A lot of conjecture .. for no answers

[Mark from Brisbane]

Our issue was not winning the middle in the first 15 min against the top teams. The addition of Andrew Davey and Ethan Bullemore may help with this. The game is too fast to have 3 big props on the bench. We need better options from the #9 but that means getting Fainu back which is unlikely till August or at all. So how to change that situation. Is it feasible to continue with Schuster and Olakuatu as 80 min 2nd rowers or does one or both of them need to come on after 20 min to provide attack options after we've won the middle with workhorse hard bastard backrowers. I'd like to see Schuster lose about 10kg and play at 5/8 or move Walker to center and use Schuster in the #14 role. We have to concentrate on tightening our defense. We conceded far too many points this year. I'd rather see us winning games by 24 -12 rather than 46-26.

Defence is the key area we need to improve , how and with whom , that happens in 2022 I don’t know but if we are to progress further it needs to be improved.

 

[mickqld]

Defence is the key area we need to improve , how and with whom , that happens in 2022 I don’t know but if we are to progress further it needs to be improved.

Pretty sure Des will be working on it already. He won't rest till he takes this squad to the prize. You could tell in his awards night speech. Check it out if you haven't heard it. Quite inspiring stuff from the Mad scientist. He'll be searching for every edge he can find.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

Pretty sure Des will be working on it already. He won't rest till he takes this squad to the prize. You could tell in his awards night speech. Check it out if you haven't heard it. Quite inspiring stuff from the Mad scientist. He'll be searching for every edge he can find.

Yeah have watched that , he’s driven no doubt about that.

 

[Rocky]

I was thinking that this squad and this game plan took us to a prelim final so it's not as if heaps needs to change. In fact, it may even be that nothing needs to change, we just have to learn from the experience of the season and come back next year and execute better under pressure.

When you look at Penrith, they have an almost identical squad, minus Mansour and Tamou who were very good for them last year and they are in a GF again. If they win it, one could argue they were a better performed side last year (they won more games and cruised into the decider). When they lost the GF, they didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater and reinvent themselves to 'go one better'. I think they just saw it as a learning curve and have come back with determination and experience.

The same squad that has made two consecutive GFs were awful in 2019 and missed the finals. Same coach, very similar squad. I remember Dylan Edwards was absolutely awful. Moral of the story; it's not always about personnel and it's not always about tactics, it's often something intangible...we just might be better next year for no apparent reason. The same reason Souths finally won a prelim final after trying 4 times. Sometimes things just click!

You make a lot of good points Snake. And obviously the experience will help the team.

Just the fact we were beaten so comprehensively by the top 3 teams all year means some changes need to be made whether its tactically and or the personnel. We were two wins from Ultimate Victory, but i feel like we were a long way from winning it.

 

[mickqld]

Well next year the vermin will be minus Bennett and Reynolds.
The Riff will lose a couple , Burton, Kikau maybe, Capewell.
Drizzle losing JAC, Finucane. Hynes, maybe the cheese.
We aren't losing anyone from the top 17 which is a First for many years. Suli, Siro, maybe Funa, Gosi gone.
Add in Davey plus , Bullemor, maybe a couple more I think we will be a better more experienced side. Young guys maturing and getting bigger and stronger. We'll be back.

 

[Fibro Eagle]

A lot has been said about the forwards with Walker’s involvement, The team needed to roll through the middle more to create that roll on effect , Walker created that in some games which doesn’t say much for the forwards but they may have been cause there was only one big prop left on the field
I think the teams downfall in the bigger games was more to do with the errors they made at crucial times and whether that’s got to do with not playing more through the middle with 2 props continually playing the 1-2 punch or Walkers quicker approach with either one putting more pressure on the team when the ball went side to side to score points , The team did score some long distance tries but when it came to the grind the team struggled to score making more errors
Its a balance that Des experimented with which may have not planned out how he wanted in the finals
Des was criticised for not adjusting to the new game he changed it up and team had some great wins and I’m sure Des didn’t count on the amount of times players dropped the ball
There is not a lot to change for Des next year I’m sure he will tweak a few things and making sure his team don’t make as many errors as they did in the 2 finals games they played

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

Don't know ... but I suspect they are ... we only get so many possesions and if Walker is getting a lot .. someone has to get less ...

I must be missing something - Walker is playing first receiver off - Schu us playing two/three out. Walker is essentially assuming Jake's role as first pivot. Just not sure how Walker is talking the ball playing from Schu and reducing his impact when they are playing totally different roles/positions. I honestly think there was a change in playing style after the Storm loss in the regular season and they were trying to get Tom more space and room and I am just guessing that meant Schu running more decoys or just taking the tackle. After the Storm game very rarely was he involved in a shift of the ball in a game. I could well be wrong. But yes Walker is just assuming Jake's normal one off role.

