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Dylan Walker

Bring back the.... Biff?

Foran 2021 Eagle
Joined
Apr 25, 2019
Messages
5,281
There is a significant difference between having Foran take the 5/8 role and forcing Schuster into a bench position to Foran receiving advice from Johns who was not playing for Manly and tutored DCE and Foran from the side lines.

I'm not suggesting Foran cant give advice and he probably will. No doubt Des, a former 5/8, has also given advice for a few years now. Maybe even Cliffy has had a word or two to Schuster. But that's no where near the same as someone coming into the squad and taking a role, Schuster has been preparing for, for several years and has stayed at Manly for this specific reason.

Jamie Lyon was Manly's 5/8 before Foran came along and unlike Foran today, still had years left in him. Yet he was moved to centre to accommodate Foran's arrival, when he was only 19, which coincidentally is Schuster's age. And Schuster has somewhat more junior recognition than Foran had, before he started first grade and he also has captained junior sides.

Foran was a top class player when he was at Manly, but its easy to forget that, though still talented, he is not the player he was. He could be inspirational as dummy half and no doubt will assist Schuster. But that's a far stretch from taking his place on the field.

As for not having a champion side around him, it is all the more reason Manly gets the most talented kids on the field, which was one of the major complaints most on these sites had last year. No surprise when Des started promoting them late in the year, that the team began to show more attacking flair. It was the juniors that did that, not the older brigade. Experience is important, but youth is needed for vitality, speed, and more initiative. Players like Schuster offer that and he, more than any junior in our squad must be on the field in a play makers role.
Mate....not sure I'd mention Johns as the mentor for Foran

We all know what Johns brought to the club to influence Foz.....
2011 premiership?
 

Bearfax

Grizzly old fart
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Messages
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2011 premiership?

Not sure Biff what you are alluding to here. I have never suggested Foran wasn't an outstanding player and he served Manly well. I wasn't that concerned about him leaving because that's just business, though he should have told Manly earlier instead of waiting for DCE to sign elsewhere costing us at least $300,00 more per season to get him back, and then sniping at the club. But that's history. If he plays well for Manly next season great. But again I reiterate, would you have risked losing Foran back in 2009 when he first started by insisting Lyon plays 5/8. Lyon could have continued in that spot, which was his natural position for the next four of five years. Would that be smart thinking? Foran is a talented player, no question, and if he plays dummy half, it could be something that sets the game alight with DCE and Schuster on each side. Play him at 5/8 and if he doesnt get injured, he'll do OK, but not like 2011. And Schuster ends in the forwards and by years end looking for another club that appreciates his ball playing skills. Do the maths. Foran for maybe a year. Schuster for perhaps ten. What's best for Manly?
 

Bring back the.... Biff?

Foran 2021 Eagle
Joined
Apr 25, 2019
Messages
5,281
Not sure Biff what you are alluding to here. I have never suggested Foran wasn't an outstanding player and he served Manly well. I wasn't that concerned about him leaving because that's just business, though he should have told Manly earlier instead of waiting for DCE to sign elsewhere costing us at least $300,00 more per season to get him back, and then sniping at the club. But that's history. If he plays well for Manly next season great. But again I reiterate, would you have risked losing Foran back in 2009 when he first started by insisting Lyon plays 5/8. Lyon could have continued in that spot, which was his natural position for the next four of five years. Would that be smart thinking? Foran is a talented player, no question, and if he plays dummy half, it could be something that sets the game alight with DCE and Schuster on each side. Play him at 5/8 and if he doesnt get injured, he'll do OK, but not like 2011. And Schuster ends in the forwards and by years end looking for another club that appreciates his ball playing skills. Do the maths. Foran for maybe a year. Schuster for perhaps ten. What's best for Manly?
I was replying to nice beaver.. i have no idea why you're post is there haha end of the day both of us have no clue ehat dessie boy will do. Speculation is all.. i think foran will start you think Schuster will. Imo des will pick the best player for the job, i dont see why Schuster cant come off the bench and wreck havoc like barba used to off the bench. Kinda annoying really.. not knowing. Long wait to find out :( what id really like is foran to 6 jake to prop and Schuster to 13
 

Bring back the.... Biff?

