A lot of conjecture .. for no answers

[Snake]

It is a 13 man game .. saying one player played well is irrelevant, if his role in the teamwork does not make the team play better ...

This is not about Walker, I acknowledged in the intro he goes well in the role ... but the tactic of taking off 2 props and bringing on a playmaker and moving Jake to prop has not worked when it was really needed IMO ....

It is that tactic that I don't like ..

Fair enough mate. I disagree but I respect your take on things. I don’t think we’ve lost anything not having a prop on in Walker’s place but at the same time, I’m not prepared to say emphatically that I’m right and I think this thread is certainly good food for thought.

 

[manly al]

Had my reservations initially but think that it has worked out well having Walker in his current role . Seems to add a lot when he comes on and puts more pressure on oppositions mid field defence . Tackling has improved appreciably as well . Have to take into account that Keppie was taken off early the other night and Lawton still seems favored on the bench also for whatever time . Side should have gained some reasonable momentum and go forward before Walker would be expected to come on in any case so not his fault if this has not always occurred .

 

[johnperi01]

When I look back at our best win against a decent side, it was the win at Bankwest against Parra when they were flying high. Schuster had a blinder that day, and should be 5/8 next year.
I know it won’t happen but DCE at sunny half would give us more potency around the ruck and could still utilise his kicking game. Foran could play the same role he does now at 7.
I don’t think we are far off the top , but we need to do something around the spine and the centres to go to the next level.
We had a great year this year after our horrendous start, and the 3 finals will be invaluable to the rookies like Saab, Harper, olakatau next year.

 

[StuBoot]

Whether by design, necessity or evolution on the run Des ( and a few other coaches too) moved away from the standard bench - three forwards and a utility.
Walker to his credit obviously knew if he wanted to be in 17 then the 14 jersey was it.
Who would think Benji would embrace it too?
Lots of weeks they’re playing bigger minutes than the frontrowers.
I think they’ve shown the way forward.

Yes, there’ll be injuries but I think more players like Walker & Benji that can change a game will be the new norm.
It won’t always work but it will more often than not.

 

[Snake]

It is a 13 man game .. saying one player played well is irrelevant, if his role in the teamwork does not make the team play better ...

This is not about Walker, I acknowledged in the intro he goes well in the role ... but the tactic of taking off 2 props and bringing on a playmaker and moving Jake to prop has not worked when it was really needed IMO ....

It is that tactic that I don't like ..

I don’t think it is irrelevant. If you take Walker off, you lose the guy that’s leading the line speed, bringing the energy and causing havoc in the middle of the ruck...just so you can bring on another prop because some of the other props aren’t doing their job...I can’t think of any other player that would come on instead of Walker and improve the situation in the middle for us. If anything, they’d slow down what is already a lethargic middle at times.

 

[Eagles4Life]

I don’t think it is irrelevant. If you take Walker off, you lose the guy that’s leading the line speed, bringing the energy and causing havoc in the middle of the ruck...just so you can bring on another prop because some of the other props aren’t doing their job...I can’t think of any other player that would come on instead of Walker and improve the situation in the middle for us. If anything, they’d slow down what is already a lethargic middle at times.

Makes sense to me Snake. But if Walker is doing this so well from the 30 minute mark (We generally lose the big games by the 20 minute mark), should we consider starting him? If so in what position?

 

[Woodsie]

Personally I think he’s been a revelation in his new role.

So do I ... but he could still do it without weakening our prop rotation and forward power ..

 

[Tomay]

Jake tends to play more of the prop role when Walker comes on. I think it works best with another big body like Paseka on the pitch. Keppie will hopefully evolve into that enforcer we need next season and our diversity will be great.

I would like to see Walker give Jake 10-15 minutes to have more impact, force more errors with his tackles and stop giving away so many penalties under fatigue. Also Walker plus two bit props is harder to boss around in the middle.

 

[Woodsie]

Not Walkers fault we don't win the middle in the first 15-20mins against the top teams or we look tense, nervous and overly frantic in attack until we score our first try.

If we had Sipley on the bench it would of been worse, you need spark, thrust, power with speed as options on the bench of varying sizes.(to help swing or create momentum)

Interchanges should be an "injection" that lifts not more of the same plodders.

