Pre-Game Manly v Raiders [Round 4, 2022]

[Woodsie]

Our form is down because our forwards are not aiming up. Not because we dont have enough of them.

IMO opinion of course

Our forwards are not "aiming up" .. because it is not our style or game plan.

Individually keppie, Jake, paseka, etc are hitting hard ... but it is individual stuff and not maintained ... especially with just one prop on the bench and multiple forward positional changes involving walker to lock, Jake to prop, Lawton to 2nd row, bullimore to 2nd row, then lawton to hooker, Jake back to Locke, and Duffy duck to try and work it all out.

Our forwards will do there job if they know what their job is .

But I can confidently say that winning the game through the middle by power is not the plan.

 

[Ryan]

Our forwards are not "aiming up" .. because it is not our style or game plan.

Individually keppie, Jake, paseka, etc are hitting hard ... but it is individual stuff and not maintained ... especially with just one prop on the bench and multiple forward positional changes involving walker to lock, Jake to prop, Lawton to 2nd row, bullimore to 2nd row, then lawton to hooker, Jake back to Locke, and Duffy duck to try and work it all out.

Our forwards will do there job if they know what their job is .

But I can confidently say that winning the game through the middle by power is not the plan.

100% agree with every word here.

We don't appear to have a system (and if we DO, it's ****e). Des tactics appear easy to play against, easy to combat, easy to adapt against. Our game management is pathetic. Croker has tried too many failed 40/20's for it to be spontaneous. Our ruck management is abysmal (slowest statistically in the NRL), our attack is flat, we make little to no metres, teams can bully us out of games with rushing defense, I could go on.

The frustrating thing is:
1. We have the players to be better;
2. The team selections and positional plays are trash (everyone but Des knows it)
3. We lack enthusiasm, effort, energy, passion and intensity - i.e. Des doesn't get us up for games.

We need a modern day coaching director to help Des. Someone who isn't afraid to rip some accountability through the team - we NEED some players dropped. A coach who is able to adapt with the times, and be proactive, not reactive like Des (who's reactions are way too slow). Someone who is innovative around structure. a DEFINITE motivator, because our boys look disinterested and lost.

 

[John Nicholson]

It's possible your attitude to DCE (who I readily concede is no immortal-in-waiting) colours your assessment of his tackling?

Obviously for his whole career he has been spotted in defence, as all key players are, and especially because for a good deal of his Manly career he has been very much one of our few key men.

But I suggest he has always been one of the best tackling halves in the game, and his 2021 stats back that up. In fact, at a glance at these (from Foxsport stats) he's the best!

2021 Games Tackles Missed tackles

DCE ....... 25 ... 487 ... 51

Foz ....... 25 ... 367 ... 53

J Hughes ..... 24 ... 410 ... 48

B Hunt ..... 15 ... 253 ... 53

N Cleary...... 20 ... 344 ... 56

M Moses..... 22 ... 267 ... 54

S Walker .... 21 ... 278 ... 65

M Burton ....26 ... 346 ... 60

L Brooks ... 24 ... 426 ... 70

This is a good indication of the lack of strength of our forwards, where the halfback has to do more of the tackling.

DCE has the highest number of tackles made, and is comparable in missed tackles as other halves.

Give him a stronger pack and he won't have a "tackling problem".

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

We need a modern day coaching director to help Des. Someone who isn't afraid to rip some accountability through the team - we NEED some players dropped. A coach who is able to adapt with the times, and be proactive, not reactive like Des (who's reactions are way too slow). Someone who is innovative around structure. a DEFINITE motivator, because our boys look disinterested and lost.

Justin Langer?

 

[maxta]

Firstly I reckon DCE is a great 1 on 1 tackler and one of few halves to bring down a rampaging David Fifita on his own, along with many others....though in attack, the confused organisational skills when against tough opposition is a real issue, that has stalked his game at big moments through his career.
The REAL reason however, for DCE - Harper - Sipley and others being iscolated easily in the defensive line, is due to the fact our defensive line is retreating on the back foot after a 1 or 2 man "non dominant" tackle, which has allowed the opposition attack to control how the game is played and who to pinpoint in the defensive line.

 

[jbb/james]

It's possible your attitude to DCE (who I readily concede is no immortal-in-waiting) colours your assessment of his tackling?

Obviously for his whole career he has been spotted in defence, as all key players are, and especially because for a good deal of his Manly career he has been very much one of our few key men.

But I suggest he has always been one of the best tackling halves in the game, and his 2021 stats back that up. In fact, at a glance at these (from Foxsport stats) he's the best!