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

A lot has been said about the forwards with Walker’s involvement, The team needed to roll through the middle more to create that roll on effect , Walker created that in some games which doesn’t say much for the forwards but they may have been cause there was only one big prop left on the field
I think the teams downfall in the bigger games was more to do with the errors they made at crucial times and whether that’s got to do with not playing more through the middle with 2 props continually playing the 1-2 punch or Walkers quicker approach with either one putting more pressure on the team when the ball went side to side to score points , The team did score some long distance tries but when it came to the grind the team struggled to score making more errors
Its a balance that Des experimented with which may have not planned out how he wanted in the finals
Des was criticised for not adjusting to the new game he changed it up and team had some great wins and I’m sure Des didn’t count on the amount of times players dropped the ball
There is not a lot to change for Des next year I’m sure he will tweak a few things and making sure his team don’t make as many errors as they did in the 2 finals games they played

agreed - that attacking style was/is a winner. What cost us was the bad hands and bad decisions at different times including when to offload. Look at the Souths game.... Keppie make a half break - doesn't get the offload to DCE, Tom uses quick hands to Harper - dud play, Aloiai drops it cold, Haumole drops it cold trying to offload, DCE runs into touch when a grubber with Saab motoring on the inside was the perfect play, Tubo drops over the line, Suli looks for a collision as the decoy runner instead of running away from Reynolds. The attack at all costs ethos is a winner - the execution was the problem. Sometimes we need to take the tackle and then line up the attack on the next play. We need more grunt in the forwards but I think a fit Keppie and Aloiai - I mean game fit and injury free will give us some of that grunt.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

The game is too fast to have 3 big props on the bench

Depends who they are.
Marty, Keppie, Aloiai, Paseka can all offer value.
Sipley is not quite there. Whether he can boost his stamina and mobility another couple of percent I don't know, though I wouldn't say he can't.
He's 26, just starting to hit his prime according to rugby league convention. Of course, rugby league convention has taken a few hits in the last couple of years.
I'm a fan of Walker's role from the bench. He probably gets far more involvement than he would sitting out on the edge at centre.
I don't think he takes involvement away from Schu. I think Jake does. There is some perfect balance in there somewhere and if we find it next year then look out!!

 

[40 years an eagle]

I don't think he takes involvement away from Schu. I think Jake does.

100% agree. Jake takes involvement in space away from Shoo when Walker is on. Too many playmakers in the middle/edge taking up space. When Walker is on Jake should just be a prop...up the middle straight and hard, then rest for the next one.

 

[Woodsie]

I must be missing something - Walker is playing first receiver off - Schu us playing two/three out. Walker is essentially assuming Jake's role as first pivot. Just not sure how Walker is talking the ball playing from Schu and reducing his impact when they are playing totally different roles/positions. I honestly think there was a change in playing style after the Storm loss in the regular season and they were trying to get Tom more space and room and I am just guessing that meant Schu running more decoys or just taking the tackle. After the Storm game very rarely was he involved in a shift of the ball in a game. I could well be wrong. But yes Walker is just assuming Jake's normal one off role.

Yeah, it's not an exact science, and as I stated, I have no evidence, just gut feel and observation. You are correct about the change in playing style, and it is this that I believe either took the initiative, the preference or reduced the number of opportunities Schu was used as a link or dominant ball player ..

I also think it is a work in progress and will sort itself ... but my main concern is, that without engaging or winning the battle of the middle ... it will ultimately fail in the big games ... time will tell.

 

[Highflier]

Yeah, it's not an exact science, and as I stated, I have no evidence, just gut feel and observation. You are correct about the change in playing style, and it is this that I believe either took the initiative, the preference or reduced the number of opportunities Schu was used as a link or dominant ball player ..

I also think it is a work in progress and will sort itself ... but my main concern is, that without engaging or winning the battle of the middle ... it will ultimately fail in the big games ... time will tell.

when you say the big games your talking semi's and I think you are 100% right .And I think that's where you need that extra big middle on the bench.We flogged a lot of lower teams with a bench of 2 props and Walker and the Lawman ,as good as they were ,but that mix , could be viewed as proven to be faulty at the pointy end of the season,where not winning the middle leads to errors ,less possession,poor field position ,less room for the backs which leads again to not winning the middle i.e it all compounds in on itself and it becomes rinse and repeat.

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

Yeah, it's not an exact science, and as I stated, I have no evidence, just gut feel and observation. You are correct about the change in playing style, and it is this that I believe either took the initiative, the preference or reduced the number of opportunities Schu was used as a link or dominant ball player ..

I also think it is a work in progress and will sort itself ... but my main concern is, that without engaging or winning the battle of the middle ... it will ultimately fail in the big games ... time will tell.

yes agree to an extent. We do need to get more from our props - I do think a fit Keppie and a fit Aloiai with improved hands will help lots though.

 

[Smokin Joe]

It reminds me a little of the Bozo coached sides in the early to mid 80s'.They threw the ball around and attacked from anywhere on the field no matter if they were 10 metres out from their line.
It worked against the majority of sides,but the better defensively drilled sides at the top(I think it was the Eels and the Dogs mainly back then) used to just nullify it and we more often got beaten in the big games.
Maybe it is a good tactic that we need to adjust against certain sides.....