Yes Sipley has his moments "when it is a flat deck" but when Manly are already struggling and not winning the middle he is going to make f^&k all difference but probably compound the problem when he comes on.

No, it's not his fault .. but the combination of which personell you have on the field has it's consequences ...

... and it isn't about Sipley or any other individual player we currently have or will get ... it is about forward grunt and winning the middle ... it is about what style of game is going to win us a premiership ...

I don't bet ... but if I did and I knew which team was going to win the forward battle, that is who I would put my money on ... and I reckon I would win more than I would lose ...

Personally I like watching Walker and the role he is playing ... what I am questioning is, is it a style that you build a premiership campaign on ... I don't think so ... I think it will impress against lower standard teams and please the people that like shiny things ... but Melb and Souff's showed us what real forward power is about ...

 

[Woodsie]

I don’t think it is irrelevant. If you take Walker off, you lose the guy that’s leading the line speed, bringing the energy and causing havoc in the middle of the ruck...just so you can bring on another prop because some of the other props aren’t doing their job...I can’t think of any other player that would come on instead of Walker and improve the situation in the middle for us. If anything, they’d slow down what is already a lethargic middle at times.

The halves and all ball players including DCE, Foran, Jake, Walker, and Schu are all expotentially more potent playing with forward momentum against a retiring defense .. imagine how much more effective Walker's insertion would be if you didn't weaken that forward drive when you bring him on ..

 

[Snake]

No, it's not his fault .. but the combination of which personell you have on the field has it's consequences ...

... and it isn't about Sipley or any other individual player we currently have or will get ... it is about forward grunt and winning the middle ... it is about what style of game is going to win us a premiership ...

I don't bet ... but if I did and I knew which team was going to win the forward battle, that is who I would put my money on ... and I reckon I would win more than I would lose ...

Personally I like watching Walker and the role he is playing ... what I am questioning is, is it a style that you build a premiership campaign on ... I don't think so ... I think it will impress against lower standard teams and please the people that like shiny things ... but Melb and Souff's showed us what real forward power is about ...

Again, just an opinion, but I see the Walker role as enhancing our chances (I.e. we go further with him there, not backwards). It’s the tactic of throwing the ball around in our own half and making unforced errors that is the ‘style concern’ more so than the personnel.

 

[JakeyB789]

Walker has been outstanding in the 14 role, but yes he should be coming on for Jake. Love Jake but he just doesn't have the running game and having him and Walker out there at the same time almost cancels each other out. Keep the front row rotation as Paseka (needs to start and play more minutes, easily our best metre eater), Keppie, Marty, Aloiai or Sipley if required and just tell them to run hard and straight and not make any errors. We don't have to try and score off every play, let the forwards do their job and the points will come naturally

 

[Tragic Eagle]

Its about balance and in my opinion we lack balance. Jake is a work horse in defence and holds us together, However he is not big enough for the front row and rarely bends the line. IMO Jake is a a backrower who we overwork. Kieran Foran had a good year for us but he does not have the impact of Codey Walker or Jarome Luai because he lacks pace off the mark. Lest get real Foran is 31 years of age turning 32 next July. It has to be his last season and we need to look to the future. That is even more significant when you lack strike in the centres. I'd like to Schuster playing 5/8 and or centre next year. He can't be slower than Parker or Harper. I'd have Keppie in the second row with Big O. Croker has had a really good year but just doesn't challenge defenses from dummy half as he lacks pace off the mark. Don't get me wrong I believe we need Croker and Fainu in our top 30. Walker is going well and bulking up and can play lock but I don't believe we can carry both walker and Lawton on the bench at the same time. So I expect our recruitment this year to be aimed to attaining that balance we need. We have a good squad and we had a great year but we need to keep building.

 

[Snake]

The halves and all ball players including DCE, Foran, Jake, Walker, and Schu are all expotentially more potent playing with forward momentum against a retiring defense .. imagine how much more effective Walker's insertion would be if you didn't weaken that forward drive when you bring him on ..

I don’t think he weakens it though. I think he helps it. It’s the bigger guys that have been a problem. They haven’t brought the line speed or ran like men possessed. If they could bottle some of Walker’s intent and enthusiasm, we’d be better for it!

