Fulton’s West Syd plan success or failure ??

[TheSoaringEagle2023]

Regrettably Woodsie that was before salary caps and when Manly had a bucket load of cash and a clever administrator (who brought in young players from far afield). Fulton (Wollongong), Eadie (Central Coast), Reilly (England), Brannigan and O'Neill (Souths), Mayes and later Junee (Easts), Irvine (Norths), Boyd (Wests), Fred Jones (South Coast), Max Brown and Dennis Ward (Canterbury Bankstown), Allan Thomson (Newcastle), Bill Hamilton (Kurri Kurri).

Only one player, Randall, was a true local junior, though Hamilton came through the junior system, who was in the 1972 grand final team. Manly has relied on bringing talent, young and established, throughout its history from elsewhere. What the Fulton clan were doing was no different except they were bringing them in younger, so they cost less, given the salary cap issue.

Unfortunately the local district does not produce a great number of first grade players. It is what it is. The Trbojevic clan is something of a rarity, just as were Menzies, Toovey, Blake, Gibbs (they dont come along too often). Only the Trbojevics and Parker are local juniors in the present team. Its unrealistic to expect quality first graders in numbers coming from the district. Manly has survived by imports, which may upset pride, but is realistic.

Just look at the very small number of junior comps Manly has won over the years. Fulton was right. With the salary cap limitations and the paucity of local juniors reaching the top, bringing in kids from elsewhere was the most sensible way to keep the side competitive. Sydney City has done it for decades, and successfully as has Manly.

I am not sure why it matters where a player is from at all. To me that is short sighted and rather simplistic

Melbourne famously recruit the player that fits their culture. In many ways considering out relatively small local comp we are not that dissimilar to Melbourne in how we need to recruit to fill gaps in our teams.


The lack of an effective front office for lord knows how long has resulted in a lack of long term thinking and the failure to have a clear culture / identity

We saw this when a number of players were cut / not retained in the Barrett years (Lane, Ramien, Hynes, Gutho, Lussick, Verilles to name a few) without a clear understanding of the "person" we were having on the team.

If i were to speculate on why this is the case you would think there has only been on consistent since 2011 at the club and that is the ownership structure.

It's pretty interesting that Manly can't seem to manage the differences between the Blacktown recruits and the local Manly boys, but Penrith however seem to be able to perfect it.
Not all the Penrith boys are locals. Players like Yeo, Liam Martin, Dylan Edwards are country kids.
Then you have Fischer Harris,Leota,etc who are from NZ.

A peculiar thing I noticed about the Penrith change room is that its separated in two.
One for the Islander boys ie Luai, T'oo , Crichton who play their music and then there is the other ie Yeo,Martin,etc.
Next time when Penrith play and Joey goes in the rooms after they win, you will notice this.

 

[Woodsie]

Hypothetically speaking, let’s say we needed a hooker for 2023. The only solution to this problem involves finding another Manese Fainu, not attempting to outbid the Chooks for Brandon Smith. There’s only going to be one winner. I understand that there’s cheaper options than Brandon Smith but I just using this an example of what could happen if we attempt to buy our roster from elsewhere. We’ll be left with the crap after the big clubs take what they want.

The true skill of recruitment then would be to identify that emerging talent .. rather than the established star ...

The Dolphins have proven my point by putting together a competitive roster from scratch .. and without paying overs ... and still having Marquee player money left ... and all without a junior within Coooeee ..

 

[LeonardCohen]

The true skill of recruitment then would be to identify that emerging talent .. rather than the established star ...

The Dolphins have proven my point by putting together a competitive roster from scratch .. and without paying overs ... and still having Marquee player money left ... and all without a junior within Coooeee ..

Agree with your first point.

If anything, the Dolphins example tends to support the contrary; they haven’t been able to land a marquee player. Their best chance of fielding a premiership contending roster is to develop a young player (which is what are they hoping to do with Katoa) that will eventually be considered a marquee game winning half. Why? Because they haven’t been able to buy one from elsewhere, in spite of having a bottomless pit.

If we put the Dolphins roster in a Manly jumper without the Bennett factor, I reckon they’d be less than competitive .

 

[Bearfax]

On what basis does bringing them in younger, cost less ? ... Signing a kid at 14 years of age , then paying him, and his costs for 6/7 years before he plays 1st grade, plus all the pathway's support staff and education programs etc ... has to be way more expensive than just buying a ready to go player at 21 years old ..



No argument there ... it's just when do you import them ... pay the expense of having 20/30 kids in programs .. hoping one, maybe two end up playing First grade .... ?