Foran 2021 Eagle
Joined
Apr 25, 2019
Messages
5,281
Johns didn't join the Manly coaching staff until 2012 as far as I know?

Regardless, I think you know what I am referring to.

I'm not a fan of the Foran signing at all. But I hope he has a great season and proves me 100% wrong.
Maybe he did join after 2011.. im sure someone on here knows. If Schuster starts then we have foran as depth. Over croker my friend you should rejoice
 

Bearfax

Grizzly old fart
Joined
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Messages
6,413
I was replying to nice beaver.. i have no idea why you're post is there haha end of the day both of us have no clue ehat dessie boy will do. Speculation is all.. i think foran will start you think Schuster will. Imo des will pick the best player for the job, i dont see why Schuster cant come off the bench and wreck havoc like barba used to off the bench. Kinda annoying really.. not knowing. Long wait to find out :( what id really like is foran to 6 jake to prop and Schuster to 13

In fact Barba said he thought Schuster was outstanding and was most impressed while he was on the field. Schuster wasn't great in my opinion, but he did enough to suggest he's a natural for the position. Pragmatism. Good speculators know when to make the right decision . In recent years Manly's speculators, in my opinion have been flawed, and that's not retrospective. To challenge this argument, one needs to examine results, and this is a results based game. I suggest you also look at Foran's results over recent years. Less than 35% win rate, whilst he's on the field 2017-20. Doesn't say everything of course but he's not the Messiah, he's just a talented player past his prime, still with something to offer but not at the risk of a potential top liner on the rise..

Just because selectors have worked or played for the club doesn't make them great speculators. The only thing that makes a speculator superior is total dispassion, utility, and enough knowledge to make a good educate guess. Love of a player's past efforts in earlier years, is not dispassion.

In my opinion given last years effort, I don't think Des made good selection decisions. In fact I think his effort was poor. Not to say he doesn't have the capacity for good decision making but its very different when you have a great stable to choose from. A good coach knows how to use average talent too. He didn't this year when the pressure was on through injuries. Hopefully he's learned a few things, as his selection of youngsters began to show positive signs late in the year, as so many here were arguing for. May amaze you but he is just a man and he has his own biases and flaws in judgement as has the rest of us. I just hope he steps back and looks at this logically from a long term perspective. He's not God, he's just a man. Time to stop idolising him and past champions and look to the future, pragmatically.

Now you may think I'm being somewhat above my rank. But I've been trained to be pragmatic. So I see things that way. I'm also not God, but I am pragmatic, not bound to past adulations. Look to today and the future, not to yesterdays glories. I actually want to see Manly win, not just see some champion of the past try to recover past glories
 

Bring back the.... Biff?

Foran 2021 Eagle
Joined
Apr 25, 2019
Messages
5,281
In fact Barba said he thought Schuster was outstanding and was most impressed while he was on the field. Schuster wasn't great in my opinion, but he did enough to suggest he's a natural for the position. Pragmatism. Good speculators know when to make the right decision . In recent years Manly's speculators, in my opinion have been flawed, and that's not retrospective. To challenge this argument, one needs to examine results, and this is a results based game. I suggest you also look at Foran's results over recent years. Less than 35% win rate, whilst he's on the field 2017-20. Doesn't say everything of course but he's not the Messiah, he's just a talented player past his prime, still with something to offer but not at the risk of a potential top liner on the rise..

Just because selectors have worked or played for the club doesn't make them great speculators. The only thing that makes a speculator superior is total dispassion, utility, and enough knowledge to make a good educate guess. Love of a player's past efforts in earlier years, is not dispassion.

In my opinion given last years effort, I don't think Des made good selection decisions. In fact I think his effort was poor. Not to say he doesn't have the capacity for good decision making but its very different when you have a great stable to choose from. A good coach knows how to use average talent too. He didn't this year when the pressure was on through injuries. Hopefully he's learned a few things, as his selection of youngsters began to show positive signs late in the year, as so many here were arguing for. May amaze you but he is just a man and he has his own biases and flaws in judgement as has the rest of us. I just hope he steps back and looks at this logically from a long term perspective. He's not God, he's just a man. Time to stop idolising him and past champions and look to the future, pragmatically.

