Attributing blame

DCE's doesn't always direct the game well like a half of his caliber and status should, that part of his game is inconsistent but improving. Manly would benefit during a good go forward set from his long kicking game when it is on song though.
Yes that is true...

When he is on-song, he leads the kick chase as well, which makes a huge difference.
 
Both sides of the debate are correct, it's more about which way you decide to lean as the main reason(if you are the coach) and once you decide harness all your focus on getting that side of the game done well.

You have forwards who might be racking up good stats but are they numbers of dominance, not all go forward metres are of the same quality and impact, not all tackles are valued the same etc etc.

Obviously fatigue in the forwards will make it much easier to be dominated and much harder to play with an intensity that has impact, will also impact the straightness and enthusiasm of their go forward runs and pushing up with the lead runners.

Other times lacking in the halves places more pressure on the forwards to create, or ballplay, or sidestep instead of running hard and straight(keeping it simple) which digs a deeper hole as this then doesn't allow the halves space or time. Considering our halves are inexperienced, lack quality long kicking games and have less class from the outset they need even more "time" and space than standard for quality decision making.

I would not have been picking Elgey in at half, i want probing cheeky second phase type players that take on the line, have footwork and limiting the deep lateral spreads until the second half, we have the forwards to create this platform for sharp cheeky halves who have footwork.(i'm talking in general when there is a lack of troops in the middle of the season/origin period for less lateral play to start with)

Have our power forwards play hard and straight and told straight up don't even consider any ball playing or side ways running until the middle of the second half if Manly are still in the grind.(Now this lack of ball movement will be an issue if that is your limits but during times of injury depletion, inexperienced young halves and playing against poor opposition during Origin time such a simple,direct, predictable disciplined playing style can grind you out wins)

I mean the interaction between Cade and Fainu for their try in the second half was a good indicator of how a simple cut back inside to create straightness and pass back in easily broke up a poor defensive team in the second half.---(That is why i wanted Elgey off and either Api or Fainu pushed in at half)
Exactly what I said to a mate yesterday. Des screwed up bigtime in that 2nd half. We needed AFB, Marty, Paseka and Perrett all on with 25min to go. Elgey off and Api at 6. Pounding it straight up the middle with their tiring defense would've allowed plenty of offload 2nd phase play with Cust, Fainu, Api and Walker taking advantage. For the life of I don't know why Des left Paseka till last 8 min and Perrett not at all. Tactical mistake that cost us the game.
 
Exactly what I said to a mate yesterday. Des screwed up bigtime in that 2nd half. We needed AFB, Marty, Paseka and Perrett all on with 25min to go. Elgey off and Api at 6. Pounding it straight up the middle with their tiring defense would've allowed plenty of offload 2nd phase play with Cust, Fainu, Api and Walker taking advantage. For the life of I don't know why Des left Paseka till last 8 min and Perrett not at all. Tactical mistake that cost us the game.
Just on Paseka. Was he injured earlier in the season, or just not cutting it at Blacktown? From the limited time he did get, he looked damned impressive. He is one big human.
 
Seems our form has nosedived since DW came back into the team. Could it be that not every player is onboard with what happened and the judgement made ??
A similar situation happened last year too when he came back into the team then for the first time in Round 5 against the Titans. We lost that game (38 - 20) plus the next 4 (12 - 38 Tigers, Eels 44 - 10, 12 - 18 Knights, Roosters 22 - 20) and didn't win another game until the Double Header in Round 10 when we beat the Broncos 38 - 24. I just hope that the same losing streak doesn't resurrect itself again even though we won the first game that he was back this year against the Sharks in Round 10.
 
Knee injury like most big boppers 😕
He’s had a few games to impress after the injury and didn’t do anything in reserves. Got a chance Thursday due to origin / injury and looked good in that 10 minutes. Have to be careful judging a fresh guy against tired players in the 70 th minute but geez it would be good if he could reach his potential. We are short big bodies after Sipley down andcTangles gone.
 
