Jamal Fogarty

[SeaEagleRock8]

But then, he is put in good kicking positions because he has forwards that power over the advantage line.

Probably a point for some other thread, but these days it's often the 'back 5' that put a team in good kicking position by starting sets powerfully.
Not sure where Manly's back 5 ranks for metre eating but suspect we may not be one of the best, our backs are more there for long distance finishing it seems.

 

[Pete W]

You could be right, there’s a great chance you’re bang on…but like all opinions, they’re subjective. I’m of a different belief but appreciate that I could end up being wrong.

I think we are too black and white when it comes to analysis of RL. It’s never one thing. We could just as easily suggest that one of the reasons Canberra’s pack is going so well, is because Fogerty is controlling field position and turning the opposition around with his fantastic long kicking game. He rescues numerous poor yardage sets with huge kicks. He tires the opposition out because they’re forced to ruck it off their own line and out of corners consistently. But then, he is put in good kicking positions because he has forwards that power over the advantage line. They’re complimenting each other.

Which brings me to Manly. We aren’t going to revolutionise our pack if we pass on Fogerty. It’s not a war chest, it’s somewhere around 600k a year. That doesn’t buy us a marquee forward or even two decent forwards. It gets us one decent forward and I don’t even know who that is…it’s not like the market is flooded with them.

So I’d take the guy with the good kicking game that can ice 5th tackle plays and lead us around the park with composure so we don’t get the spoon. Then we can work towards rebuilding the pack over the next two to three years (because realistically it won’t be rebuilt in a year). The turn over of forwards will be gradual, such is the nature of working around the salary cap, identifying targets and having those targets accept offers.

A good kicking game was on display when the Eels looked like a completely different team with Moses on Monday. Sure, Fogerty doesn’t have Moses running and passing game but he does have an elite kicking game. He also stays composed and doesn’t resort to low percentage plays that turn over possession.

Yes a good kicking game is critical. But this is one of DCE's best qualities, and it hasn't helped us a great deal. Maybe this is the reason we haven't picked up a wooden spoon (although I doubt this - if anything, Jake's ruck defence would be the single determining factor in helping Manly avoid the spoon this last decade). In any case, Arthur has a fairly decent kicking game.

600k may not seem like much, but it's a start. Obviously a turnover of forwards won't be done over night, but if we miss opportunities like this, a changing of the guard will only take longer. I feel that even just one elite, mobile forward, with the right attitude, could have a greater impact on this squad than what Fogarty over Arthur will offer.

 

[Forster eagle]

Won’t brooks be gone in 2 years? Meaning potentially Walsh at 7, with large at 14 for a year.

Enough already...forget Fogerty, get a youngster in and please, please, please buy me some hard forwards.

 

[Brookie Bob]

Canberra or Manly?: Fogarty comments on future, receives upgraded contract offer

He is off-contract at the end of 2025.

www.zerotackle.com

 

[lsz]

Reeks of a desperate club without any canny forward planning. Arko ... you are so sorely missed!
.

If you watch the Jamie Humphries podcast with the Johns boys you get the very strong feeling that the club thought DCE would still be here (even though it was confusing for him etc) which is why they also bought walsh and large...for when he finished.

I do not think it is a lack of forward planning rather an inability to manage players and their expectations

 

[Ben]

Enough already...forget Fogerty, get a youngster in and please, please, please buy me some hard forwards.

What youngster would you get in right now? It’s well and good to object to the Fogarty planning but you must back it up with a solution.

Personally I think this is exactly what we need in the squad. Our young halves need to cut their teeth in NSW cup as did Humphreys for a few years before being given the keys to the team. A very steady head opposed to the reckless headless chook that’s crippled us when the pressure is on. This will be one of the most important signings we have made since Marty Taupau and Api Koroisau back in 2016.

I can’t emphasise how astute and impactful this signing would be.

 

[JakeyB789]

Yes a good kicking game is critical. But this is one of DCE's best qualities, and it hasn't helped us a great deal. Maybe this is the reason we haven't picked up a wooden spoon (although I doubt this - if anything, Jake's ruck defence would be the single determining factor in helping Manly avoid the spoon this last decade). In any case, Arthur has a fairly decent kicking game.

600k may not seem like much, but it's a start. Obviously a turnover of forwards won't be done over night, but if we miss opportunities like this, a changing of the guard will only take longer. I feel that even just one elite, mobile forward, with the right attitude, could have a greater impact on this squad than what Fogarty over Arthur will offer.

