footballers want to do similar) then I will happily hold them up for what they are. A joke.
If you think I am wrong then please, answer my questions and accusations about your infallible belief....or continue to watch it fade into irrelevance as the youth of today and tomorrow recognise it for what it really is.

Yes I think you are wrong... and I attempt (when I have time) to answer your accusations and give an account of what I believe to be the truth. As for the youth of today... something is coming alright, but their faces are so glued to their screens that most of them won’t see it for what it is when it finally lands. Very sad.

 

[Kevinward777]

All just my opinion of course.

 

[Kevinward777]

An old dinosaur who has been saved by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God who took away the sins of the world.

 

[Kevinward777]

I am well aware that you have no interest in changing (you have to much at stake to change now) and it is not my intent to get you to change. But I will continue to call out nonsense and bull **** as I do on other areas of this site. If you want to push your beliefs here (or if footballers want to do similar) then I will happily hold them up for what they are. A joke.
If you think I am wrong then please, answer my questions and accusations about your infallible belief....or continue to watch it fade into irrelevance as the youth of today and tomorrow recognise it for what it really is.

The hypocrisy in this post is truly remarkable. If I continue to push my beliefs??? LOL. Just scroll back say 10 pages, then count the amount of times you have posted nasty, disrespectful stuff toward those of us who profess faith (when we have CLEARLY stopped responding) because it really is astounding. You’re like a little rabid dog barking the same thing until someone (usually me) comes out to play. Then when we do respond, you quickly slip on the logic man of righteousness cape and begin asking the same stuff all over again. It’s INSANE!

Your post about never underestimating the stupidity of humans, particularly when in groups is a ripper. Anyway, good luck, I will await your next tantrum... but I may hold back for a little longer and see how many times you post WHERE HAVE ALL THE CHRISTIANS GONE?

 

[MuzztheEagle]

Really? The world is ravaged by war, starvation, violence, drugs and greed... and you want to jump up and down about the dangers of someone like me? It’s completely absurd... you should have met me twenty years ago friend, perhaps then your carry on would have carried with it a smidgen of credibility.

You post like every man, woman and child is in mortal peril of being swallowed up by the next bible believing Christian who comes their way. Almost like you’re the king of logic and reason and all the dumb dumb’s can’t make up there own minds on where they sit. God complex maybe?

Statistics show there has been, and continues to be a great falling away of people who believe in Jesus Christ (Hail Satan!) so you’ll need to find some other crusade to embark upon. Shouldn’t be too difficult, considering the amount of homelessness going on in our major cities.

There’s literally billions of people who are right now being oppressed under cruel and unforgiving dictatorships, poverty unlike anything we’ve ever known, and westerners carry on with this kind of trash, labelling it compassion and social justice.

God help us if we ever had to go to war.

This old chestnut again! We are all beating up on the poor old Christians again (again more classic cult like behaviour to play victim when it starts to go wrong).
I don't think I'm going to cure the problems of the world chatting on a football forum. I do however think that if people start to think (and talk) about their beliefs and opinions that we will start moving towards solving some of these problems. I posted a link about charity some time ago now which I suggest you watch and comment on (and multiple times) - but you were far more interested in defending your precious beliefs. And I think this is the problem of faith, belief and the idea that these and our opinions are somehow more important than actual progress.
I've given you multiple opportunities to explain the reasoning behind your faith and why it should be used to justify stances on particular issues. But you continue to present the same argument that I just can't understand or you just dodge the question and attack science again. And speaking of which, I have been willing and, in most cases, able to answer these questions. I have done my best to explain them and present evidence for them - not once have I suggested that you are incapable of understanding and personality I find that a pretty high minded place to come from.
I've also let you know that I do plenty of hands on work in an effort to improve the world. My partner actually works to help the homeless and we do what we can to improve the local community. Personally, I have and continue to work to bring sanitation to and reduce the spread of disease in less fortunate parts of the world - please don't make assumptions about what my contribution to the world is. But, this is irrelevant to my argument here - bad ideas are bad ideas and they should be treated as such. If you think your beliefs and thinking aren't as flawed as I claim they are then stand up for them.
Stop playing the victim, give me some actual evidence and explain to me what I am missing rather than stating my inferiority.