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

It reminds me a little of the Bozo coached sides in the early to mid 80s'.They threw the ball around and attacked from anywhere on the field no matter if they were 10 metres out from their line.
It worked against the majority of sides,but the better defensively drilled sides at the top(I think it was the Eels and the Dogs mainly back then) used to just nullify it and we more often got beaten in the big games.
Maybe it is a good tactic that we need to adjust against certain sides.....

I don't think 'adjusting against certain sides' is necessarily the best option. Best would be to decide on the style that will win the comp, and then practice it week in and week out.

As for our "pack getting blown off the park" by the big teams because we had Walker replacing a prop - I don't agree. Manly errors in the first 15-20 minutes of both finals losses were our biggest problem. Many of Manly's early errors in both those games were not forced.

Against Storm we were down 16-nil and the game was gone before Walker even came on.
Against Souths we'd given up 4 errors, one 6-again and had also lost Keppie to HIA before Souths scored. Walker came on and then we still could have evened it up but for Suli's obstruction. Turbo dropping it over the line was another big moment. Either of those might have changed the game.

With our attacking selections we certainly needed to have our fair share of the ball but were unable to get close to that. Des nearly blew a gasket when Saab was herded over the sideline. The side including the bench will definitely be a little different next year, will be most interesting to see what Des comes up with.

 

[manly al]

Seems to be a pretty fine line between making the most of an opportunity irrespective of a slight risk element and just playing a bit more conservative and low percentage plays [ especially in the early stages ] just recall that in some of the really testing games for Manly against the Panthers [ 2 nd time ] Storm , both times and Bunnies [ final ] , highlighted unfortunately with really poor starts and getting behind the eight ball early and then so much harder to gain an advantage or get within reach again . Did not mind the tactics i st time against the Storm with using some wider ball movement but even when back level pegging , unforced errors returning . Anyway the ability and playing strength will still be there next season , hopefully if the side can have a good run on the injury front and cut out or significantly reduce the unforced errors . will be a even more competitive unit for a decent crack at the title .

 

[Woodsie]

I don't think 'adjusting against certain sides' is necessarily the best option. Best would be to decide on the style that will win the comp, and then practice it week in and week out.

As for our "pack getting blown off the park" by the big teams because we had Walker replacing a prop - I don't agree. Manly errors in the first 15-20 minutes of both finals losses were our biggest problem. Many of Manly's early errors in both those games were not forced.

Against Storm we were down 16-nil and the game was gone before Walker even came on.
Against Souths we'd given up 4 errors, one 6-again and had also lost Keppie to HIA before Souths scored. Walker came on and then we still could have evened it up but for Suli's obstruction. Turbo dropping it over the line was another big moment. Either of those might have changed the game.

With our attacking selections we certainly needed to have our fair share of the ball but were unable to get close to that. Des nearly blew a gasket when Saab was herded over the sideline. The side including the bench will definitely be a little different next year, will be most interesting to see what Des comes up with.

Would be interested in the knowledge that ... does getting your bum handed to you by the opposing pack and struggling to get field position INCREASE your error rates ... or do your error rates INCREASE the chances that you will get your bum handed to you by opposing forward packs ...

 

[manlyfan76]

I'm going against the grain here and saying Walker's role in the 14 is not the problem ( I actually called for him to play there last year before he ever did and he's doing what I thought he would)
The difference between where we are and want to be is hooker.
Croaker has been very, very solid but is not able to control the modern game enough from hooker nor does he get out and get us on the front foot enough. A dynamic nine would give Shoe, Turbo, Walker many more opportunities.

Yes his defence solid but I'd take a little less D for better attack and game management and kicking from dummy half when needed.

 

[StuBoot]

Would be interested in the knowledge that ... does getting your bum handed to you by the opposing pack and struggling to get field position INCREASE your error rates ... or do your error rates INCREASE the chances that you will get your bum handed to you by opposing forward packs ...

I’d say they’re hand in hand @Woodsie.

Unforced errors leads to frustration and scoreboard pressure no matter how well drilled a side is.Look at the Storm v Panthers last week as an example - both forced and unforced errors led to their demise.

Things like losing a player early to injury/HIA adds that extra pressure/fatigue across the board which can lead to errors, forced or otherwise.

Just like any of the top teams, we’ve shown when we’re on and the 50/50’s go your way it’s hard to stop.
During the year, all teams bar the Top 2 got their bum handed to them at various stages and one of them is playing in the GF.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Our forwards are good and the 3 'rookies', Croker, Schuster and Haumole, should all be even better next year.

Melbourne's forwards are so dominating and yet Marty made a big dent right through the middle almost immediately. But instead of capitalising we gifted them with an error that directly gave them 6 points and the momentum and put all the pressure right on Manly.

Versus Souths - quite similar, Keppie made a very strong early surge poking his nose right through the guts of their forwards. Again we failed to capitalise, instead our error gifting them the early pressure and field position.

Possibly banal to speak of chickens and eggs. In big games against strong opposition you need to take your chances, otherwise your goose is cooked either way. Our inexperience hurt us in those early moments.