Fogarty uses his kicking game much more effectively than DCE - almost always kicks on last (rather than DCE's 3rd or 4th tackle 40/20 attempts with about a 5% success rate) and consistently puts up high, contestable bombs in attack which fall right on the goal line (opposed to DCE's that are always about 5m short, or his grubber kicks that MIGHT force a dropout which we are only a 50/50 chance of getting the back on anyway)

To your point though. Arthur played behind some pretty strong packs at Parra without a lot of success. Admittedly haven't watched much of him in Cup this year, but our results there haven't been too inspiring and his kicking in the trials earlier in the year was pretty poor. I like the kid but I don't think he has a future in the halves at NRL level, maybe in the forwards which Seibold has eluded to but Arthur has still never been tested there, even in Cup. Judging from Humphreys' interview with the Johns' I imagine there must be a bit of confusion for these younger fringe players with what their role is.

Sign Fogarty for 600-700k, use the extra space saved on DCE to re-sign Bully and sign some other cheaper, younger forwards and go from there. With nearly half our roster off-contract this year and the Trbojevic contracts nearly ready to be re-negotiated we should eventually have some space to improve the roster, but throwing in a reserve grader or 18 year old kid probably isn't the way to go.

 

[Brookie1973]

If one of those two kids turn out to be super stars we'll be very lucky, for every talented kid that makes it there are another 10 that dont especially in the

If you watch the Jamie Humphries podcast with the Johns boys you get the very strong feeling that the club thought DCE would still be here (even though it was confusing for him etc) which is why they also bought walsh and large...for when he finished.

I do not think it is a lack of forward planning rather an inability to manage players and their expectations

I suspect they just assumed he would stay for less (sub $1m) but still seems odd they had no contingency plans in case he either retired and went elsewhere.

 

[LeonardCohen]

Probably a point for some other thread, but these days it's often the 'back 5' that put a team in good kicking position by starting sets powerfully.
Not sure where Manly's back 5 ranks for metre eating but suspect we may not be one of the best, our backs are more there for long distance finishing it seems.

The middles are typically play 3 and 4, so they play a role, but I agree; it also speaks to the intention behind my original point; it's never black and white, i.e. one thing that determines success. If you have a half back that can find grass from inside their own half or land the ball in the opposition 10m zone when kicking from midfield, you're turning the opposition around; that creates a fatigue and that fatigue is what allows your back 5 and middles to gain momentum through the ruck. Matt Burton was particularly effective last year in turning average sets into very good sets with a booming kick. Again, only one piece of puzzle but this idea that Fogerty is only effective because of his pack is a bit short sighted, IMO.

Fatigue is something oft overlooked where RL analysis is concerned, because you cannot always see it. Every ruck in a game of RL is a physical battle. If you're fresher than the opposition, you've got a better chance of winning that contact. We all know the benefits of winning the ruck. A good kicking game is a huge contributor in reducing and/or inducing fatigue.

 

[LeonardCohen]

Yes a good kicking game is critical. But this is one of DCE's best qualities, and it hasn't helped us a great deal. Maybe this is the reason we haven't picked up a wooden spoon (although I doubt this - if anything, Jake's ruck defence would be the single determining factor in helping Manly avoid the spoon this last decade). In any case, Arthur has a fairly decent kicking game.

600k may not seem like much, but it's a start. Obviously a turnover of forwards won't be done over night, but if we miss opportunities like this, a changing of the guard will only take longer. I feel that even just one elite, mobile forward, with the right attitude, could have a greater impact on this squad than what Fogarty over Arthur will offer.

See, I thought Arthur's kicking game was an abomination when I watched him play in the trials.

 

[JakeyB789]

FYI

Tom has played 156 NRL matches in 11 seasons.

Fogarty has played 102 NRL matches in 9 seasons.

That's as misleading stat as you can get - Fogarty didn't establish himself as an NRL half until 2020 with the Titans. Before that he only played 2 NRL games in 2017, then spent 2018 & 2019 playing for Burleigh in QLD Cup and missed only 8 games in 2018 over that time.

If you ignore those years Fogarty has played 99 of a possible 127 games since the start of 2020 at 78%, Turbo has played 66/128 at 52%. Sure Fogarty has missed a few games over the years, but it's not even a comparison with Tom.

 

[lsz]

I suspect they just assumed he would stay for less (sub $1m) but still seems odd they had no contingency plans in case he either retired and went elsewhere.

I am going to guess he lead them down that path i.e. he was going to play etc

All that said who knows!