Now you may think I'm being somewhat above my rank. But I've been trained to be pragmatic. So I see things that way. I'm also not God, but I am pragmatic, not bound to past adulations. Look to today and the future, not to yesterdays glories. I actually want to see Manly win, not just see some champion of the past try to recover past glories
You mean Benji. I dont see why Schuster couldn't be our x factor off the bench. Foran is only playing 1 season and imo we are better with him. You spoke of his win rate. He played for the dogs and the only time they looked good was when he played. Also check dces win rate this season
 

manlyfan76

Parra Trolls are the best.
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So we don't have a 80 min hooker and people are suggesting we waste two interchanges on the 5/8 position by swapping the shoe for foz twice in a game. Plus swap 9 for 14 . That's three interchanges burnt by a team that has not shown it can adjust to six again footy and that has injury prone fullback and Walker (centre?) God help us if a back gets injured.

That's potentially four interchanges burnt while other teams have used zero.

So looks like Jake is playing 80mins every week as is our backrow. Then other benchies are filling in for centre or fullback due to injuries.

Mind blown.
 
Last edited:

Shoe1

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Jul 14, 2010
Messages
11,805
You mean Benji. I dont see why Schuster couldn't be our x factor off the bench. Foran is only playing 1 season and imo we are better with him. You spoke of his win rate. He played for the dogs and the only time they looked good was when he played. Also check dces win rate this season
Benji and barba are the same person according to a former nrl chairman
 

Shoe1

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Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
11,805
So we don't have a 80 min hooker and people are suggesting we waste two interchanges on the 5/8 position by swapping the shoe for foz twice in a game. Plus swap 9 for 14 . That's three interchanges burnt by a team that has not shown it can adjust to six again footy and that has injury prone fullback and Walker (centre?) God help us if a back gets injured.

That's potentially four interchanges burnt while other teams have used zero.

So looks like Jake is playing 80mins every week as is our backrow. Then other benchies are filling in for centre or fullback due to injuries.

Mind blown.
I like how qld kept 2 halves and 2 dummy halves on the field sharing duties in attack. No need to interchange them.
 

manlyfan76

Parra Trolls are the best.
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I like how qld kept 2 halves and 2 dummy halves on the field sharing duties in attack. No need to interchange them.
It happened in a few games this year.
I just think it's stupid to use two interchanges on the six position, when we don't have an 89min hooker.
Props will use four changes on their own.
 

Bearfax

Grizzly old fart
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Messages
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You mean Benji. I dont see why Schuster couldn't be our x factor off the bench. Foran is only playing 1 season and imo we are better with him. You spoke of his win rate. He played for the dogs and the only time they looked good was when he played. Also check dces win rate this season
Actually I meant Benji. Dumb of me.

It seems to me far more logical with a body not as durable as it was, that Foran off the bench is far more logical, and I'll explain why.

He may have looked good playing at the Dogs, looking good doesn't win games and I suspect being so much in your favour, you looked for anything he did positively.

If you look at the results of the past 4 years Auckland 2016 won 38% of their games but only 29% when Foran was on the field. Bulldogs 2017 won 38% of their games but only 25% when Foran was there. Bulldogs 2019 won 40% and 43% when Foran was there and Bulldogs 2020 15% but 14% when Foran was on the field. Its of course just stats and there are many variables to consider, but it does imply that his impact was at best little more effective than if he wasn't on the field. May have looked good, but didn't translate to wins. He had a better win ratio in 2015 at Parramatta but then he played only 9 games. Thing is, his body wasn't up to the rigors of full games. That's now pretty obvious. That's why a part time hookers role is ideal. Can still use his skill tool box, but doesn't have to last out the full 80 minutes.

