The No-Look News (Schuster Chronicles)

[Rafferty]

Thing is Rafferty is you seem to be operating on perceptions rather then outcomes. I can appreciate the frustrations but its as I suggested, having expectations too high. Time and again the need for instant gratification has led to the loss of significant talent. Do I have to reiterate. Gutherson, Tom Wright, Walker, Hiku, Albert Hopoate etc. Each were criticised for not performing up to our expected standard, yet each went on to performances at other clubs or codes that would now be invaluable to us. We don't know what is happening to Schubert. That's just all conjecture. Thing is I suspect some of us expected him to immediately be the next Bob Fulton or Cliff Lyons. He might be, but lets give him time to develop. We didn't with those now starring in other clubs. And playing in the forwards, though I'm a little uncomfortable about it, you seem to have forgotten his 2021 performances. He was outstanding and added an extra attacking link that set the backline on fire. Gave the stars of the side, Turbo and DCE space. Check out the games again

Bear, the outcomes are there for all to see, my perceptions are based on comparing him to the other 6’s in the NRL and what the modern day 6 needs to bring to a side. My expectations were zero, I never expected he‘d make it as a 5/8, I just hoped he would given all the noise surrounding the situation and for our clubs sake. In fact it was quiet the opposite, his physic and speed are primary pitfalls, then there’s all those voices in his head and the circus that’s surrounded the whole situation.

Sure his young and needs time to build his game, however it’s not to dissimilar to saying here’s a talented defender who weighs 75kg, his 22, wants to play in the FR and believes he’ll be the best player in the world because he can tackle well, there’s more to it and you know it, it’s just wasn’t going to work.

Even if Shoe gets super fit and picks up his work rate, improves his defence etc, his running game can never be like Ezra Mamm’s, Dylan Browns, even Cody Walker @ 33, Luai, etc, look at most sides that lack speed in their halves, they struggle regardless of the other metrics.

Shoe has ball playing skills in abundance, thing is, todays games built of the back of speed and stamina, that’s why where dying a slow death, we haven’t adapted to this crucial aspect, this whole size is everything (up front) approach has hurt us big time, sure you need size, but not at the cost of big minutes, lateral movement and a high cardio output.

I didn’t forget 21, I even made special mention of not referring to it, because that was 2 years ago, did you see how Tom went in 21, it’s not relevant, things change, the games changed, if we weigh up the role of the modern 13 and or edge forwards and lay out the comparisons, it’s harder to swallow than the ideology of playing him at 6, especially when comparing him with other players dominating those positions.

Even the idea of playing as the link with the ball (which is where his value lies) and moving to an edge defensively is fraught with potential pitfalls, not saying I have it right, just saying I cant see things turning out favourably. Most likely, like you, I played the game and have followed it religiously for over 50 years, it’s just my 20 cents worth and as before, hopefully it’s worthless and it turns out that he goes on to help us become a competitive footy club again, sadly I just don’t think so, actually I think it’s going to end badly and that’s where I’ll stay on the matter until or if he proves otherwise.

 

[Nordburg]

Here’s the goss,allegedly(for legal purposes)-Manly gave Schuster permission to look elsewhere,which was the Tigers.But it was only Fulton that wanted him,as Benji made it clear it was a hard no from him.So in the mean time,Manly signed Brooks,leaving Tartak/Schuster with no option but to take the reduced offer Manly came back with once the Tigers knocked him back.
Tartak was of the belief that once Fulton got to the Tigers,he was going to be able to dump his clients there but Benji and his crew don’t want a bar of Tartak,hence the friction between Benji and Fulton.This is why stories have come out this week suggesting certain managers are wary of sending their clients to the Tigers due to the unstable environment and why a certain Greek came out trying to discredit Benji

 

[manlyfan76]

Here’s the goss,allegedly(for legal purposes)-Manly gave Schuster permission to look elsewhere,which was the Tigers.But it was only Fulton that wanted him,as Benji made it clear it was a hard no from him.So in the mean time,Manly signed Brooks,leaving Tartak/Schuster with no option but to take the reduced offer Manly came back with once the Tigers knocked him back.
Tartak was of the belief that once Fulton got to the Tigers,he was going to be able to dump his clients there but Benji and his crew don’t want a bar of Tartak,hence the friction between Benji and Fulton.This is why stories have come out this week suggesting certain managers are wary of sending their clients to the Tigers due to the unstable environment and why a certain Greek came out trying to discredit Benji

All very, very believable.
Add in that the talk on Flannagan jnr went quiet at this time because Brooks had become the target.

