Make or Break

[jbb/james]

Not calling for Dessie’s head. I’m talking about taking a different approach to the game and reinventing the shape of our squad to move away from slow centres and big chunky forwards. We’re too cumbersome for this fast game in 2022.

Our pack, style of play and whats required to contend are at odds . This pack needs dominance or frequent breaks in play. Not everyone in the team knows this

Against lesser teams we score enough tries for our props to almost have fifo conditions, 5 minutes on, 5 minutes off. Only tries and the refs let our players regroup.

Our game awareness at times is pretty low.

 

[simon64]

Not saying give up, just think it’s crunch time if we are going to actually make a rise up the ranks and be one of the top teams in this competition.

We keep finding excuses week in week out for failing to take things to the next level. I’m getting a bit tired of the excuses and I’m starting to lean towards us not being good enough, as opposed to building towards something big.

I have to say, I agree with you Snake.

Watch Penrith. Not Melbourne. Penrith.

They are patience personified. Yes, they have a great 6, 7 and 9. And a more than acceptable 1.
But they wear sides down. They never panic. Every player knows what is and isn't their job. And everyone will make those little effort plays.

They're playing the rugby league version of chess. It's a cerebral game for Penrith with all of the physical elements thrown in. They play percentages until they have earned the right to be a little more expansive.

We do none of this. We have the potential to get to that level but we are not there yet. This is the role of the coach. Co-ordinate all of the individuals to make a single unit.

 

[Budgie]

Lots of good points but there's no way I'll be judging them on next week with the probable injuries and suspension. It'll be a miracle if they win.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

But as it doesn't seem to be Des's style to make bulk changes and reinventing to make that happen... I guess we'll just have to see which players force their way into the squad and go from there.

Des obviously has already been thinking long and hard about the shape of next year's squad, eg we've already lined up Tuilagi.
In his first go as Manly coach he very strategically added players year to year and i'm sure he's putting the same amount of thought into it this time too. But it can't be easy when there are significant changes to the rules year to year.
But in terms of doing away with slow centres and cumbersome forwards, we've clearly got a couple of speedy backs to bring in and signing players like Bullemor and Tuilagi shows we're not oblivious to the limitations of the Sipleys and Boyle types.
Maybe Des is also very confident about Manase's future (?)

 

[mave]

In these days of momentum possession footy this is what can happen to any team. One player exposed a glaring weakness on our right side, we have the time to rectify this. Also having our best forward out in Alioi, and with Turbo and Schuster out as well. I'm not pressing the panic button just yet.

Sure.
I'm not pressing the panic button either.

2022 possession momentum footy is a lot slower than 2021 possession momentum footy.

Teams that let in 32 points in 40 minutes of footy are not in line to win comps.

Defence wins comps. It won comps in every year in footy since 1908, except the Tigers in 2005.
Defence won a comp in the new touch footy rules of 2021.

Defence will win this year's comp.

We need to get our **** together defensively.
We have enough points in us, naturally.....

 

[Eagle 1]

Not to attack you personally, but this is the sort of attitude that I’ve harvested for a few years now and it’s gone stale. Injuries don’t account for inconsistencies when you’re a good side. The Sharks had Hamlen-Uele out and their forward leader in Finucane and didn’t miss a beat. Last year Pappy went down for basically the whole year and Hynes comes along and Storm go on a record winning run. Good sides that are fair dinkum win regularly regardless of disruptions to the roster. We’re full of excuses here at Manly when we lose.

Essentially, I think the excuses are just a way of keeping the faith but the stark reality is we are not good enough at the moment. I’m done with excuses and think it’s time for us to step up or we start planning a different approach/direction for the future.

Ordinarily I'd agree to most of your comments, but gota say we were down plenty of forwards and no Tom and Shoe of course. Not to mention Walks, Davey and Paseka all going off at various stages of the game. Would like to see us play at full strength for me to give an opinion though.

 

[Woodsie]

Snake's concerns are real .. at full strength we are clearly a top 4 - 6 side .. and will dominate most teams ..

The issue to be answered is ... in the games against the top 4 teams, will it be our roster found wanting ... or our coaching ??

Or will we prevail.

I don't know .. but I am not a fan of not contesting the middle.