I realise you have a great affection for Foran as is obvious in your avatar. No question he has been a top player and sad to see his body give out on him. My suspicion is that Des brought him over, because he was really cheap (with a TPA attached) and he was desperate for someone to handle dummy half with Fainu unavailable and Levi shown the door. To me its a one year quick fix with a player with unquestioned skill, but on the decline body wise. Perfect fit. Seems logical to me, with a potential star 5/8 on the rise. Of course nothing I say will alter your opinion, and fair enough. Good luck to you. We'll just have to wait until the season starts to see what the enigmatic Des decides. I'll be surprised if Foran is 5/8, but I am quite enthused with his likely position at dummy half where he can do a Cam Smith and use his nous and good service to decide which direction to direct the attack. To me that's an ideal fit.
 

manlyfan76

Parra Trolls are the best.
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Actually I meant Benji. Dumb of me.

It seems to me far more logical with a body not as durable as it was, that Foran off the bench is far more logical, and I'll explain why.

He may have looked good playing at the Dogs, looking good doesn't win games and I suspect being so much in your favour, you looked for anything he did positively.

If you look at the results of the past 4 years Auckland 2016 won 38% of their games but only 29% when Foran was on the field. Bulldogs 2017 won 38% of their games but only 25% when Foran was there. Bulldogs 2019 won 40% and 43% when Foran was there and Bulldogs 2020 15% but 14% when Foran was on the field. Its of course just stats and there are many variables to consider, but it does imply that his impact was at best little more effective than if he wasn't on the field. May have looked good, but didn't translate to wins. He had a better win ratio in 2015 at Parramatta but then he played only 9 games. Thing is, his body wasn't up to the rigors of full games. That's now pretty obvious. That's why a part time hookers role is ideal. Can still use his skill tool box, but doesn't have to last out the full 80 minutes.

I realise you have a great affection for Foran as is obvious in your avatar. No question he has been a top player and sad to see his body give out on him. My suspicion is that Des brought him over, because he was really cheap (with a TPA attached) and he was desperate for someone to handle dummy half with Fainu unavailable and Levi shown the door. To me its a one year quick fix with a player with unquestioned skill, but on the decline body wise. Perfect fit. Seems logical to me, with a potential star 5/8 on the rise. Of course nothing I say will alter your opinion, and fair enough. Good luck to you. We'll just have to wait until the season starts to see what the enigmatic Des decides. I'll be surprised if Foran is 5/8, but I am quite enthused with his likely position at dummy half where he can do a Cam Smith and use his nous and good service to decide which direction to direct the attack. To me that's an ideal fit.
I'd like ANYBODY to show me a game in 2020 where he was effective for 80 mins.
He faded in every single game, all his good things he did was before 60 mins -and I'm being generous there. The last 20 he was invisible.
 

Manly Tragic

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Picking players out of position is not smart and is usually desperation due to injuries. In my view Croker doesn't make the 17 when all hands are on deck and Cust only as a 14 whilst Fainu is out or Foran is unavailable. If Foran is not up to playing dummy half he should not have been signed. I hope when Des was resigned there were clear KPI's and expectations about giving young talent time on the field. I agree with Bearfax that our coach's decisions last year were disappointing and telling. Lets not kid ourselves, notwithstanding injuries we were so far off the pace last year it was cringe worthy. The lack of depth last year was due to a terrible injury toll, but it was also a product of poor recruitment and questionable resignings. This lack of depth last year was aggravated by not using all of the players in the top 30. The whole joint needs a shake up and a reboot. Des was a great player and a great coach and Foz was a great player. Its what happens now that will generate success not what happened in the distant past. You don't get faster as you get older and the modern game is getting faster and faster.
 

eagleron

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Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Messages
1,030
Hope you are okay mate ... and that the nurses are cute ...
Cheers mate, the wound became infected because they removed the drain too soon so I look like being stuck in here for a while, and yes the nurses in here are gorgeous most of them, if I was 50 yrs younger I'd get myself in all kinds of trouble, as long as the missus said it was ok of course ;=)
 

Shane4500

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Messages
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Cheers mate, the wound became infected because they removed the drain too soon so I look like being stuck in here for a while, and yes the nurses in here are gorgeous most of them, if I was 50 yrs younger I'd get myself in all kinds of trouble, as long as the missus said it was ok of course ;=)
Hope you get better buddy
 

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