2021 Games Tackles Missed tackles

DCE ....... 25 ... 487 ... 51

Foz ....... 25 ... 367 ... 53

J Hughes ..... 24 ... 410 ... 48

B Hunt ..... 15 ... 253 ... 53

N Cleary...... 20 ... 344 ... 56

M Moses..... 22 ... 267 ... 54

S Walker .... 21 ... 278 ... 65

M Burton ....26 ... 346 ... 60

L Brooks ... 24 ... 426 ... 70

see this is where it gets tricky. its his style of defence i question, not the numbers and the bits you pick out leaving context a page behind

i think his numbers are large due to a few things
he is competitive
we regularly have massive tackle pressure due to many reasons some of which are directly in his control
man o man he is a target this last season and a half in particular due to the race up that never seems as visible on forans side,

some players are the master of the intercept as they give the illusion of space and being behind play, but being 100% switched on to the play to ambush
DCEs style gives the illusion so teams flirt and target it and im not sure recent data would suggest that is working in our favour regardless of how many he nabs, its the misses stats on that right side thats relevant

MY POINT is that a safe as house contract seems to impact his style as he ticks boxes but lacks the ( you tell me and its not a hooker) to take the ball to the line. once he has the ball the choice is his and he chooses to ( you tell me )

did he not give a candid interview in some podcast about supercoach last season that had people wondering. cant imagine id admit that with 6 months left

 

[Budgie]

But I can confidently say that winning the game through the middle by power is not the plan.

Can you confidently say what the game plan is? Because I’m buggered if I know!

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

but lacks the ( you tell me and its not a hooker) to take the ball to the line. once he has the ball the choice is his and he chooses to ( you tell me )

Sounds like you are saying he's scared or too into self preservation to take the line on?
Which doesn't tally with my observations!
Twice this year he's actually taken a hit-up from a tap penalty straight into the teeth of a set defence!! You can find the stats if you wish but I'd be surprised if any halfback has been tackled in possession more than DCE has this year. Often (I'm guessing this bit) because his supports weren't where they should have been.

 

[Woodsie]

Can you confidently say what the game plan is? Because I’m buggered if I know!

Nope, me too.

But if I were forced to guess, I would suggest that Dessie has swallowed the notion that the game is faster, and that lighter more mobile forwards will run amok and destroy opponents defences.

And this worked for him last year .. on 2 conditions ..

1) Tom had the greatest individual season in RL history .. cutting teams to pieces at will

2) the team we were playing was not a top 4 side.

Personally I think you still need to contest the middle with a power pack, before your mobile lads can be effective.

Anyway Budgie, I'm a dinosaur so take that with a grain of salt.

 

[Disco]

Our forwards are not "aiming up" .. because it is not our style or game plan.

Individually keppie, Jake, paseka, etc are hitting hard ... but it is individual stuff and not maintained ... especially with just one prop on the bench and multiple forward positional changes involving walker to lock, Jake to prop, Lawton to 2nd row, bullimore to 2nd row, then lawton to hooker, Jake back to Locke, and Duffy duck to try and work it all out.

Our forwards will do there job if they know what their job is .

But I can confidently say that winning the game through the middle by power is not the plan.

Don't disagree with that simply dont think adding a 3rd middle to the bench fixes things.

2 props played 20 odd minutes

 

[jbb/james]

Sounds like you are saying he's scared or too into self preservation to take the line on?
Which doesn't tally with my observations!
Twice this year he's actually taken a hit-up from a tap penalty straight into the teeth of a set defence!! You can find the stats if you wish but I'd be surprised if any halfback has been tackled in possession more than DCE has this year. Often (I'm guessing this bit) because his supports weren't where they should have been.

But that would be completely ignoring the fact i said, he was tough, competitive and all that other stuff, but that doesnt change the fact he rarely hits the line. Dce stranded, yep

You know when he does that little chook thing and gets tackled standing still, thats in that stat of tackled halfback think and back to the point

Cleary, hughes, munster, walker, keary get tackled delivering tough balls in tight position to promote the next player and get smashed, not flopped on. Please give me some example of this from dce , so i can open my eyes.

Game
Time stamp
Ive got kayo and the time

What do think would be a good number per game / month for a player of his ilk. Lets stop talking

 

[mickqld]

DCE works hard, competes, is really vested but due to other factors , IMO , most decisively , the 8 year contract there is lots missing

I have mentioned many times despite his big efforts , his shoulder has been missing from his defence for some time. His technique is unhelpful and could be linked

His headless chook is about one thing. not committing to a defender and virtually digging a hole to avoid hitting the line.

Never ever runs to line to kick .

Its a big 3 considering his standing, experience, position, leadership

There is something common here. Im not saying he is soft but he preserves himself , and i certainly suspect it has something to do with his run of games. His style is very jason taylor who also had a remarkable record . He is tough though, no doubt but playing within himself, not aerobicly but as a ball player

He is a tireless worker , tries hard , is really likeable and seems to be a great deputy , but he is a bit of a koala with that 8 year contract that hasnt allowed accountability.