You look at Taupau’s energy and intent in a couple of those finals games and it just wasn’t good enough. He needed to be a presence and play with energy and aggression...he was like a powder puff. Compare his energy to someone like Hargreaves or James Fisher Harris...

 

[Snake]

Walker has been outstanding in the 14 role, but yes he should be coming on for Jake. Love Jake but he just doesn't have the running game and having him and Walker out there at the same time almost cancels each other out. Keep the front row rotation as Paseka (needs to start and play more minutes, easily our best metre eater), Keppie, Marty, Aloiai or Sipley if required and just tell them to run hard and straight and not make any errors. We don't have to try and score off every play, let the forwards do their job and the points will come naturally

Souths score 50 if Jake goes off for a stint on Friday night.

 

[Ben]

Walkers 14 roll has been a revaluation. When he comes on at the 20 min mark we do lose the big body up the middle but it’s clear Des is coaching for the new age game. I’m all for it as we have seen this year Walkers impact has been much greater than any prop I’ve seen come off the bench.

The game is only going to get faster and Walkers quick feet, short passing and even his hit ups create havoc in the new game.
This has been one of the things that has really excited me this year and that’s the forward thinking use of Walker.

We have a real footy team on our hands!

 

[Woodsie]

I don’t think he weakens it though. I think he helps it. It’s the bigger guys that have been a problem. They haven’t brought the line speed or ran like men possessed. If they could bottle some of Walker’s intent and enthusiasm, we’d be better for it!

You look at Taupau’s energy and intent in a couple of those finals games and it just wasn’t good enough. He needed to be a presence and play with energy and aggression...he was like a powder puff. Compare his energy to someone like Hargreaves or James Fisher Harris...

He does weaken it ... you are looking at his runs ... watch again and look at the defensive side ... we start to lose the forward battle and field position, and not because Walker is not defending OK .. but because he's not a 115kg prop stopping them in their tracks ..

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

It's just an opinion so don't wanna start getting into an argument for having a contrary opinion but if I am honest, I just cannot see what others are seeing as a problem with the Walker role...I know there is every chance that I am wrong and you guys are right so I am not trying to sound arrogant, but I honestly don't get it.

To me, he was our best player against Melbourne and Souths. I thought he was the only player on Friday night that tried to lift us...his line speed was easily the best of any of our forwards. There was a set in the first half where he made 4 tackles in a row, shooting up off the line and inspiring his teammates. I think he has caused all sorts of concerns for the opposition with his speed and footwork in the middle of the field and I've loved his short and long passing around the middle of the ruck.

I believe he is one of the big success stories of our season and I hope he stays in the role permanently. I also don't think the failings of those around him should be grounds for appraisal of his role; if he is playing wonderful individual performances, to my logic, he is doing his job.

Bravo - spot on. Been banging on about this for weeks - Walker has been superb. I think the problem lies with taking Walker and Lawton both on the bench. Walker on the bench plus three big boppers or two big boppers and a very good second rower. Lawton is a good player but I don't think you carry both on the bench. It is that simple.

 

[40 years an eagle]

Again, just an opinion, but I see the Walker role as enhancing our chances (I.e. we go further with him there, not backwards). It’s the tactic of throwing the ball around in our own half and making unforced errors that is the ‘style concern’ more so than the personnel.

Please go back through our season and list the forwards battles won and lost by us, who was playing in them and the result. You would probably ignore that too.

 

[maxta]

Just an observation - I think Walker has been an Absolute revolation as an impact off the bench.
The hard, cold facts are, we are off the pace in the middle with our starting pack, behind in contacts, control, line speed, energy and the list could go on....
I think everyones posts above, though different - have merit.
The nuts and bolts of the story, is the fact our starting forward pack in the finals, were being blown away from the outset in that opening 20 minutes (Keppie and Kapow can keep heads up), which does effect the rotation of smaller men who should be coming on against an opposition lacking steam and sapped of energy, but this is not the case.....the selections from Des of 2 quicks would be FAR more effective IF we had control in the middle as we did in 90% of games and worked a treat by the time these blokes got on the field.(STorm - Rabbits - Finals a different ball game), had to be more amped but unfortunately not.
The Finals are a different animal and unfortunately the angry pills were in the opposition dressing rooms as Manly were Very timid....well that's my view....making Walkers contribution more admirable as he still added thrust in a pack with zero momentum.