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Ron E. Gibbs

First Grader
I think we'd all love a 'Stella' year - sadly she's gone..............:heartbreak:

Loved her in "The Ballad of Cable Hogue", possibly the weirdest movie Sam Peckinpah ever made.

 

jbb/james

First Grader
Premium Member
Tipping Member
just some questions about overplaying his hand. when is it cool, when is it not

if you overplay year after year coach after coach is it a choice that you refuse to learn from.

how did foran manage to play direct with the same forward pack. how does TOM, i bet this example will go through to the keeper

is overplay you hand just another term for hogging it or failure to produce results with endearment attached. sounds like something id say about my kid

as a 7 is it even possible to overplay you hand without taking the ball to the line to assist your outside men. its the primary role

if you choose to kick from behind the line, negating our chase game is that considered OYH

are schusters no look passes overplaying his hand

josh ailoi is supposed to be our hard man. was his reverse facial overplaying his aggressive hand and how many more of those would be deemed too many to carry

keppie tries hard but pops some awful balls when in strife, is this an example of OYH we can also accept in another few years

at the end of the day all the double pumps, benny hill moves, and using everyones space is NOT COOL. IT is a lack of game awareness or on field maturity dressed up as busy busy hands

were sirro opportunities overplayed to obscurity

IMO this overplay thing seems pointed to his errors only and completely ignores his underplaying of the vital roles he could lend the team. he has plenty of underplaying moments as well. is this a good mix

do forward packs die on a hill for a backline that squanders there toil. lots of talk about unified squads off field but to get a team humming there has to be respect for eachothers work. the riff have lots going for them but that is what i see as there major weapon. they play to eachother for eachother not just the win

anyways enjoy your day, i just want manly to succeed , or at least not to Suck
 

Bearfax

Grizzly old fart
just some questions about overplaying his hand. when is it cool, when is it not

if you overplay year after year coach after coach is it a choice that you refuse to learn from.

how did foran manage to play direct with the same forward pack. how does TOM, i bet this example will go through to the keeper

is overplay you hand just another term for hogging it or failure to produce results with endearment attached. sounds like something id say about my kid

as a 7 is it even possible to overplay you hand without taking the ball to the line to assist your outside men. its the primary role

if you choose to kick from behind the line, negating our chase game is that considered OYH

are schusters no look passes overplaying his hand

josh ailoi is supposed to be our hard man. was his reverse facial overplaying his aggressive hand and how many more of those would be deemed too many to carry

keppie tries hard but pops some awful balls when in strife, is this an example of OYH we can also accept in another few years

at the end of the day all the double pumps, benny hill moves, and using everyones space is NOT COOL. IT is a lack of game awareness or on field maturity dressed up as busy busy hands

were sirro opportunities overplayed to obscurity

IMO this overplay thing seems pointed to his errors only and completely ignores his underplaying of the vital roles he could lend the team. he has plenty of underplaying moments as well. is this a good mix

do forward packs die on a hill for a backline that squanders there toil. lots of talk about unified squads off field but to get a team humming there has to be respect for eachothers work. the riff have lots going for them but that is what i see as there major weapon. they play to eachother for eachother not just the win

anyways enjoy your day, i just want manly to succeed , or at least not to Suck


The issue was that without Schuster (fit) and Turbo. Manly had no variation in attack other than DCE. Contain DCE, make him run around in circles and you've stopped Manly. Foran was a top five eighth in his time and he put in every game. But he's not a Jamie Lyon, Cliff Lyons ball playing type and that's what we needed. Foran is tough, go forward type and he does some clever things, but he's not going to win you games by consistently creating breaks. A lot of this depends on the forwards of course, creating ground. But Manly were outstanding in 2021 primarily led by Turbo and DCE, as well as having Schuster play outside Foran and create space. We had a good backline last year with Garrick, Koula, Saab etc but where were the breaks. DCE was outstanding in SOO because he had an outstanding ball player in Munster outside him. He didnt have to run around like a headless chook. No disrespect for Foran, but he wasn't the answer we needed, like he was in 2011.
 