 

[Frogz]

And what's our record against top 4 teams? And don't worry about souffs sitting 8th they will be top 4

 

[Eagle 1]

Sure.
I'm not pressing the panic button either.

2022 possession momentum footy is a lot slower than 2021 possession momentum footy.

Teams that let in 32 points in 40 minutes of footy are not in line to win comps.

Defence wins comps. It won comps in every year in footy since 1908, except the Tigers in 2005.
Defence won a comp in the new touch footy rules of 2021.

Defence will win this year's comp.

We need to get our **** together defensively.
We have enough points in us, naturally.....

ok I get all that, but all the damage was done to us going down the Harper Saab right side channel by one Sharks player. Not through the forwards or through dinky kicks into the in-goal. All's I'm saying is, there isn't to much to fix, Kalua will no doubt hold his place for Friday, and not before time. Not sure why we're getting so down on the team tbh.

 

[mave]

The issue to be answered is ... in the games against the top 4 teams, will it be our roster found wanting ... or our coaching ??

Imo, we have an obvious lack of grit.

Josh A is a massive step towards what we need, but does not play enough.
Keppie, whom I thought was the answer, has under delivered thus far.
Marty has been ok, but was never really the answer.

We need a Kennedy, a Watmough, a Ronnie Gibbs.

We need mongrel, so the rest will follow.

 

[Pete W]

We are a slightly above average team with a couple of marquee players coached by a once great coach who's tactics and methods are not suited to today's game

 

[mave]

ok I get all that, but all the damage was done to us going down the Harper Saab right side channel by one Sharks player. Not through the forwards or through dinky kicks into the in-goal. All's I'm saying is, there isn't to much to fix, Kalua will no doubt hold his place for Friday, and not before time. Not sure why we're getting so down on the team tbh.

How do you think sides earn the right to go wide?

Yeah, Harper had a shocker.
Yeah DCE made some dud calls.
Yeah Saab made very few calls at all.

None of this happens if we own the middle.

I appreciate we had outs for last week, but it's an ongoing issue against the top sides.

 

[Chip and Chase]

This feels a bit like a commentary on Des so I'll throw in my two cents here.

Ivan Cleary was turfed out by Penrith at the end of 2015 with a career win ratio of less than 50%. Three years later he returned and now they are winning 75% of their matches.

So... were Penrith right to sack him the first time? Was he actually a better coach when he returned? Or is neither true and the stars simply aligned upon his return?

I'm not really a fan of the idea of getting rid of the coach while we are still doing, on the balance of things, a passable job. There are not any demonstrably better options available and as 2018 proved, you need to be careful with the candidate you select.

We all know that Barrett set that system up at Penrith and now Cleary is cashing in upon his return 🙂

In my opinion we got further than we probably deserved to last year purely on the back of a stand out season by Tommy. Nothing else changed - our defence wasn't any better, our attack wasn't any more clinical and organised, our speed, intensity, and desire weren't any more focused. Tommy played out of his skin in a season where the rule changes and speed of the game suited his prodigious skill set, dragged everyone else along for the ride. Every single pundit in the NRL was lauding Turbo's season as one of the most dominant ever on record, if not THE most dominant. Is that going to happen again this season ??

We can beat up on teams below us and around our level, but have struggled to find that next gear to go with the serious premiership sides.I have no expectation that the situation will change this year, in fact I think we will struggle more now they have slowed the game again and Tommy will lose some of his impact. I said a few seasons ago I don't think we will win the comp while we are paying DCE $1.2mil a season - it affects the team composition too much and we can't field a balanced enough side to make up for his obvious shortcomings as a playmaker/leader. We've lacked leadership, composure and belief for a while now, since Killer, et al left essentially. The culture of the place has changed in my opinion.

We've got some good young talent, but unfortunately I don't personally see us winning a premiership with our current halves pairing. Not knocking their effort, that's always there, but effort alone doesn't win you titles. They just aren't dynamic and clinical enough to drive a side all the way to the top. I hope I'm wrong, but I reckon we are 2 or 3 players short of being a genuine premiership side and at least one of those players is 6 and/or 7. That's why I just don't understand us extending DCE's contract, he's not the answer.

On a positive note the Bunnies were pretty bloody ordinary against Tigers last night. A rookie half and Cody Walker his usual flakey self saw them flustered out of the game. I think they have a few forward injuries too. If they play like that again we've got a punchers chance.

