Web Browsers

[byso]

Dan I didn't know the Nark was you're boyfriend 8|

 

[Jethro]

There's differences at all levels: where do I start?

From a security level: IE is intermingled with system code (to the point where during the anti-competitive monopoly court cases Microsoft declared that the system depended on it being there). This means that it has special access to certain parts of the system. If a cracker is able to get IE to crash, say, then they have a better chance of getting further into the system. Other browsers (Firefox and Opera, for example) are just normal applications: when they crash they crash. Have you ever noticed that when IE crashes, your normal explorer windows crash with it (and in Windows XP for example, your desktop window 'restarts')? That's because IE is tied to the system.

ActiveX: Another bastardisation of the internet that MS brought to the table was the idea of ActiveX. Originally, these were little programs that could be loaded off the internet and have complete access to and control of your computer. Naturally, only Good People(TM) were expected to use it. Naturally, lots of Bad People(TM) used it. Now MS have done quite well at patching these holes up but most IE exploits are related to IE being tricked into believing something is safe to run.

Security: Despite the reports to the contrary, MS takes longer (on average) to fix more critical (on average) security problems. People will point out 'yeah, well, Firefox had more holes found in X months', for example. These reports don't take into consideration that during those X months, IE still had critical holes that had been found before that time that still hadn't been fixed. That's all I have to say about that, as I don't want to get ranty.

User Interface / Usability: MS has done nothing for IE for how many years? Firefox and Opera have been working hard to improve the user interface and usability. Off the top of my head, tabbed browsing (instead of opening multiple windows, you open 'tabs' in the one window: keep your browsing contained!) and popup blockers are worth the change. The popup blocker stops unwanted popup ads without the need for any additional software. What are the two major things that MS seems to be bringing to the table with the next version of IE (when it finally arrives)? Tabbed browsing (which they boo-hoo-ed not too long ago) and a popup blocker.

Extensions: Now, I don't know about Opera here (though I hear they have quite a few extensions themselves) but Firefox has all sorts of extensions that fit easily into the application. The beauty of all of this is that you only install what you want. I have a little unobtrusive weather forecast in one corner. I have the ability to shake my mouse and close the window or have my RSS feeds display in a sidebar if I want. There's hundreds of different extensions available and they're relatively simple to write if you have a scratch you want itched.

Standards: Other browsers strive to be standards compliant. As IE hasn't been touched by MS for years they are being left behind, really. Basically the next version of IE will be catching up with most other browsers. There are heaps of sites out there that need to be broken to make it look right in IE: it's disgusting. The way I see it, the sooner a website realises that they don't need to continue spending time on getting it right for that broken browser, the sooner they can use that time more constructively.

Anyway, that's a start I think and I hope it was plain enough. The beauty of both Firefox and Opera is that they're free. Opera (www.opera.com) is free as in 'beer', Firefox (http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox) is free as in 'speech' (we can get to that distinction somewhere further into the off season 🙂 ).

SilentBob: have a play with the other browsers for a week each and let us know what you thought. I would truly be interested in your thoughts!

I have IE, Firefox & Avant Browser at home and prefer the Avant Browser over the lot of them. It is a custom Internet Explorer based browser. It also has a Built-in Pop-up Stopper, Tabbed Browsing, Built-in Search Engine box (although I choose to use the Google toolbar over the Yahoo toolbar), User Friendly Interface and Full 100% IE Compatibility. Any web page that loads in IE will load in Avant Browser. You have less Pop-ups and more control over your settings. Avant Browser is updated regularly with new features and bug fixes and will check to make sure you have the latest version on browser startup if you have allowed this option. Avant Browser is more like Firefox than IE. As I live up here on the Gold Coast, I also listen to Triple M Sydney live over the internet sometimes (especially during the footy season to get more unbiased goss & info) and Firefox will not allow this capability that both IE & Avant Browser have. Avant Browser also gives you the option to save all of your tabbed browser windows that you can choose to open when you start your browser next. It also allows you the option to enable an AD blocker. You also have the option to disable pictures, Flash Animations, Sounds, Videos, ActiveX, Scripts, & Java Applets if you so wish. These are but a few of the available options. If anybody wishes to check out Avant Browser you can download it for free at:

http://www.avantbrowser.com/

 

[Narcissus]

Jethro: nice feedback, but let me deconstruct some of your comments, please 🙂

Disclaimer: I haven't used Avant, so this is entirely from a non-user perspective.