 

[Bearfax]

Bear, the outcomes are there for all to see, my perceptions are based on comparing him to the other 6’s in the NRL and what the modern day 6 needs to bring to a side. My expectations were zero, I never expected he‘d make it as a 5/8, I just hoped he would given all the noise surrounding the situation and for our clubs sake. In fact it was quiet the opposite, his physic and speed are primary pitfalls, then there’s all those voices in his head and the circus that’s surrounded the whole situation.

Sure his young and needs time to build his game, however it’s not to dissimilar to saying here’s a talented defender who weighs 75kg, his 22, wants to play in the FR and believes he’ll be the best player in the world because he can tackle well, there’s more to it and you know it, it’s just wasn’t going to work.

Even if Shoe gets super fit and picks up his work rate, improves his defence etc, his running game can never be like Ezra Mamm’s, Dylan Browns, even Cody Walker @ 33, Luai, etc, look at most sides that lack speed in their halves, they struggle regardless of the other metrics.

Shoe has ball playing skills in abundance, thing is, todays games built of the back of speed and stamina, that’s why where dying a slow death, we haven’t adapted to this crucial aspect, this whole size is everything (up front) approach has hurt us big time, sure you need size, but not at the cost of big minutes, lateral movement and a high cardio output.

I didn’t forget 21, I even made special mention of not referring to it, because that was 2 years ago, did you see how Tom went in 21, it’s not relevant, things change, the games changed, if we weigh up the role of the modern 13 and or edge forwards and lay out the comparisons, it’s harder to swallow than the ideology of playing him at 6, especially when comparing him with other players dominating those positions.

Even the idea of playing as the link with the ball (which is where his value lies) and moving to an edge defensively is fraught with potential pitfalls, not saying I have it right, just saying I cant see things turning out favourably. Most likely, like you, I played the game and have followed it religiously for over 50 years, it’s just my 20 cents worth and as before, hopefully it’s worthless and it turns out that he goes on to help us become a competitive footy club again, sadly I just don’t think so, actually I think it’s going to end badly and that’s where I’ll stay on the matter until or if he proves otherwise.

Still basing your argument on perception Rafferty. Dont ever go to the States where stats rule the games played, and rightly so. Perceptions are fundamentally biased. We look at Olakau'atu for example and marvel when he does the spectacular, but defensively he often does about half Croker's efforts and misses many of his tackles with barely a 90% efficiency, the lowest of the forwards. But we admire the spectacular, those occasional stand out efforts. When Schuster does that as in the Raiders game, he's all the rage because of a few spectacular actions. So we come to expect that and when it doesn't happen, he's not doing his job. 10 try assist 10 games. A tackling efficiency comparable to most halves and five eighths. Hmm. We have some tough taskmasters here.

I recall a year when Cliff Lyons was struggling to get make a dent, when the team was near the bottom of the comp. He was copping **** from all angles. One radio commentator was arguing to get him off the field, as if the problem was all his. This was against probably Manly's second best ever player (that's my opinion). No question Schuster isn't impacting as we would like. Maybe he is struggling with injury, weight. I cant answer that. But its always interesting to see remarks about performance and then compare with the fantasy coach rating , which is based in statistical involvement. Last match Schuster was graded above Tuilagi, Sipley, Bullemor, Matterson, Koula, Aloiai, Woos etc. Only Croker, Jake and DCE were the stand outs. Now many may dismiss such means of assessment, but at best are our assessments really any better when based on perception.