Missed the point there Woodsie. I'm not saying overall its cheaper. But it doesn't impinge on the salary cap as heavily as buying an established player. That's the secret of Sydney City's success. Its all about the salary cap and staying within the guidelines. The risk of bringing in a player young and training him is always a gamble. But they take far less of the salary cap than an established player costing a million a season and given they play with a group of young guys with the club causes a tendency for camaraderie, and yes loyalty can develop. Not always, but if someone is happy where they are they are more likely to stay even for a little less. However how the market for players is developing, holding those kids gets increasingly expensive. But what's the alternative? We wouldn't have Fulton or Eadie if we didn't get them early. English soccer and American gridiron already are paying many millions a year for youngsters yet to play major league. That regrettably is the future here and the Latu Fainu issue is a perfect example. Buying established players unless they fill a very necessary position, is wasted money when you have a kid costing a lot less and potentially as good.

 

[Woodsie]

Missed the point there Woodsie. I'm not saying overall its cheaper. But it doesn't impinge on the salary cap as heavily as buying an established player. That's the secret of Sydney City's success. Its all about the salary cap and staying within the guidelines. The risk of bringing in a player young and training him is always a gamble. But they take far less of the salary cap than an established player costing a million a season and given they play with a group of young guys with the club causes a tendency for camaraderie, and yes loyalty can develop. Not always, but if someone is happy where they are they are more likely to stay even for a little less. However how the market for players is developing, holding those kids gets increasingly expensive. But what's the alternative? We wouldn't have Fulton or Eadie if we didn't get them early. English soccer and American gridiron already are paying many millions a year for youngsters yet to play major league. That regrettably is the future here and the Latu Fainu issue is a perfect example. Buying established players unless they fill a very necessary position, is wasted money when you have a kid costing a lot less and potentially as good.

How do they take up less of the salary cap ?

We didn't get Fulton and Eadie early ... Fulton went straight into 1st grade ... and Eadie played one season in reggies before playing 1st grade .

 

[Bearfax]

It's pretty interesting that Manly can't seem to manage the differences between the Blacktown recruits and the local Manly boys, but Penrith however seem to be able to perfect it.
Not all the Penrith boys are locals. Players like Yeo, Liam Martin, Dylan Edwards are country kids.
Then you have Fischer Harris,Leota,etc who are from NZ.

A peculiar thing I noticed about the Penrith change room is that its separated in two.
One for the Islander boys ie Luai, T'oo , Crichton who play their music and then there is the other ie Yeo,Martin,etc.
Next time when Penrith play and Joey goes in the rooms after they win, you will notice this.

Welcome to the inequity of the junior league situation. Teams like Penrith, Parramatta, Canterbury Bankstown, Brisbane etc have a glut of youngsters they can select from. They come to Manly because of opportunity not available because of heavy competition within their local club. Yes those clubs will bring in outsiders but less than Manly usually. Example. Penirth's side this weekend has only four players of the 17 in the first grade side that have played elsewhere. 13 came through the Penrith junior ranks and most from the western region. Yes there are island boys but most were kids raised in the Sydney west.

 

[Bearfax]

How do they take up less of the salary cap ?

We didn't get Fulton and Eadie early ... Fulton went straight into 1st grade ... and Eadie played one season in reggies before playing 1st grade .

Sorry am I reading you right. Of course they cost less on the salary cap because they come in as kids to first grade on a basic salary. Its only when they show serious potential that they get upgraded. Bring someone from outside and they may be on an average salary but more often than not that's because they are middle range footballers. With established players you pay for performance you've seen. With juniors its potential and that costs less. The advantage, as City City learned early, is that, get them young and you can can them initially pay less. Or did they get it wrong?

I was alluding to Fulton and Eadie because they were youngsters yet to make their mark. You're cherry picking Woodsie. What I was trying to point out was back then Manly had the money to challenge other clubs for the big names. For example Manly had to compete for Fulton against St George after they missed out on Langlands. They later missed out on Branson who went to St George, but I think that was a plus for Manly. Teams weren't constrained by caps. Western Suburbs were a million dollar club in the 60s. See how easy it is to fall.

 

[manly al]

Sorry am I reading you right. Of course they cost less on the salary cap because they come in as kids to first grade on a basic salary. Its only when they show serious potential that they get upgraded. Bring someone from outside and they may be on an average salary but more often than not that's because they are middle range footballers. With established players you pay for performance you've seen. With juniors its potential and that costs less. The advantage, as City City learned early, is that, get them young and you can can them initially pay less. Or did they get it wrong?

