Fulton’s West Syd plan success or failure ??

[Uk eagle]

Out

Out here, in the Greater West, the problem you raise is overcome by grading the players into junior teams and divisions. The vast majority of kids out this way have fun trying to win their respective competitions, they aren't too fussed on playing in a participation award team. But they do have those teams available for the small number of boys who aren't keen on the rough stuff and the biff.

My son plays C grade. He has a crack but didn't inherit his mother's athletic ability.

For one minute I thought you were going to say he didn't inherit his mother's ability with the rough stuff and the biff

 

[Thewestisbest]

Sunshine Coast was the perfect fit. You grow up there, ya move to Manly and you appreciate the life there. It’s an attractive proposition.

Travelling 90+ minutes to see your family and go to church when you’re not even that fussed on the beach or local lifestyle is actually a detraction.

I know what you're gettin

Ultimately, I don't think it is so much about where a given player is from, but rather that a system / environment exists to farm, target, support, engage and harvest local players.

For us specifically, I think the ratio of local : outsourced is important to control, ill get to that..

One thing is that it is unsustainable to try cash in on western sydney products when there are around 8 other sydney teams. [i.e see the outdated 'nrl team map' image at the bottom of this post]

But there's a fair few issues that come to mind from > outsourcing when it comes to young local sports teams

Notably, buying young players and injecting them into local teams can make the sport too serious at a time when it should be just about having fun (I have experienced a bit of this one).

• Local junior teams are competitive. Like anything unregulated, there will be those exploiting 'the system', enticing players from larger metropolitan or western development areas just to get / stay on top.
• With Manly's development model turning it's eye to the West, local junior teams were encouraged to keep stacking their squads with outside talent
• Less responsibility to develop players + have fun

It goes unsaid that a model like this could lead to less local engagement

• Many local juniors are just playing for fun at junior levels, until it becomes too serious
• Less regulation in local comps = > teams with manopoly = < competitive competitions = < local players and teams = more games further away = < local local players again...

Also, it's highly unlikely outsourced teenagers supported and/or understood the club;

• Likely to lack any deep-rooted investment in the club, its culture and tradition.
• Loyalty to the manager, instead of the team (we've seen this alot with Tartak's clients)
• It's much easier to instill the 'manly mentality' into young, impressionable manly fans than those getting bussed over at young ages for $ and a promise of opportunity

And finally, there's also the problem of maintaining an 'equal playing field', or putting all development eggs into a select few baskets

• Greater outsourcing = greater financial investment in young players = greater conflict of interest in picking/developing players
  • In theory... I haven't been around to see it this one in practice

That's my unvalidated take on why it's not a great development model

That said, there's different issues too. Notably, there's a major lack of marketing regarding junior footy across the Northern Beaches. If anyone was serious about development, it would be shoved in our faces... All. The. Time.

I understand what you're getting at though. It ultimately comes down to numbers. Young boys on the Peninsular surf, they play rugby, afl, soccer. There's a lot to take away their attention. Rugby League is like a religion out here, every third or fourth kid has a footy tucked under his arm.

 

[Thewestisbest]

For one minute I thought you were going to say he didn't inherit his mother's ability with the rough stuff and the biff

😄 No, he inherited both those traits from her.

 

[Deleted member 26876]

I know what you're gettin

I understand what you're getting at though. It ultimately comes down to numbers. Young boys on the Peninsular surf, they play rugby, afl, soccer. There's a lot to take away their attention. Rugby League is like a religion out here, every third or fourth kid has a footy tucked under his arm.

100%. In some ways I think there is an appetite for that to take hold here too. It just seems like there's a general complacency when it comes to promoting the local game.

Whatever they are currently spending on marketing, they should triple it, then double it again... I think Toovey may be a great influence with Scott gone.

 

[KNUCKLES]

Out

Out here, in the Greater West, the problem you raise is overcome by grading the players into junior teams and divisions. The vast majority of kids out this way have fun trying to win their respective competitions, they aren't too fussed on playing in a participation award team. But they do have those teams available for the small number of boys who aren't keen on the rough stuff and the biff.

My son plays C grade. He has a crack but didn't inherit his mother's athletic ability.

Who does your boy play for?

 

[Shoe1]

My son plays C grade. He has a crack but didn't inherit his mother's athletic ability.

Are you Brad Arthur?

 

[double hoops]

Ultimately, I don't think it is so much about where a given player is from, but rather that a system / environment exists to farm, target, support, engage and harvest local players.

For us specifically, I think the ratio of local : outsourced is important to control, ill get to that..

One thing is that it is unsustainable to try cash in on western sydney products when there are around 8 other sydney teams. [i.e see the outdated 'nrl team map' image at the bottom of this post]

But there's a fair few issues that come to mind from > outsourcing when it comes to young local sports teams

Notably, buying young players and injecting them into local teams can make the sport too serious at a time when it should be just about having fun (I have experienced a bit of this one).