 

[manly al]

Maybe the slow start or interrupted start for Walsh to develop his League game is influencing some rethink on acquiring Fogarty but no doubt a bit of a catch 22 situation
Appears that Walsh has quite reasonable individual ability , bit hard to assess his organizational skills or defense at a more intense level but presume that he has a reasonable boot on him .
More inclined to look at the hopeful prospect of Walsh and Large being ready or up to it in the not too distant future , can only assume and would say the realistic call that 6 is no place for Turbo in the present circumstances is right , maybe lukewarm on Brooks playing 7 for whatever reason .
2 yeas for Fogarty seems more preferable if suitable terms can be concluded but again with the partial or short term setbacks for Walsh to date , quite understandable a longer proposed contract for Fogarty
Again however , not that keen just on my sense of the situation for the 3 year deal

 

[The Indian]

We are in such a weak bargaining position that Fogarty's agent can play us off a break and now get him more $$$ and an extra year. That seems to be what is happening now. Wouldn't even surprise me if Ricky Stuart is playing along with the media a bit in helping Jamal get the best deal given their close relationship ( they have Fogarty's replacement signed already after all ).

But this is the position we find ourselves in. Might not be as much extra cap space being free'd up as we hoped in order to buy those desperately needed forwards.

There's been quite a few missteps over recent times in regards to retention etc via DCE and Schuster, Humphries and AFB just to name a few and whilst salary cap management is an imperfect Science you could hardly say we have been great at it either.

 

[Ron E. Gibbs]

I think Fogarty would be an excellent replacement for DCE and I'd like him at Manly, but I get the feeling this is all just a charade and he'll stay at the Raiders.

People will complain that we bungled the negotiations and showed our hand too early, but really, just like with DCE, Fogarty is going to do what he's going to do. Not much the club can do besides putting a good offer to him.

Of course, it would help if we didn't suck and look way less likely to challenge for a premiership than Canberra…

 

[bob dylan]

That's as misleading stat as you can get - Fogarty didn't establish himself as an NRL half until 2020 with the Titans. Before that he only played 2 NRL games

2017, then spent 2018 & 2019 playing for Burleigh in QLD Cup and missed only 8 games in 2018 over that time.

If you ignore those years Fogarty has played 99 of a possible 127 games since the start of 2020 at 78%, Turbo has played 66/128 at 52%. Sure Fogarty has missed a few games over the years, but it's not even a comparison with Tom.

He played in Burleigh because of lack of form - whats the difference between losing form and getting hurt? Either he way didt play nrl, but i get your point.

I guess if we want to get technical we could add Tom's Origin, World Cup and other international games to his tally. Then we could add on the matches he had to stand down due to Origin commitments.

 

[JakeyB789]

He played in Burleigh because of lack of form - whats the difference between losing form and getting hurt? Either he way didt play nrl, but i get your point.

I guess if we want to get technical we could add Tom's Origin, World Cup and other international games to his tally. Then we could add on the matches he had to stand down due to Origin commitments.

Not sure he 'lost form' - you could look at it as the Titans failing to realise what they had while they felt they had to stick with their own million dollar man Ash Taylor to finish 3rd last and last in those 2 years. I'm sure Fogarty's form wasn't too bad given Burleigh made a prelim and won the comp in that time. It wasn't until Holbrook was appointed coach for him to get a proper run in first grade, and he hasn't been out of it since.

We could add Tom's rep games into the mix but since 2020 he's played the one full Origin series in 2021, 2 games in 2023 where he did his pec and missed the rest of the year, and the 3 games for Australia at the end of last year. Otherwise he's been unavailable for every other rep game too so it wouldn't really make much of a difference to your point, it was just absurd to use those seasons from over 5 years ago when Fogarty wasn't in first grade yet and Tom had actually played a couple of full seasons then (something he hasn't done since)

 

[BOZO]

We just need a fill in, it’s going to be **** whichever way you look at it , couple of rough years coming.

A couple of rough years coming until the end of Sombre Seibold's Tenor
and Hopefully Mestrov and Penn can follow
So Manly can replace them with Great People to Make Manly Great Again

We Need a change for the Greater
Staying the Same means more Pain

 

[Thewestisbest]

What youngster would you get in right now? It’s well and good to object to the Fogarty planning but you must back it up with a solution.

Personally I think this is exactly what we need in the squad. Our young halves need to cut their teeth in NSW cup as did Humphreys for a few years before being given the keys to the team. A very steady head opposed to the reckless headless chook that’s crippled us when the pressure is on. This will be one of the most important signings we have made since Marty Taupau and Api Koroisau back in 2016.

I can’t emphasise how astute and impactful this signing would be.

He is exactly what we need in our halves. Then it will be a case of strengthening our forwards with some pace and agility.

 

[Thewestisbest]

That's as misleading stat as you can get - Fogarty didn't establish himself as an NRL half until 2020 with the Titans. Before that he only played 2 NRL games in 2017, then spent 2018 & 2019 playing for Burleigh in QLD Cup and missed only 8 games in 2018 over that time.

If you ignore those years Fogarty has played 99 of a possible 127 games since the start of 2020 at 78%, Turbo has played 66/128 at 52%. Sure Fogarty has missed a few games over the years, but it's not even a comparison with Tom.

@bob dylan is blowin' in the wind again I see.