Attributing blame

[Budgie]

His father is considered the toughest player of all time by many. I think he was sent of 16 times in his career.

You know some kids live off the glory of their more talented dads. Often reaching heights there ability couldn't carry them to.

John? I know him!

 

[Woodsie]

Not sure what game you were watching Woodside but Taupau’s stats last night were pretty good!!! 140m plus, 30 tackles plus, offloads plus.....not sure what you expect. AFB was amazing as were the rest of the forwards, unfortunately our halves & backs let us down!

They were great last week too .... but yet ... we still lost .... our forwards have been bitch slapped and disrespected by the bottom 2 packs 2 weeks in a row...

Max, I know I am old school .. but the game is still won and lost in the pigs ..... line speed, play the ball and clean ball to the backs while the defense is still back peddling is still dependent on winning the ruck and wrestle .... not clocking up metres ...

Yes AFB and Marty are wonderful ... but I doubt they even say a word to each other on the field ... we have 6 good individual forwards .... what we don't have is a pack attitude ....

Just an old buggers opinion ....

 

[HappilyManly]

Last night's Rabbids' game highlights the heart of our problems and the way the game is structured in this era.

The hooker rules

The decision making and speed of his pass are the key.

Rabbids pack is superior to Parra's, but take out their top notch hooker and the Team could not capitalize in their strength and skill

That's why sCam and Cook lead their Teams to the top each year

The lack of a classy 5/8th, (which Manly have suffered with since Fiz and Green left) negated the skill of the Rabbids' top notch half back 😎

Manly needs to speed up Api's /Nase's decision making and darts out of dummy half

 

[Woodsie]

What an idiot, Marty wasn't at his best but was far from average. AFB was just about the best player on the park. 24 hit ups for 225m and 30 odd tackles. He was taking it too them and carrying defenders, he was fired up

Yes he was ... but individuals don't win forward battles ... the number of hit ups and tackles are finite .... every one he took means somebody else didn't take one .... they are not thinking, playing, hunting or winning like a pack of forwards ....

 

[manly al]

Hardly rate that Panthers pack on Thursday night as an ordinary pack but they did seem to gain the upper hand in the forwards arm wrestle [ with the exception of Siro and A F B ] for the majority of the match . Think that predominately for two weeks in a row it can be more attributed to a below par and sub standard kicking and field position outcome for Manly that put them on the back foot regularly apart from the obvious ordinary direction from our halves for a good portion of the game . Naturally hard to maintain an up tempo intensity for every N R L game but having the three highest paid players for Manly on the sidelines certainly does not help either

 

[ricardo]

If you want to attribute blame in this game, rewind it and just watch the Penrith forwards.

EVERY TACKLE was hit and drive back. Every tackle.

They played very well, including their new guys Liam Martin and the hooker I've forgotten the name of. Fisher-Harris, Yeo, Tamou, Frankenstein all played great footy and stood up.

They also had Luai who is much better at breaking games open than many halves short of Munster, Cody and a handful of others. Much better than Cleary. Luai and Maloney is their ideal halves combination.

And you know what it was a close game, even with a hooker with a broken nose and only using 2 and a half props we got close (and even looked good in parts).

We came up against decent footballers who were under the pump from the media and coach and stood up. If they play like that all season they will come close to making the 8.

We dont need to navel gaze. We need to dust ourselves off and get ready for round 13!!

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Mid season slump, not much of a shock especially with so many of our leading players missing. May go on for a while longer yet! But the wins we racked up early are like gold. There is time to regroup and, hopefully closer to full strength, make a charge towards the top 8 over the back end of the season.

 

[Woodsie]

Manly needs to speed up Api's /Nase's decision making and darts out of dummy half

I agree, but 50% of the situation is the responsibility of the runners .. for example watch SCamSmith .... he rules the ruck with an iron fist ... doesn't have to think ... he has had 13 years to train and drill every new player in the team to give him an option on both sides of the ruck and time their runs .... he never has to look up to see if someone is there .... if they are not they won't be there next week ...

Happily .. our runners have to improve their timing as well ...

 

[Woodsie]

PSS .... just like in soccer... 90% of the time it is the movement of the players without the ball that make the biggest difference ... putting defenders in two minds, causing indecision and creating spaces

 

[HappilyManly]

I agree, but 50% of the situation is the responsibility of the runners .. for example watch SCamSmith .... he rules the ruck with an iron fist ... doesn't have to think ... he has had 13 years to train and drill every new player in the team to give him an option on both sides of the ruck and time their runs .... he never has to look up to see if someone is there .... if they are not they won't be there next week ...

Happily .. our runners have to improve their timing as well ...

But the Rabbids' runners were there last night, only Cook was not and the better pack was rendered ineffective

 

[eagerbeaver]

But the Rabbids' runners were there last night, only Cook was not and the better pack was rendered ineffective

They were also missing Walker (arguably form player of the comp) and Murray - quickest play the ball in the comp.

 

[niccipops]

LG is an ESL star in the making.

He has all the skills but every time he got the ball there was a moment of indecision 😎

I think the Elgey kid needs a sports pshycologist. He just doesn't believe in himself. He seems over-awed to be playing with and against first graders. I'd recommend the 'badass mother' treatment from Cool Runnings for him.
Maybe Marty can be Kane's 'Yul Brynner'.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

This below was his debut year. Then he did his ACL in the first training session for 2016 and missed the whole year, and has yet to reestablish himself. A work in progress.

 

[Snake]

I wish people would factor fatigue into a contest. The forward battle is not simply won due to the forwards. The halves help the forwards win the battle by kicking to the corners to turn the opposition pack around and tire them out. Also getting repeat sets tire the opposition pack out, etc. Building pressure is huge. When you see our forwards roll the opposition and get the upper hand, it is because we have controlled possession, kicked to corners and we have more energy than the opposition.