• Local junior teams are competitive. Like anything unregulated, there will be those exploiting 'the system', enticing players from larger metropolitan or western development areas just to get / stay on top.
• With Manly's development model turning it's eye to the West, local junior teams were encouraged to keep stacking their squads with outside talent
• Less responsibility to develop players + have fun

It goes unsaid that a model like this could lead to less local engagement

• Many local juniors are just playing for fun at junior levels, until it becomes too serious
• Less regulation in local comps = > teams with manopoly = < competitive competitions = < local players and teams = more games further away = < local local players again...

Also, it's highly unlikely outsourced teenagers supported and/or understood the club;

• Likely to lack any deep-rooted investment in the club, its culture and tradition.
• Loyalty to the manager, instead of the team (we've seen this alot with Tartak's clients)
• It's much easier to instill the 'manly mentality' into young, impressionable manly fans than those getting bussed over at young ages for $ and a promise of opportunity

And finally, there's also the problem of maintaining an 'equal playing field', or putting all development eggs into a select few baskets

• Greater outsourcing = greater financial investment in young players = greater conflict of interest in picking/developing players
  • In theory... I haven't been around to see it this one in practice

That's my unvalidated take on why it's not a great development model

That said, there's different issues too. Notably, there's a major lack of marketing regarding junior footy across the Northern Beaches. If anyone was serious about development, it would be shoved in our faces... All. The. Time.

Your maps kind of say it all.
Some where in that little box is all the Sydney clubs. And look at what there all up against.

 

[robbiea]

Manly is not western Sydney.
Haumole who is our best ,wasnt even scouted.
He turned up to training with his mate and asked for a run.

 

[Terry Zarsoff]

I believe simonsson played for Cromer or harbord

Yes his Wiki entry intimated that he played his junior football in Canberra. It might have been amended, because I am sure I have read elsewhere that he played in our juniors. His dad played for North Sydney.

 

[manlyfan76]

No premiership= fail.

Easiest question of the year so far.

 

[The Wheel]

Although Bob Fultons master plan of recruiting young players from Western Sydney may have shown flashes of brilliance, has it really been a success if every time one of these young superstars makes first grade and strings a couple of decent games together their managers agitate for huge contract upgrades. We basically end up paying loads for players we helped develop so therefore any benefit we got from developing them is lost because we end up paying overs after being held to ransom by their management. Put this into the equation and then ask yourself has the Fultons Western Sydney masterplan really worked or are we in the same position financially if we had just signed the player after they debut for another club. Its nearly worse when we develop them because we feel more pressure to retain them after all our investment in their development.

How many premierships have we won in this time?

 

[winnyason]

Was Koula a western sydney player or a Manly local junior ?

 

[Pete W]

If your local area has been neglected. That’s just not the same issue as West Sydney where the club have clearly been recruiting from not being a success.

Penrith way is the biggest League nursery in Australia. Our club is negligent if they don’t have a program in place to tap into that amount of players.

The Question has to be asked? Has Qld been neglected? Country NSW? Pacific Islands? New Zealand? England? Poaching Rugby Union? Mars..

It’s a results driven business and I don’t know bout you, but my expectation of Mr Penn is he provides the resources for the club to search the world to make our team the best.

Many of our clubs greatest where did we get them from? it’s not playing in the local comp. Bozo, Cliffy, Ridge, the Stewart Brothers, DCE, Foz, Killer, Matai, Hasler, Ward.

Very few champs since the comp became National and not just a Sydney / NSW comp would be locals.

I know you guys and girls are called the insular peninsula for a reason, but the whole concept of local grown talent is just a bull**** argument that has just never existed in recent decades.

Correct me if I am wrong, but think even Mestrov May have accepted that the local teams and comp may not have been as connected, with the Sea Eagles as much as they could be. Call it Neglected.

But that’s just not the same discussion as bitching about the good work the club have done in looking further afield.

Good points, except for the resources Penn apparently provides to make us successful. Look at Politis. Love or hate the Roosters, you can see an owner who is willing to constantly invest, All he wants to see is them winning comps. Tbh, Penn couldn't give two sh*ts if Manly win anything, so long as he wins financially

 

[Nordburg]

How many premierships have we won in this time?

And the only time they did go close,2021,it took an unbelievable,never to be repeated again,season by a true local junior that wasn’t bussed in

 

[Woodsie]

make them happy and hope they'll stay.

Hope is good ... but not something a future should be based on ..

some of them just might stay.

Hoping again ... and even if they do stay ... do we get them cheaper? .. are we getting Jake, Tom and Haumole for less than other clubs would pay ?

Unless you're cashed up,

We will have paid Latu Fainu a million before he plays 1st grade ... if (hoping) he does for Manly ... and then you can guarantee his Manger Tartak will get his contract upgraded to top market value within days ... part of my opinion is that it costs us far more than just buying the finished product ..

Manly is just not a desirable place for off-contract stars.

That is cyclical ... not a permanent condition ..

Don't get me wrong, I was a Manly junior, and I love having the junior comps and seeing locals come through ... and I would be devastated if we ever stopped supporting them ...

My comments are based solely from a hypothetical Cost V benefit analysis angle ... and as I said ... I have trouble coming up with any benefits ..