Exactly what I said to a mate yesterday. Des screwed up bigtime in that 2nd half. We needed AFB, Marty, Paseka and Perrett all on with 25min to go. Elgey off and Api at 6. Pounding it straight up the middle with their tiring defense would've allowed plenty of offload 2nd phase play with Cust, Fainu, Api and Walker taking advantage. For the life of I don't know why Des left Paseka till last 8 min and Perrett not at all. Tactical mistake that cost us the game.
In fairness to Des Fainu's nose injury may have limited his options also.

But in saying that i wouldn't even have started with Elgey as my plan for the week.(not a hindsight call)
 
Fainu's abilities are over exaggerated for now, too many see the odd bit of flash and think his entire game is perfect.
Well @Ryan picked it a few weeks ago. Manase has a few weaknesses in his game but it is his 1st full year playing and I suppose we have to expect these young guys aren't conditioned fulltime top graders yet.
 
Well @Ryan picked it a few weeks ago. Manase has a few weaknesses in his game but it is his 1st full year playing and I suppose we have to expect these young guys aren't conditioned fulltime top graders yet.
Dead right Mick. He has played twenty or so games, is still a kid , plays in one of the toughest positions on the field and has two or three quiet games when we were totally and utterly starved of the ball when he came on - and the knives are out. Not sure if it was you who mentioned it in another thread but I would love to see the stats on points scored when he’s on the field to when he isn’t this season.It would be ridiculous.

And I reckon he proved his toughness last week !
 
Dead right Mick. He has played twenty or so games, is still a kid , plays in one of the toughest positions on the field and has two or three quiet games when we were totally and utterly starved of the ball when he came on - and the knives are out. Not sure if it was you who mentioned it in another thread but I would love to see the stats on points scored when he’s on the field to when he isn’t this season.It would be ridiculous.

And I reckon he proved his toughness last week !
The secret to happiness is to be easily pleased, i guess you are closer to that than me.

Long way to go in my books especially attitude wise.

I would take Api and his flaws/weaknesses over Fainu any day of the week, seeing Fainu walk to dummy half in the attacking zone tells me a lot.

Classy player with plenty of upside but i really do fear he might be happy being a 20-30min spark interchange type who has endless potential but never really lives up to it consistently.
 
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Classy player with plenty of upside but i really do fear he might be happy being a 20-30min spark interchange type who has endless potential but never really lives up to it consistently.

And that is perfectly fine.
If he only gets 30 minute spark player money, and everyone goes into the season with eyes wide open.
That combination of a solid 50 minute hooker and MF works for me.
 
The secret to happiness is to be easily pleased, i guess you are closer to that than me.

Long way to go in my books especially attitude wise.

I would take Api and his flaws/weaknesses over Fainu any day of the week, seeing Fainu walk to dummy half in the attacking zone tells me a lot.

Classy player with plenty of upside but i really do fear he might be happy being a 20-30min spark interchange type who has endless potential but never really lives up to it consistently.

Long way to go lol. Sherlock Holmes is amongst us!! He a twenty year old who basically went straight to first grade from twenties to play against behemoths every week!

It’s totally opposite mate. You are too hard to please.It’s about expectations. You judging a bloke on twenty games in his position is totally ridiculous.

Damien Cook is the current Australian hooker , is destroying sides and is the best hooker I’ve seen since Smith and Buderus.He played THREE seasons of reserve grade for Saints and Canterbury. 3 seasons!!Lucky you weren’t judging him.Jake Friend was in and out of the Roosters side early on.Matt Ballin played a heap of reserve grade at half and second row early on. Danny Buderus was a half utility like Fainu who took quite a while to adapt to hooker.