I was alluding to Fulton and Eadie because they were youngsters yet to make their mark. You're cherry picking Woodsie. What I was trying to point out was back then Manly had the money to challenge other clubs for the big names. For example Manly had to compete for Fulton against St George after they missed out on Langlands. They later missed out on Branson who went to St George, but I think that was a plus for Manly. Teams weren't constrained by caps. Western Suburbs were a million dollar club in the 60s. See how easy it is to fall.

Ironically there were quite a few Manly juniors prominent during one of Manly 's most successful eras and when they had quite a bit of financial clout . Look at that 78 side , Alan Thompson , Terry Randell , John Harvey , Ian Martin , Russel Gartner , Max Krilich , Johnny Gibbs even include Steve Knight who was originally a Manly junior . Not too sure how many clubs have a preponderance of local juniors these days . Maybe the Panthers Probably about 3 or 4 may be the average , Manly still have 3 .

 

[Bearfax]

Ironically there were quite a few Manly juniors prominent during one of Manly 's most successful eras and when they had quite a bit of financial clout . Look at that 78 side , Alan Thompson , Terry Randell , John Harvey , Ian Martin , Russel Gartner , Max Krilich , Johnny Gibbs even include Steve Knight who was originally a Manly junior . Not too sure how many clubs have a preponderance of local juniors these days . Maybe the Panthers Probably about 3 or 4 may be the average , Manly still have 3 .

True enough but it doesn't happen often as demonstrated in our first premiership and of course our present team.

A bit elitist I suppose, but kids on the Northern beaches seem to have more opportunities in education, jobs, than many in the West. Kids in the lower socio-economic upbringings, many Pac Islanders and Indigenous Australia kids, tend not to have the same breadth of options, and sport including rugby league offers them a opportunity of improving their financial status.

Sounds a bit racist and a generalisation, but its just reality that those living in the North and East of Sydney tend to be at a higher socio-economic level and establishing a career offers more than money from sports. I now live in the West after being raised in Dee Why and can see the difference

 

[manly al]

True enough but it doesn't happen often as demonstrated in our first premiership and of course our present team.

A bit elitist I suppose, but kids on the Northern beaches seem to have more opportunities in education, jobs, than many in the West. Kids in the lower socio-economic upbringings, many Pac Islanders and Indigenous Australia kids, tend not to have the same breadth of options, and sport including rugby league offers them a opportunity of improving their financial status.

Sounds a bit racist and a generalisation, but its just reality that those living in the North and East of Sydney tend to be at a higher socio-economic level and establishing a career offers more than money from sports. I now live in the West after being raised in Dee Why and can see the difference

Could be a combination of a few factors Bear but guess that if you are a good enough local junior in any League area and aspire or are retained to stay at your respective club , you will make it . Could be some changed demographic patterns in places like the northern beaches also . Late 70 's era looks like it may have been the exception for international standard local juniors . Premiership level sides in the 80 's say with mainly Phil Daley , Ronson , Stewy Davies and previously Phil Blake. 90 's Tooves , Beaver , Daniel Gartner and John Hopoate . Choc mainly in the new century title sides . Turbo and Jake local top liners now and to a lesser extent Parker .Doesn "t seem like a high volume or array of high performance local [ that is home bred ] juniors coming through right now or in recent years

 

[Woodsie]

I was alluding to Fulton and Eadie because they were youngsters yet to make their mark. You're cherry picking Woodsie.

How in the name of Yogi's left testicle am I cherry picking? .... those were the 2 names YOU brought up ..

For example Manly had to compete for Fulton against St George

Then you say Fulton had yet to make his mark ... and in the very next sentence say we had to compete for him ..

I"m out ..

 

[Bearfax]

How in the name of Yogi's left testicle am I cherry picking? .... those were the 2 names YOU brought up ..



Then you say Fulton had yet to make his mark ... and in the very next sentence say we had to compete for him ..

I"m out ..

Cherry picking related to taking elements out of context to justify a position. I only mentioned Fulton and Eadie as examples where competition for players of talent was heading for the younger talent more and more as it has become now. To win a comp Manly had to buy a team, almost all from outside and it worked. You cant get away with that as easily these days unless you rort the system. The argument was that the vast majority of first graders in the side were not local juniors, which is what the issue is about. I'm suggesting that the Fultons were merely carrying on a tradition of importing talent, but because of the salary cap buying a team of top talent as Manly did was no longer an option. Manly bought big in the 70s and early 80s. In fact during that period they were strong in both grades. No way could Manly do that now even if they had the money. The team that I mentioned, Sydney City, understood this far better which explains how a side with almost no juniors wins so many first grade comps and junior comps. Importing.