Reason why it was said back in 2015 by some that we will never win a premiership with him as leader.

 

[Ron E. Gibbs]

Nope, me too.

But if I were forced to guess, I would suggest that Dessie has swallowed the notion that the game is faster, and that lighter more mobile forwards will run amok and destroy opponents defences.

If Dessie's game plan isn't to win the middle - which I'd suggest has been the game plan of every coach, every week in the history of rugby league, and is even more vital today than it ever was - then I'd encourage him to think again.

But listening to player interviews (with Andrew Davey, for example), it seems they are well aware that they haven't been winning that battle, and that in order to play the style of footy they want to play, they need to earn it through the forwards first. So if the players are aware, you'd think Des would be aware as well.

We've been getting out-worked and out-muscled. Our play-the-balls have been the slowest in the NRL. Des knows that; the players know it, too. If they can get on the front foot, all of a sudden Croker won't look so ordinary and our backs, including Tommy, will look like they have a pulse as well.

I know Des can be unorthodox, but there's no way he's coaching our pack to be weak as piss.

 

[Woodsie]

If Dessie's game plan isn't to win the middle - which I'd suggest has been the game plan of every coach, every week in the history of rugby league, and is even more vital today than it ever was - then I'd encourage him to think again.

But listening to player interviews (with Andrew Davey, for example), it seems they are well aware that they haven't been winning that battle, and that in order to play the style of footy they want to play, they need to earn it through the forwards first. So if the players are aware, you'd think Des would be aware as well.

We've been getting out-worked and out-muscled. Our play-the-balls have been the slowest in the NRL. Des knows that; the players know it, too. If they can get on the front foot, all of a sudden Croker won't look so ordinary and our backs, including Tommy, will look like they have a pulse as well.

I know Des can be unorthodox, but there's no way he's coaching our pack to be weak as piss.

Good post .. I agree Dessie wouldn't coach our pack to be weak as piss .. but when your game pattern is one forward run per set .. then go wide ... you are hardly coaching them to contest and win the middle .

 

[Eagle 1]

When has Cronk ever played behind a beaten pack? Or Reynolds for that matter… until this year. We’ll see how he goes.

Speaking of Reynolds, noticed him sucking in the big ones midway through the second half against the cowboys. If the Broncs think he's the answer to getting a top 8 spot, well, they are gravely mistaken..

 

[jbb/james]

Reason why it was said back in 2015 by some that we will never win a premiership with him as leader.

Was recently thinking of bringing back a few of those old posts

 

[Eagle 1]

The team has to shut Starling down this weekend:

Ricky had a ‘shattering’ Raiders ‘headache’ to solve... the solution was to embrace the ‘chaos’

Ricky had a ‘shattering’ Raiders ‘headache’ to solve... the solution was ‘chaos’

www.foxsports.com.au

yes, I agree BB, very effective runner of the ball, and very dangerous in broken play. Need to mark up on him to cut down his options.

 

[Eagle 1]

Not much talk on here on Josh Hodgson being out, personally I think it's a big out for them. They only just got away with it against the Titans.

 

[maxta]

In relation to the game plan, I see it differently....I reckon Des loves nothing more than his robust forwards bustling the opposition pack and is 100% the plan EVERY week, but many recent games there is good reason this has not been ideal - Field position.....
Manly have been pinned coming out of their own red zone due to opposition dominating field position, which calls for your 2, 3 , 4 and 5 scooting from half or taking a 1 out hit up....
This is what is largely nullifying our forward progress through the middle as due to elements of where the match is being played, it is our outside backs trying to simply win a half decent position for DCE to get a decent kick away.
When we start defending better and the opposition is kicking from deeper and our sets start from the Manly 30m or 40m which will happen, you will find our forward's come into the game much more as will the direct attack led by the big men up front.

 

[Woodsie]

In relation to the game plan, I see it differently....I reckon Des loves nothing more than his robust forwards bustling the opposition pack and is 100% the plan EVERY week, but many recent games there is good reason this has not been ideal - Field position.....
Manly have been pinned coming out of their own red zone due to opposition dominating field position, which calls for your 2, 3 , 4 and 5 scooting from half or taking a 1 out hit up....
This is what is largely nullifying our forward progress through the middle as due to elements of where the match is being played, it is our outside backs trying to simply win a half decent position for DCE to get a decent kick away.
When we start defending better and the opposition is kicking from deeper and our sets start from the Manly 30m or 40m which will happen, you will find our forward's come into the game much more as will the direct attack led by the big men up front.

Maxie .. love your stuff .. but you're dreaming .. if our bench is a desire to bustle the opposition pack ... then I'm bug eyed chinaman..