 

[Woodsie]

Imo, we have an obvious lack of grit.

Josh A is a massive step towards what we need, but does not play enough.
Keppie, whom I thought was the answer, has under delivered thus far.
Marty has been ok, but was never really the answer.

We need a Kennedy, a Watmough, a Ronnie Gibbs.

We need mongrel, so the rest will follow.

Don't wish to put words into your mouth .. but are you saying we have the troops .. but not the attitude ?

Is that a coaching thing .. or the lack of an individual character ?

 

[Pete W]

We all know that Barrett set that system up at Penrith and now Cleary is cashing in upon his return 🙂

In my opinion we got further than we probably deserved to last year purely on the back of a stand out season by Tommy. Nothing else changed - our defence wasn't any better, our attack wasn't any more clinical and organised, our speed, intensity, and desire weren't any more focused. Tommy played out of his skin in a season where the rule changes and speed of the game suited his prodigious skill set, dragged everyone else along for the ride. Every single pundit in the NRL was lauding Turbo's season as one of the most dominant ever on record, if not THE most dominant. Is that going to happen again this season ??

We can beat up on teams below us and around our level, but have struggled to find that next gear to go with the serious premiership sides.I have no expectation that the situation will change this year, in fact I think we will struggle more now they have slowed the game again and Tommy will lose some of his impact. I said a few seasons ago I don't think we will win the comp while we are paying DCE $1.2mil a season - it affects the team composition too much and we can't field a balanced enough side to make up for his obvious shortcomings as a playmaker/leader. We've lacked leadership, composure and belief for a while now, since Killer, et al left essentially. The culture of the place has changed in my opinion.

We've got some good young talent, but unfortunately I don't personally see us winning a premiership with our current halves pairing. Not knocking their effort, that's always there, but effort alone doesn't win you titles. They just aren't dynamic and clinical enough to drive a side all the way to the top. I hope I'm wrong, but I reckon we are 2 or 3 players short of being a genuine premiership side and at least one of those players is 6 and/or 7. That's why I just don't understand us extending DCE's contract, he's not the answer.

On a positive note the Bunnies were pretty bloody ordinary against Tigers last night. A rookie half and Cody Walker his usual flakey self saw them flustered out of the game. I think they have a few forward injuries too. If they play like that again we've got a punchers chance.

"...I don't think we will win the comp while we are paying DCE $1.2mil a season - it affects the team composition too much and we can't field a balanced enough side to make up for his obvious shortcomings as a playmaker/leader. We've lacked leadership, composure and belief for a while now, since Killer, et al left essentially. The culture of the place has changed in my opinion"

Absolutely friggin nailed it mate.

Unfortunately extending him to until at least 2025 was another mistake

 

[mave]

Don't wish to put words into your mouth .. but are you saying we have the troops .. but not the attitude ?

Is that a coaching thing .. or the lack of an individual character ?

We lack 1 individual....like a Rambo, BK, Choc.
We need to find 1 to give us attitude.

Unfortunate, but true.
Imo.

 

[Eagle 1]

How do you think sides earn the right to go wide?

Yeah, Harper had a shocker.
Yeah DCE made some dud calls.
Yeah Saab made very few calls at all.

None of this happens if we own the middle.

I appreciate we had outs for last week, but it's an ongoing issue against the top sides.

Our 1st half was possession less, we couldn't earn the right to go wide, because we never really had any ball anyway. 2nd Half was completely different and doing what you said, owing the middle.

 

[mave]

I was happy to let AFB go, given the changes to the rules and interpretations.

I think now that I was dead wrong.

He is leading the Warriors from the front, playing big minutes, and is exactly what we are lacking.

 

[mave]

Our 1st half was possession less, we couldn't earn the right to go wide, because we never really had any ball anyway. 2nd Half was completely different and doing what you said, owing the middle.

Almost the exact opposite of the week before v Titans.

Cmon mate.
Why do you think we had low % of possession in our poor halves ?

 

[mave]

In case anyone was wondering.....owning the middle is in direct correlation to maximising possession....which is also in direct correlation to defending at our best, which is also in direct correlation to winning games of footy.

High possession starts with a quality defence