 

[NYEagle]

This my first time posting to this thread. I think this thread is offering a really great question, and one I have struggled with, and have given a lot of thought to.

Can we call this thing a success?. Absolutely not - take a look at our table positions through the grades, Disgusting. Blacktown Workers - a joke!

Can we call this a failure?. After what I saw last night - yes

The lack of teamwork, DCE topping the tackle count, individuals obviously not putting in, and no-one chasing kicks or putting bodies on the line. The last two weeks have been inept and pathetic.

Yet you look at the players brought in - nothing wrong with them talent-wise - Ola, Koula, Tuilangi, Schuster, ai-LOL-ai - many of these guys would be superstars at many other teams.

The problem is it's a matter of geography. How many of these guys actually live on the Northern Beaches?. These guys are trecking in from Blacktown, Penrith, Sydney South-West to train, attend events, and play local games - then they go home back to their own communities.
This Sydney West - South West development pathway works great for Penrith and Parra - who played last years grand final ironically and are doing great because their players live in their communities.

The Northern Beaches is a very unique place, very separate from Sydney both South and West of the bridge. In the past many Manly players lived in the area of Dee Why to Narabeen and with that has come success. Now many don't. We have a well worn reputation that our most successful coaches have always been people from the area - now we are recruiting everyone, coaches and players, from outside the area - and how are we doing?.

What's happened is the result of very poor judgement from the Manly club between 2014-2017. After the 2013 grand final we first tried to copy Melbourne by securing 3 million dollar men and a bunch of ordinary bit-part players from all all over the place. How did that go?. Next we tried to copy Penrith by thinking their success in building their club through Sydney West and South-West pathways could be replicated on the Northern Beaches. How is that going?.

Manly will not play in or win a grand final with this system in place. These guys from the West and South West of Sydney can take the great Northern Beaches paycheck and good luck to them, but they are not happy on the Northern Beaches and while they have the talent they do not have the desire to bring success to this club because they are not feeling like they are part of the community. Yet we keep throwing money and extensions at them. Manly will be fringe eight at best, and near spoon at worst as things stand now.

Unfortunately, changes need to happen that I don't think even Mestrov can achieve in the near to medium term so I have a very negative outlook.

NYEagle

 

[Terry Zarsoff]

We’re on the same songsheet.

 

[NYEagle]

Look at the emotion and the comraderie shown by the Dolphins tonight during and after the game. This is not about talent, this is not about money, this is not about the self.

This is what I envy. My goodness, amazing.

NYEagle

 

[mave]

How can the West Sydney plan be a success, when we have so many of our local limited juniors playing, and excelling, elsewhere?

For a club with the size of our junior base, we can't afford to be missing any of them that come through.

They will play for us for comparative "unders" all career, helping the cap for recruits in key positions required at the time.

 

[Terry Zarsoff]

Look at the emotion and the comraderie shown by the Dolphins tonight during and after the game. This is not about talent, this is not about money, this is not about the self.

This is what I envy. My goodness, amazing.

NYEagle

I think it was telling that last week in the 700th 1st grade premiership game played at Stadium Brookvalia, our team turned in a fairly insipid performance.

No sense of the occasion. Says it all.

 

[davohan123]

Look at the emotion and the comraderie shown by the Dolphins tonight during and after the game. This is not about talent, this is not about money, this is not about the self.

This is what I envy. My goodness, amazing.

NYEagle

And the dolphins are playing as a group not a group of individuals.

I hate how we are playing right now and I think there is more going on behind the scenes that the club is not letting on about.

To the original question it has been a total and utter failure this venture and has screwed this club i love for many years to come.

Sadly we are taking over to become the new west tigers.

Dogs Dragons and tigers will take over us in years to come and we are in for some very dark times ahead.

 

[Terry Zarsoff]

The thing I find ironic (and vaguely amusing at the same time) is Bozo the Messiah upon his return in 2015 saying they had to fix the juniors. Then did exactly the opposite.

On a positive note he did set up a little feifdom for the kids. Nice for them, while it lasted.

He did learn at the feet of Arthurson after all, who treated the LC (at least) as his little fiefdom.

 

[JenEagle]

The thing I find ironic (and vaguely amusing at the same time) is Bozo the Messiah upon his return in 2015 saying they had to fix the juniors. Then did exactly the opposite.

On a positive note he did set up a little feifdom for the kids. Nice for them, while it lasted.

He did learn at the feet of Arthurson after all, who treated the LC (at least) as his little fiefdom.

Wow re the godfather. Tell us more please.