Two forward packs are not like for like. Fatigue can make an ordinary pack look like they are playing all over the opposition. Ruck and wrestle are the result of fatigue as well. Go and play a game in the forwards and see how much energy you have to get a quick play-the-ball when you are gassed from too much defending and rucking it off your own line and turning and running to get back onside when the kick has gone over the fullbacks head to start the set.

See how much energy you have to win the ruck when your halves keep giving the ball back to the opposition on the 30-40m line consistently all night.

 

[Bearfax]

If DCE had been playing that game we would have won. If TT was playing we would have won by 12-18. There was no attack in the back line.

 

[Technical Coach]

Both sides of the debate are correct, it's more about which way you decide to lean as the main reason(if you are the coach) and once you decide harness all your focus on getting that side of the game done well.

You have forwards who might be racking up good stats but are they numbers of dominance, not all go forward metres are of the same quality and impact, not all tackles are valued the same etc etc.

Obviously fatigue in the forwards will make it much easier to be dominated and much harder to play with an intensity that has impact, will also impact the straightness and enthusiasm of their go forward runs and pushing up with the lead runners.

Other times lacking in the halves places more pressure on the forwards to create, or ballplay, or sidestep instead of running hard and straight(keeping it simple) which digs a deeper hole as this then doesn't allow the halves space or time. Considering our halves are inexperienced, lack quality long kicking games and have less class from the outset they need even more "time" and space than standard for quality decision making.

I would not have been picking Elgey in at half, i want probing cheeky second phase type players that take on the line, have footwork and limiting the deep lateral spreads until the second half, we have the forwards to create this platform for sharp cheeky halves who have footwork.(i'm talking in general when there is a lack of troops in the middle of the season/origin period for less lateral play to start with)

Have our power forwards play hard and straight and told straight up don't even consider any ball playing or side ways running until the middle of the second half if Manly are still in the grind.(Now this lack of ball movement will be an issue if that is your limits but during times of injury depletion, inexperienced young halves and playing against poor opposition during Origin time such a simple,direct, predictable disciplined playing style can grind you out wins)

I mean the interaction between Cade and Fainu for their try in the second half was a good indicator of how a simple cut back inside to create straightness and pass back in easily broke up a poor defensive team in the second half.---(That is why i wanted Elgey off and either Api or Fainu pushed in at half)

 

[Simonmyers11]

They were great last week too .... but yet ... we still lost .... our forwards have been bitch slapped and disrespected by the bottom 2 packs 2 weeks in a row...

Max, I know I am old school .. but the game is still won and lost in the pigs ..... line speed, play the ball and clean ball to the backs while the defense is still back peddling is still dependent on winning the ruck and wrestle .... not clocking up metres ...

Yes AFB and Marty are wonderful ... but I doubt they even say a word to each other on the field ... we have 6 good individual forwards .... what we don't have is a pack attitude ....

Just an old buggers opinion ....

Thought they were good as well as siro

Halves played dumb and didn't capitalise on that. Dumb kicking game and elgy's passing was woeful. At the end Cust started playing more direct but was too late.

AFB and Marty cannot carry the team each week

 

[Technical Coach]

Elgey Is done, That’s the simple answer to this. Our game is not that complicatd. He is gone and Des will confirm that soon.

It's already been confirmed but no other options at the moment, bringing in Croker for a more "direct running role along a channel" was Des's way of confirming it.

Feel sorry for the kid as he tries hard, does have some skill but lacks a dominant take control nature that can play at and through the line with confidence.

Elgey can show some quality attacking options when the defense is on it's heals or continuously going backwards but the mark of a decent half is performing when you have the least amount of time.

Forums like these are not a kind place to those lacking confidence, he is better than what he is showing though but too timid and passive to continue with long term.

 

[Technical Coach]

We can always recover with consistent quality attack and this is what is letting us down. Forwards dropping the pill happens in every team and every week.

Unfortunately I don’t think Elgey will make the cut whether that is a lack of confidence or ability or a mixture of both. His kicking and passing was very poor last night and we are yet to see his “best”.

Cust has ticked a few boxes already for Des and while his play was ordinary at times last night he had some great moments mixed in. Des thinks he is “versatile” and I think that means it will be Croker then Cust in partnering DCE.

What is as equally concerning is Api and his service out of dummy half. Apart from his defence and darting runs, his passing has not improved and is even more noticeable when Fainu comes on and starts drilling them.

I wouldn't say Fainu drills them lol, to me drilling them is Ballin, Buderus off the ground composed crispness that is organized and not hesitant.

 

[Technical Coach]

One has to understand the mechanics of the game in order to fairly attribute blame when a loss occurs. Tossing up names like Garrick, Elliott, Taupau, and co. Is unfair.

Everything bad happening at the moment is entirely down to the halves. It sucks to have to say it because they are trying but one doesn’t have the ability to be the dominant half and the other is a rookie.

If you aren’t turning the opposition around with effective kicks, the forwards tire and struggle. The small backs then ruck it out against a fresh opposition pack and look ineffective. Mistakes creep in due to fatigue (see Elliott for example). Guys like Garrick get rag dolled and the backs are cramped for space.

The team then starts playing sideways because there is no space around the ruck because the opposition is winning it due to having more energy...so they push passes and go sideways out of frustration.

If we had DCE’s kicking game and direction the last two weeks, we win.

So let’s not bash the collateral damage when it’s down to ineffective halves. Outside of Jorge’s reserve grade standard play-the-balls, everything is a byproduct of poor kicking and direction.

DCE's doesn't always direct the game well like a half of his caliber and status should, that part of his game is inconsistent but improving. Manly would benefit during a good go forward set from his long kicking game when it is on song though.