It also has a Built-in Pop-up Stopper, Tabbed Browsing, Built-in Search Engine box (although I choose to use the Google toolbar over the Yahoo toolbar)
For those of you playing at home, let me remind you that the 'It also has' portion of this sentence is acknowledging that Firefox and Opera have these features too.

User Friendly Interface and Full 100% IE Compatibility. Any web page that loads in IE will load in Avant Browser.
User Friendly interfaces are in the eye of the beholder, I guess, and I don't see 100% IE compatibility as a benefit. If we were talking about using Microsoft's Internet, or the IE-Standard web, then maybe that would make sense. Unfortunately, being compatible with a browser that is not compatible with the majority of the 'new' web standards ('new' meaning, anything in the last 5 years) doesn't seem to be a selling point to me. When I buy a car, a dealer doesn't tell me 'and check this out, it has exactly the same safety, comfort and technological features as the 2000 model!'...

You have less Pop-ups and more control over your settings.
Is this in comparison to Firefox or IE? I can understand it comparing to IE, but am generally wary of statements like 'more control over your settings' when you are talking about a closed-source application. Less popups than Firefox may be true, but more control over your settings? Firefox has amazing control over its functionality: although the 'normal' interface provides the more normal changes, you can also change things at about:config (type that into your address bar and make changes there). Also, if worse comes to worst, you can always grab the source code and make the exact change you want 🙂 I'm not saying that you should have to, but I am saying that it has more control over your settings than Avant...

Avant Browser is updated regularly with new features and bug fixes
Ahh... bug fixes. This is where anything based on IE is going to hurt. Unfortunately, you can't fix the bugs in the underlying IE architecture: those fixes are only for the Avant side of things. You can see the current state of play from Secunia: Clicky for Internet Explorer vs. the clicky for Mozilla Firefox. IE (and therefore Avant) still has a broken security model and no amount of fixes will change that. Add on the fact that MS are notoriously slow for fixes on their side (as they have to be careful not to break anything, due to the fact that it's tied so stupidly and deeply to the operating system). I won't go on...

and will check to make sure you have the latest version on browser startup if you have allowed this option.
Although Firefox doesn't necessarily look for new versions on each startup, it does automatically look for them quite regularly (if allowed).

I also listen to Triple M Sydney live over the internet sometimes (especially during the footy season to get more unbiased goss & info) and Firefox will not allow this capability that both IE & Avant Browser have.
OK, so I'll pay you there 🙂 However this is most likely a problem with the site: that little 'listen now' is a Flash movie (http://www.mrock.com.au/flash/equalizer.swf) that is linking to a streaming system that requires popups to be enabled??? Bizarre. Unfortunately I'm on the new beta and I can't be bothered to re-enable a few of my extensions but I wouldn't be surprised if it worked if Firefox pretended to be IE. If that's the case, the reason it's not working is because the site is explicitly not working for it. However, there is no reason for a site to not support Firefox as it is more compatible with the standards than IE. When working on websites it is actually harder to get IE to work than Firefox (and I don't know anyone that would say otherwise, unless maybe if they were using FrontPage).

Avant Browser also gives you the option to save all of your tabbed browser windows that you can choose to open when you start your browser next.
As does Firefox.

It also allows you the option to enable an AD blocker.
As does Firefox (via one of the extensions).

You also have the option to disable pictures
As does Firefox (either 'block all images' or 'block images from this site').

Flash Animations
As does Firefox (via one of the extensions).

Sounds, Videos
Although I couldn't say for certain, but I would guess that Firefox can do this from one of the extensions. I daresay that there's one extension that lets you block any and all media...

ActiveX
ActiveX is an IE only thing, so no need for Firefox to block this. Let me add to this by saying if there's an internet (not intranet!) site that requires ActiveX, then I don't go back. Any legitimate site that still requires these components hasn't realised how much of a mess they are!

Scripts, & Java Applets
As does Firefox.


As I say, Jethro, it's all about choice. I guess the reason I started this whole thread was to work out why people hadn't exercised that choice. We are living in an era where people don't realise how bad the PC realm has come. PCs don't have to crash! It's not normal for them to do that. It's not normal for a Word document to be able to carry a virus. It's not normal that just viewing an email or a webpage can give you a virus (I remember reading jokes about that!). It's not normal, but it's seen as the only way.