 

[Rafferty]

Still basing your argument on perception Rafferty. Dont ever go to the States where stats rule the games played, and rightly so. Perceptions are fundamentally biased. We look at Olakau'atu for example and marvel when he does the spectacular, but defensively he often does about half Croker's efforts and misses many of his tackles with barely a 90% efficiency, the lowest of the forwards. But we admire the spectacular, those occasional stand out efforts. When Schuster does that as in the Raiders game, he's all the rage because of a few spectacular actions. So we come to expect that and when it doesn't happen, he's not doing his job. 10 try assist 10 games. A tackling efficiency comparable to most halves and five eighths. Hmm. We have some tough taskmasters here.

I recall a year when Cliff Lyons was struggling to get make a dent, when the team was near the bottom of the comp. He was copping **** from all angles. One radio commentator was arguing to get him off the field, as if the problem was all his. This was against probably Manly's second best ever player (that's my opinion). No question Schuster isn't impacting as we would like. Maybe he is struggling with injury, weight. I cant answer that. But its always interesting to see remarks about performance and then compare with the fantasy coach rating , which is based in statistical involvement. Last match Schuster was graded above Tuilagi, Sipley, Bullemor, Matterson, Koula, Aloiai, Woos etc. Only Croker, Jake and DCE were the stand outs. Now many may dismiss such means of assessment, but at best are our assessments really any better when based on perception.

I’m not really arguing with you or anyone, just expressing my views. I guess I could approach the situation from a stats perspective, but then I would be ignoring my own judgement. The thing for me is stats don‘t always tell the whole story, stats aside, as there‘s no stats for effort, commitment, kick chases, support plays etc, likewise there’s no stats for laziness, poor attitude, positional play etc (not accusing anyone of anything here) just meaning it’s entirely possible to come up trumps on a stats sheet while actually leaving plenty to be desired from a positional perspective, team perspective, personal perspective and so on.

Without looking at any stats it’s still pretty easy to make an accurate assumption as to who contributes (works hard for the side on and off the ball) leads by example, sets standards etc and who doesn’t. If everyone worked as hard as Jake, no doubt we’d be in a premiership window, fact is they don’t and I didn’t have to look at the stats to make that claim.

Like I said Bear I hope shoe finds his mojo and helps the teams prospects, what ever role he ends up playing, however at this stage, stats aside, as I’ve already mentioned, I’m going to trust my gut (perception if you prefer) until he proves otherwise. Its not like his our only issue unfortunately, we are in a mess from the top down.

.

 

[Bearfax]

I’m not really arguing with you or anyone, just expressing my views. I guess I could approach the situation from a stats perspective, but then I would be ignoring my own judgement. The thing for me is stats don‘t always tell the whole story, stats aside, as there‘s no stats for effort, commitment, kick chases, support plays etc, likewise there’s no stats for laziness, poor attitude, positional play etc (not accusing anyone of anything here) just meaning it’s entirely possible to come up trumps on a stats sheet while actually leaving plenty to be desired from a positional perspective, team perspective, personal perspective and so on.

Without looking at any stats it’s still pretty easy to make an accurate assumption as to who contributes (works hard for the side on and off the ball) leads by example, sets standards etc and who doesn’t. If everyone worked as hard as Jake, no doubt we’d be in a premiership window, fact is they don’t and I didn’t have to look at the stats to make that claim.

Like I said Bear I hope shoe finds his mojo and helps the teams prospects, what ever role he ends up playing, however at this stage, stats aside, as I’ve already mentioned, I’m going to trust my gut (perception if you prefer) until he proves otherwise. Its not like his our only issue unfortunately, we are in a mess from the top down.

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OK. Let me take this from another angle.

You tell me based on your observations that you consider Schuster has numerous deficiencies, which your alluding to. I say from my perspective he is achieving what I feel is positive. Now. Who is correct? I'm not challenging the right to have an opinion, I'm challenging perspective. How we see things. The answer is neither of us is either right or wrong. We are only right in terms of how we interpret from our perspective. Therein lies the dilemma, which can only be resolved by untainted evidence, in this case stats. They don't tell all the story but they have a stronger likelihood of being more accurate. That's why in a court trial, evidence heavily outweighs perception.