Just as some homework can you name a young hooker since Smith who just jumped straight into stardom? . It’s a tough gig. Takes time, especially with the massive size of players today.Farah in the early 000s is probably the closest and look at the **** he cops on here.In my book Fainu has looked as good as any young hooker in terms of potential I’ve seen for a long time. Some of his stuff is sublime and can’t be taught. He’ll make errors and have slack periods but blind Freddy can see the talent. And blokes with no desire don’t play like he did Thursday spouting blood like a fountain.

As for API after half a dozen seasons he still can’t pass and has no kicking game.You are happy to cut a six year veteran a break for his many flaws but not a kid with a few games under his belt. Sounds really logical. He is tough as nails and I love him as team man like all of us but he can’t get a side around the park properly and never will. Not sure if youve noticed the last four years but we are a rabble in the red zone, and a lot of it stems from his lack of class as a creative rake.Anyone who wants another four seasons of that has rocks in their head. If it ain’t Fainu then it needs to be someone else .Des has already showed his hand about who he thinks is best via minutes played and the points scored when Fainus on the field back him up totally. I’d love to know the actual points.He is learning and making mistakes but that’s how it works in first grade.

As for walking to dummy half , give me that any day over a bloke charging around like an eveready bunny with no idea.Whats the big deal about running there? Api races there and other than the odd dart what do we get.? Loopy passes and zero kicks with great defence and great attitude as a saving grace. Unfortunately that doesn’t get you to top four. Look at the top 4 now. Smith Cook Hodgson Friend ( when he returns ). All have great running passing and kicking games, not blokes who dart and tackle well and that’s it.And all don’t rush. All look like players with time.We need to find one so I’d be hoping Fainu develops or we buy one quickly.

So if walking tells you a lot then I suggest you take a good look at the greatest hooker of all time in Cam Smith. He walks everywhere summing up the situation. NEVER gets out of a jog trot and could play in a dinner suit . Good players make it look like they have plenty of time and use that time to think. Not race like a madman to dummy half,pick the ball up , stand for a second then pass - like our current nine. What we have with the two sharing is working ok now and APIs toughness is useful while the kid develops.In 2020 we need Fainu as the main man with API preferably relieving off the bench if we have the cap space.

Twenty games and you have a young bloke with a lot of talent( and showing it ) pegged as being no good in a position history shows as needing plenty of development time.We are not talking about centres and wingers here who can shine immediately and the real good ones usually do. This position is as tough as it comes physically and requires playmaker skills. Who knows. He may fail.But twenty games doesn’t tell you that.Damien Cook says hi.
 
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Personal pride is a wonderful thing .... what I have never understood is the need for people to put one player down to somehow boost their opinion of or relative performance of another ...

Both Api and Fainu are very good players and both have strengths and weaknesses ... but we are fortunate to have both of them available at the moment ... let's enjoy it while we can .... we wont always be so blessed ....

Beware ... for mine it will be a case of ..... you don't know what you've got til it's gone ....

Pss ... age wise and the conection of Fainu's younger siblings make Fainu the better long term option .... but I would be holding on to "beast Api" for as long as I could ...
 
Long way to go lol. Sherlock Holmes is amongst us!! He a twenty year old who basically went straight to first grade from twenties to play against behemoths every week!

It’s totally opposite mate. You are too hard to please.It’s about expectations. You judging a bloke on twenty games in his position is totally ridiculous.

Damien Cook is the current Australian hooker , is destroying sides and is the best hooker I’ve seen since Smith and Buderus.He played THREE seasons of reserve grade for Saints and Canterbury. 3 seasons!!Lucky you weren’t judging him.Jake Friend was in and out of the Roosters side early on.Matt Ballin played a heap of reserve grade at half and second row early on. Danny Buderus was a half utility like Fainu who took quite a while to adapt to hooker.