 

[Woodsie]

Neither do we. Of the Western Sydney collective (outside of Koula who attended Newington College) they went through the free public school system. Further, a bus commuted the Western Sydney juniors from Fairfield to Narrabean so no accommodation was provided.

Yes, but if we recruit from the Bush, QLD. Newcastle, North coast. New Zealand ... or anywhere further than a bus trip ?

Last year we recruited and signed a young school kid star from Coff's Harbour .. relocate, schools the works .. next thing I heard he had gone to Easts ..

 

[Woodsie]

Honestly like someone said above , why spend gazillions on juniors who just get poached by the Rorters.

Do **** all and poach everyone else’s !!

Bring back the spirit of Arko ... Fulton, Reilly, Branighan, Boyd, O'Neill, Mayes, Irvine etc etc ..

 

[Bearfax]

Bring back the spirit of Arko ... Fulton, Reilly, Branighan, Boyd, O'Neill, Mayes, Irvine etc etc ..

Regrettably Woodsie that was before salary caps and when Manly had a bucket load of cash and a clever administrator (who brought in young players from far afield). Fulton (Wollongong), Eadie (Central Coast), Reilly (England), Brannigan and O'Neill (Souths), Mayes and later Junee (Easts), Irvine (Norths), Boyd (Wests), Fred Jones (South Coast), Max Brown and Dennis Ward (Canterbury Bankstown), Allan Thomson (Newcastle), Bill Hamilton (Kurri Kurri).

Only one player, Randall, was a true local junior, though Hamilton came through the junior system, who was in the 1972 grand final team. Manly has relied on bringing talent, young and established, throughout its history from elsewhere. What the Fulton clan were doing was no different except they were bringing them in younger, so they cost less, given the salary cap issue.

Unfortunately the local district does not produce a great number of first grade players. It is what it is. The Trbojevic clan is something of a rarity, just as were Menzies, Toovey, Blake, Gibbs (they dont come along too often). Only the Trbojevics and Parker are local juniors in the present team. Its unrealistic to expect quality first graders in numbers coming from the district. Manly has survived by imports, which may upset pride, but is realistic.

Just look at the very small number of junior comps Manly has won over the years. Fulton was right. With the salary cap limitations and the paucity of local juniors reaching the top, bringing in kids from elsewhere was the most sensible way to keep the side competitive. Sydney City has done it for decades, and successfully as has Manly.

 

[Woodsie]

What the Fulton clan were doing was no different except they were bringing them in younger, so they cost less, given the salary cap issue.

On what basis does bringing them in younger, cost less ? ... Signing a kid at 14 years of age , then paying him, and his costs for 6/7 years before he plays 1st grade, plus all the pathway's support staff and education programs etc ... has to be way more expensive than just buying a ready to go player at 21 years old ..

Its unrealistic to expect quality first graders in numbers coming from the district. Manly has survived by imports, which may upset pride, but is realistic.

No argument there ... it's just when do you import them ... pay the expense of having 20/30 kids in programs .. hoping one, maybe two end up playing First grade .... ?

 

[LeonardCohen]

Hope is good ... but not something a future should be based on ..



Hoping again ... and even if they do stay ... do we get them cheaper? .. are we getting Jake, Tom and Haumole for less than other clubs would pay ?



We will have paid Latu Fainu a million before he plays 1st grade ... if (hoping) he does for Manly ... and then you can guarantee his Manger Tartak will get his contract upgraded to top market value within days ... part of my opinion is that it costs us far more than just buying the finished product ..



That is cyclical ... not a permanent condition ..

Don't get me wrong, I was a Manly junior, and I love having the junior comps and seeing locals come through ... and I would be devastated if we ever stopped supporting them ...

My comments are based solely from a hypothetical Cost V benefit analysis angle ... and as I said ... I have trouble coming up with any benefits ..

I don’t see how hoping a junior stays is any different to hoping an established first grader leaves their current club to sign with Manly? Any recruitment process involves hope, because once a contract is offered, the decision is ultimately down to the player.

The idea of developing juniors is not to ‘get them cheaper’, it’s to get them in the first place. Tom might cost just as much at Manly as he would somewhere else but if he was a Bulldogs junior, I doubt he would be suddenly jump ship to Manly for roughly the same coin and there’d be 10 or so other clubs competing…the junior club has leverage in this instance. And that’s my answer to your initial question - what is the benefit of developing juniors? The answer is that you have a better chance of keeping a good player. Paseka is quoted as saying today “no one wants to leave. They’re Manly juniors, so it’s more special”.

It’s a very relevant question that you ask. I want Manly to keep developing juniors because if our approach shifts to buying players other clubs have developed, I think we will get blown out of the water by clubs with stronger pulling power.

Hypothetically speaking, let’s say we needed a hooker for 2023. The only solution to this problem involves finding another Manese Fainu, not attempting to outbid the Chooks for Brandon Smith. There’s only going to be one winner. I understand that there’s cheaper options than Brandon Smith but I just using this an example of what could happen if we attempt to buy our roster from elsewhere. We’ll be left with the crap after the big clubs take what they want.