Now the problem about how we perceive is that we are often influenced by what others report, and as a consequence we focus more on those issues regarding that player, than we do with others. 'He's a poor defender.' We watch and we'll see him miss tackles thereby substantiating the claim for example. Having earned that tag, it follows the player even though comparatively, it may not be justified under scrutiny.

Lets take that example regarding Schuster's defense as a comparative examples. The stats on him and a a few other 5/8/half backs follow in 2023:

Schuster. Average tackles per game 16.5. Efficiency:86.4%
Cody Walker. Average tackles per game: a little over 19. Efficiency: 86.7%
Mitch Moses: Average tackles per game: a little under 16. Efficiency: 84.4%
Scott Drinkwater: Average tackles per game: 6.5. Efficiency : 75.6%
Jack Wighton: Average tackles per game: 17. Efficiency: 83.9%
Cameron Munster: Average tackles per game : 21. Efficiency: 84.9%
Ben Hunt: Average tackles per game: 17.5. Efficiency: 84.7%
Luke Keary: Average tackles per game19.5 Efficiency: 88.1%

Now I've cherry picked a little. Probably the best half defender is Cherry Evans with 19.5 tackles per game at 92% efficiency. But I hope you get my point. Schuster's defense is fairly consistent with most players in those positions, suggesting his defense commitment is little different from others, as is his tackle efficiency. Yet on this site we have complaints about his defense not being up to standard. Ergo his commitment in that regard is also not up to standard. Not the best for sure but not so poor to require severe criticism. Look at Drinkwater's figures yet we don't hear an outcry about his efforts. This is an example as to why stats tell more than perspective. Trick is not to be swayed into focusing on what is considered a negative. You'll find what you're looking for to justify that argument, even if it doesn't fit with the overall evidence.

 

[Scorpio]

A former poster here did say that many junior coaches saw Schuster as a forward and thought that us playing him in the halves during the juniors would harm his long-term development as he fills out.

Well, next year we have DCE and Brooks so presumably Schuster will be in the forwards.

But... he has no top speed and not much of a running game so how is it going to work?

 

[Spartan Eagle]

Here’s the goss,allegedly(for legal purposes)-Manly gave Schuster permission to look elsewhere,which was the Tigers.But it was only Fulton that wanted him,as Benji made it clear it was a hard no from him.So in the mean time,Manly signed Brooks,leaving Tartak/Schuster with no option but to take the reduced offer Manly came back with once the Tigers knocked him back.
Tartak was of the belief that once Fulton got to the Tigers,he was going to be able to dump his clients there but Benji and his crew don’t want a bar of Tartak,hence the friction between Benji and Fulton.This is why stories have come out this week suggesting certain managers are wary of sending their clients to the Tigers due to the unstable environment and why a certain Greek came out trying to discredit Benji

Mate I didn't say anything negative about Benji! Where do you get your goss from?

 

[rmd]

Statistics can make anything you like look good or bad, depending on further analysis.

It’s not the missed tackle statistics that really make a difference, but rather what happened as a result of the missed tackle. Was it a missed tackle inside the opponent’s 10m line, which had no impact on a scoring opportunity, or did the missed tackle result in a try?

 

[Kiwi Eagle]

A former poster here did say that many junior coaches saw Schuster as a forward and thought that us playing him in the halves during the juniors would harm his long-term development as he fills out.

Well, next year we have DCE and Brooks so presumably Schuster will be in the forwards.

But... he has no top speed and not much of a running game so how is it going to work?