Just as some homework can you name a young hooker since Smith who just jumped straight into stardom? . It’s a tough gig. Takes time, especially with the massive size of players today.Farah in the early 000s is probably the closest and look at the **** he cops on here.In my book Fainu has looked as good as any young hooker in terms of potential I’ve seen for a long time. Some of his stuff is sublime and can’t be taught. He’ll make errors and have slack periods but blind Freddy can see the talent. And blokes with no desire don’t play like he did Thursday spouting blood like a fountain.

As for API after half a dozen seasons he still can’t pass and has no kicking game.You are happy to cut a six year veteran a break for his many flaws but not a kid with a few games under his belt. Sounds really logical. He is tough as nails and I love him as team man like all of us but he can’t get a side around the park properly and never will. Not sure if youve noticed the last four years but we are a rabble in the red zone, and a lot of it stems from his lack of class as a creative rake.Anyone who wants another four seasons of that has rocks in their head. If it ain’t Fainu then it needs to be someone else .Des has already showed his hand about who he thinks is best via minutes played and the points scored when Fainus on the field back him up totally. I’d love to know the actual points.He is learning and making mistakes but that’s how it works in first grade.



As for walking to dummy half , give me that any day over a bloke charging around like an eveready bunny with no idea.Whats the big deal about running there? Api races there and other than the odd dart what do we get.? Loopy passes and zero kicks with great defence and great attitude as a saving grace. Unfortunately that doesn’t get you to top four. Look at the top 4 now. Smith Cook Hodgson Friend ( when he returns ). All have great running passing and kicking games, not blokes who dart and tackle well and that’s it.And all don’t rush. All look like players with time.We need to find one so I’d be hoping Fainu develops or we buy one quickly.

So if walking tells you a lot then I suggest you take a good look at the greatest hooker of all time in Cam Smith. He walks everywhere summing up the situation. NEVER gets out of a jog trot and could play in a dinner suit . Good players make it look like they have plenty of time and use that time to think. Not race like a madman to dummy half,pick the ball up , stand for a second then pass - like our current nine. What we have with the two sharing is working ok now and APIs toughness is useful while the kid develops.In 2020 we need Fainu as the main man with API preferably relieving off the bench if we have the cap space.

Twenty games and you have a young bloke with a lot of talent( and showing it ) pegged as being no good in a position history shows as needing plenty of development time.We are not talking about centres and wingers here who can shine immediately and the real good ones usually do. This position is as tough as it comes physically and requires playmaker skills. Who knows. He may fail.But twenty games doesn’t tell you that.Damien Cook says hi.
As stated many times i see the flaws in Api's game in terms of weak ball distribution (has improved this year so has Fainu) lacking a kicking game and over complicating the simple with no look passes that go astray.

The issue i have with Fainu is a lack of overall energy, defensive intensity,(that does not necessarily mean he has to be as aggressive) spark and attitude, he switches off.

The walking to dummy half was from a few weeks ago where he didn't even make it to hooker, we then run the short side and i think we score through Parker(might be wrong)----yes hookers walk to marker at non critical times or a routine set of six but in this instance it is not good enough.

Walking around in the defensive line exhausted or looking lethargic after 5mins with hands on hips is not a good attitude to show the rest of the defensive line from an interchange player.

I know Fainu is young with plenty of potential and upside, all i am doing is saying it how it presently is----no more no less. Yes i agree every young player requires patience otherwise the turn over of players would be every second week with the inconsistent performances but that doesn't mean i can't be critical either.
 
And that is perfectly fine.
If he only gets 30 minute spark player money, and everyone goes into the season with eyes wide open.
That combination of a solid 50 minute hooker and MF works for me.
It's fine for now but i fear Fainu will limit himself to being the secondary hooker and happy with that---stuck in a comfort zone.
 
I must say we look smoother and more cohesive when Fainu is at dummy half but our defence is tighter in the middle when Api is on. I like the way Des uses them and it generally works well. Last week Fainu's injury threw a spanner in the works. Api is at times rocks and diamonds but so was one of my favorites - Cliffy.
 

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