Anyway, so there's my little deconstruction of Avant. I hope you don't take it personally, Jethro, but my main beef with it is this: at the end of the day, it's still based on IE and whilever something is still based on IE, you are at the whim of MS. They abandoned their product years ago and if it wasn't for Firefox and Opera taking some of their market share, you would still be out in the cold. The less people rely on a convicted monopolist the better. We need to support and encourage the use of products that are written for us, not just written to be used by us.

And that's that 🙂

 

[Fluffy]

"but I am saying that it has more control over your settings than Avant..."


Sounds like someone forgot the disclaimer

"Disclaimer: I haven't used Avant, so this is entirely from a non-user perspective."

 

[Dan]

Fluffy,

Avant is closed source, Firfofox is open source, by definition you have more control in an open source application because you can make changes at the source level and recompile it

 

[Narcissus]

That's exactly right, Daniel. Avant is almost 'one step deeper' than closed source, really. Even if you did have access to the Avant code, you are still restricted by the closed source IE code that is used for rendering...

 

[Utility Player]

Well Narcissus thanks for the advice have downloaded firefox and fond it very good. For anyone hesitant about using it you do not have to have it on at all times you can just start it up from programs and then just use it to look at this site for example. It stops all the freezing problems and does not seem any slower than IE and I am only on a dial up connection because broadband not available in my area.

 

[Fluffy]

Fluffy,

Avant is closed source, Firfofox is open source, by definition you have more control in an open source application because you can make changes at the source level and recompile it

Just fishing mate - need to keep things going as its such a funny read

 

[Normie]

I'm enjoying the change to Firefox & am telling all my mates about it too! Also using Avast anti-virus & finding it so much quicker than Norton's!
I like having IT geeks on this site that impart their knowledge to us less IT educated people - thanks & keep the advice & recommendations coming.....

 

[Narcissus]

@Utility Player and Goldie: good to hear guys! Really glad to help out, though please don't give us an invitation like that Goldie: we'll never stop, and we'll end up devolving into recommending various Linux distributions 🙂

Just kidding. No, that's awesome!

If Daniel was leet enough he'd be able to tell us if there's been any swing in Firefox usage over the last couple of weeks but I don't think he is 🙂

NOW THAT'S FISHING!!!

 

[Fro]

have just connected to broadband in the last hour and already have the recommended firewall and anti virus stuff downloaded and installed.

And firefox is the only way to travel once you get the hang of tabbed browsing and so forth

 

[Canteen Worker]

I knew there had to be a use for geeks somewhere in the world. Thanks boys though I had to wade through a lot of geek-speak to get to the good bits!!!!!

 

[Dan]

hey narc they are all coming over to the good side with all the falven and the flovon 🙂

 

[Fro]

I knew there had to be a use for geeks somewhere in the world. Thanks boys though I had to wade through a lot of geek-speak to get to the good bits!!!!!

There are lots of uses for geeks CW.

Target Practice
Mine sweeping
Chemical testing

the list is endless

 

[Dan]

[quote author=Canteen Worker]
I knew there had to be a use for geeks somewhere in the world. Thanks boys though I had to wade through a lot of geek-speak to get to the good bits!!!!!

There are lots of uses for geeks CW.

Target Practice
Mine sweeping
Chemical testing

the list is endless

[/quote]


The irony......ouch...the irony!

 

[Fro]

knew there would be a comeback soon. 🙂

is 503.9 kilobits per second a good connection speed, Ive got no idea whats good bad or otherwise

 

[Dan]

I think you missed what I meant by the irony as I guess there were 2 levels!

 

[Fro]

Maybe I missed it maybe I didnt, maybe I simply left it alone, which it is is for you to ponder 🙂

and my question?

 

[Dan]

its pretty damn good, but what is telling you, that you are getting those speeds? I would use one of the download speed tester sites.....just do a search in google and you will find them

 

[Fro]

no that is the result from one of those sites, I wouldnt trust the ISPs stated speeds.

that was from http://bandwidthplace.com/speedtest/

As I said I wasnt sure how wuick that was, just that it seemed pretty quick from my point of view