It worked outstandingly in 2021, to the point he was in Origin discussions

Hopefully he finds that again next season, I remember his step always had him making decent metres

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

Here’s the goss,allegedly(for legal purposes)-Manly gave Schuster permission to look elsewhere,which was the Tigers.But it was only Fulton that wanted him,as Benji made it clear it was a hard no from him.So in the mean time,Manly signed Brooks,leaving Tartak/Schuster with no option but to take the reduced offer Manly came back with once the Tigers knocked him back.
Tartak was of the belief that once Fulton got to the Tigers,he was going to be able to dump his clients there but Benji and his crew don’t want a bar of Tartak,hence the friction between Benji and Fulton.This is why stories have come out this week suggesting certain managers are wary of sending their clients to the Tigers due to the unstable environment and why a certain Greek came out trying to discredit Benji

Makes perfect sense to me

 

[Eagle 1]

It worked outstandingly in 2021, to the point he was in Origin discussions

Hopefully he finds that again next season, I remember his step always had him making decent metres

Agree, he was killing it in 2021, then again so was Turbo. Schuster rode on the wave of success that year. Come 2023, sadly the 2021 version hasn't been sighted since.

 

[Nordburg]

Mate I didn't say anything negative about Benji! Where do you get your goss from?

Not sure you’re the “certain Greek” I was referring to

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Tartak was of the belief that once Fulton got to the Tigers,he was going to be able to dump his clients there but Benji and his crew don’t want a bar of Tartak,hence the friction between Benji and Fulton.

If Benji doesn't want a bar of Tartak then I wonder how he feels about the Fainu kids (Tartak clients) signing big money long term deals. Not thrilled, is my guess.
Almost feel a bit sorry for the Tigers, what a basket case! (I said 'almost') 🙂

 

[Rafferty]

OK. Let me take this from another angle.

You tell me based on your observations that you consider Schuster has numerous deficiencies, which your alluding to. I say from my perspective he is achieving what I feel is positive. Now. Who is correct? I'm not challenging the right to have an opinion, I'm challenging perspective. How we see things. The answer is neither of us is either right or wrong. We are only right in terms of how we interpret from our perspective. Therein lies the dilemma, which can only be resolved by untainted evidence, in this case stats. They don't tell all the story but they have a stronger likelihood of being more accurate. That's why in a court trial, evidence heavily outweighs perception.

Now the problem about how we perceive is that we are often influenced by what others report, and as a consequence we focus more on those issues regarding that player, than we do with others. 'He's a poor defender.' We watch and we'll see him miss tackles thereby substantiating the claim for example. Having earned that tag, it follows the player even though comparatively, it may not be justified under scrutiny.

Lets take that example regarding Schuster's defense as a comparative examples. The stats on him and a a few other 5/8/half backs follow in 2023:

Schuster. Average tackles per game 16.5. Efficiency:86.4%
Cody Walker. Average tackles per game: a little over 19. Efficiency: 86.7%
Mitch Moses: Average tackles per game: a little under 16. Efficiency: 84.4%
Scott Drinkwater: Average tackles per game: 6.5. Efficiency : 75.6%
Jack Wighton: Average tackles per game: 17. Efficiency: 83.9%
Cameron Munster: Average tackles per game : 21. Efficiency: 84.9%
Ben Hunt: Average tackles per game: 17.5. Efficiency: 84.7%
Luke Keary: Average tackles per game19.5 Efficiency: 88.1%

Now I've cherry picked a little. Probably the best half defender is Cherry Evans with 19.5 tackles per game at 92% efficiency. But I hope you get my point. Schuster's defense is fairly consistent with most players in those positions, suggesting his defense commitment is little different from others, as is his tackle efficiency. Yet on this site we have complaints about his defense not being up to standard. Ergo his commitment in that regard is also not up to standard. Not the best for sure but not so poor to require severe criticism. Look at Drinkwater's figures yet we don't hear an outcry about his efforts. This is an example as to why stats tell more than perspective. Trick is not to be swayed into focusing on what is considered a negative. You'll find what you're looking for to justify that argument, even if it doesn't fit with the overall evidence.

I don’t think we’re getting anywhere here, re your opening paragraph, for me it’s not really about what I see as his deficiencies, even if I mentioned particular aspects of his game, I will agree however that this is about personal perspective. I appreciate the approach you‘ve taken, but you word things for the benefit of your view point, if your happy with what his achieving and see it as positive, then that’s where we see it very differently.

I’m not wanting to get on Shoe or compare his stats because it’s not completely about that, besides that I’d like him to be successful, I’ve supported him from the beginning, however my confidence has seriously diminished to the point I‘ve been expressing, hence where I’m at. I’m not interested in arguing or having a crack at how you perceive his performance or how his stats measure up, if you prefer, I’ll end by saying it’s a judgment call based on my perception, time will provide the answers, so I guess we’ll see where it all ends up going forward, I won’t be holding my breath as I don’t have a lot of confidence in our whole organisation at present and think we are in for some really hard times.

 

[Thewestisbest]

Makes perfect sense to me

We believe what we want to believe I guess.

Take Des Hasler. Many on here claimed he was a dinosaur and that no other footy club wanted a bar of him. We now know for a fact that isn't true after Newcastle and the Gold Coast scrambled to secure him as their head coach. We complained that Dinosaur Des was past it because he wasn't picking Kao Weekes and chose to play Kieren Foran at six. Schuster is the best 5/8 we screamed, why is Des playing him in the second row? Same goes for Hopoate.

Spoonbold was the answer to our prayers. The Des haters said he is a younger coach who would bring a fresh innovative approach to Manly. Spoony won't pick old duds in the team or refuse point blank to drop them. Then Sharon Woods joked his way through the doors on a free contract, declaring how much he loves the joint, unseating better players on a weekly basis. Unsurprisingly, Spoony soon realised Des was right about Weekes, Schuster, Foz and co.

The impact of the rainbow jersey and the tragic death of Keith Titmus played a huge part in our poor finish last season. Anyone who claims otherwise is just completely ignorant or full of bitterness. In the end, Des was sacked because he dared to question management after they hung him out to dry.
 
Now Dinosaur Des has quickly been snapped up by a rival club and Spoony has begun to unravel.

We believe what we want to believe I guess.

 

[Thewestisbest]

Here’s the goss,allegedly(for legal purposes)-Manly gave Schuster permission to look elsewhere,which was the Tigers.But it was only Fulton that wanted him,as Benji made it clear it was a hard no from him.So in the mean time,Manly signed Brooks,leaving Tartak/Schuster with no option but to take the reduced offer Manly came back with once the Tigers knocked him back.
Tartak was of the belief that once Fulton got to the Tigers,he was going to be able to dump his clients there but Benji and his crew don’t want a bar of Tartak,hence the friction between Benji and Fulton.This is why stories have come out this week suggesting certain managers are wary of sending their clients to the Tigers due to the unstable environment and why a certain Greek came out trying to discredit Benji

Where did you hear this?

 

[Thewestisbest]

A former poster here did say that many junior coaches saw Schuster as a forward and thought that us playing him in the halves during the juniors would harm his long-term development as he fills out.

Well, next year we have DCE and Brooks so presumably Schuster will be in the forwards.

But... he has no top speed and not much of a running game so how is it going to work?

Des Hasler had him firing in the second row. From memory, it was also Schuster's best season in first grade by a considerable margin. Spoony is going back to the future it seems.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

The impact of the rainbow jersey and the tragic death of Keith Titmus played a huge part in our poor finish last season.

Titmus died in Nov 2020. Aside from that though you make some good points about the 'Des haters'. However you seem to exhibit a lot of the very same blinkered see-what-you-want-to-see characteristics in your own Seibold-hating.

 

[Thewestisbest]

Titmus died in Nov 2020. Aside from that though you make some good points about the 'Des haters'. However you seem to exhibit a lot of the very same blinkered see-what-you-want-to-see characteristics in your own Seibold-hating.

The difference being that Des Hasler has taken teams to five GF's, multiple finals and two premierships. Then there's the fact that a Des coached side has never finished last. Siebold on the other hand guided the richest NRL club to a wooden spoon, and many ex players came out when we were interested in signing him and said he talks the talk without being able to walk the walk. At the start of the season Anthony proclaimed we were a finals footy side. Now all I hear is "Success isn't a straight line," or "the Cowboys are a good footy side, right."

Spoony also flooded the Broncos with Moses clients.

The proof is in the pudding.

If it walks like a duck....