Mark from Brisbane

“ Boomer still Booming”
Premium Member
Tipping Member
just some questions about overplaying his hand. when is it cool, when is it not

if you overplay year after year coach after coach is it a choice that you refuse to learn from.

how did foran manage to play direct with the same forward pack. how does TOM, i bet this example will go through to the keeper

is overplay you hand just another term for hogging it or failure to produce results with endearment attached. sounds like something id say about my kid

as a 7 is it even possible to overplay you hand without taking the ball to the line to assist your outside men. its the primary role

if you choose to kick from behind the line, negating our chase game is that considered OYH

are schusters no look passes overplaying his hand

josh ailoi is supposed to be our hard man. was his reverse facial overplaying his aggressive hand and how many more of those would be deemed too many to carry

keppie tries hard but pops some awful balls when in strife, is this an example of OYH we can also accept in another few years

at the end of the day all the double pumps, benny hill moves, and using everyones space is NOT COOL. IT is a lack of game awareness or on field maturity dressed up as busy busy hands

were sirro opportunities overplayed to obscurity

IMO this overplay thing seems pointed to his errors only and completely ignores his underplaying of the vital roles he could lend the team. he has plenty of underplaying moments as well. is this a good mix

do forward packs die on a hill for a backline that squanders there toil. lots of talk about unified squads off field but to get a team humming there has to be respect for eachothers work. the riff have lots going for them but that is what i see as there major weapon. they play to eachother for eachother not just the win

anyways enjoy your day, i just want manly to succeed , or at least not to Suck
If you look at the QLD games this doesn’t happen, why ??

Dominant forwards & a decent 5/8 beside him.

I’m not just supporting him because he’s the captain but I think at times he gets a bad rap when in fact the team as a whole should cop it.
 

Tragic Eagle

Tragic
Premium Member
Tipping Member
DCE plays much better in state of origin because he trusts those around him and doesn't try to create something special himself all of the time. Additionally he doesn't race up out of the defensive line leaving his outside men outnumbered because he trusts his outside defenders will get the job done.
He needs to do the same at club level and be prepared to be patient. Too often poor options deflated the side last season, particularly kicking the ball away early in the tackle count when he had been defending for an eternity or stifling our defence by running one way and then doubling back the other way.
DCE is an outstanding athlete who is always extremely fit and there is never any doubt he gives 100% game after game. He just needs to utilise the talent around him and back up through the middle, and be a smarter footballer that makes the right decisions at the right time most of the time.
 

jbb/james

First Grader
Premium Member
Tipping Member
The issue was that without Schuster (fit) and Turbo. Manly had no variation in attack other than DCE. Contain DCE, make him run around in circles and you've stopped Manly. Foran was a top five eighth in his time and he put in every game. But he's not a Jamie Lyon, Cliff Lyons ball playing type and that's what we needed. Foran is tough, go forward type and he does some clever things, but he's not going to win you games by consistently creating breaks. A lot of this depends on the forwards of course, creating ground. But Manly were outstanding in 2021 primarily led by Turbo and DCE, as well as having Schuster play outside Foran and create space. We had a good backline last year with Garrick, Koula, Saab etc but where were the breaks. DCE was outstanding in SOO because he had an outstanding ball player in Munster outside him. He didnt have to run around like a headless chook. No disrespect for Foran, but he wasn't the answer we needed, like he was in 2011.
i believe you are talking ability where i was talking opportunity. a popular consensus is that the forward pack doesnt give DCE opportunity to play direct. but foran did. it was a choice not a symptom of the pack. that is the point

over years the story has been, not enough grunt, not enough hooker, not enough number 6. poor coaching,too slow and back to forwards.

we still did lack grunt last season somewhat, but with foran, tom at times, schuster at times, walker and jake playing first receiver it was hardly the hollow chasm you describe. if DCE plays direct and fails thats one thing, if he doesnt thats on him. most halfbacks get creamed a lot because of that role, Dce rarerly gets a bump

if anyone bothers watching foran play right last season when DCE was out the difference was astounding. only because he passed early, nothing magical,no secret formula , just basics . so is he just a true blonde.

you also talk about decoys and the worry of other ball players, tom is the one that suffers from that not DCE. 2021 was all tom, DCE had some great stats but they are never the hard stats, always when the score is a blowout thus his and our rep as flat track bullies

while foran may not be the answer, it does not mean DCE is either
 

jbb/james

First Grader
Premium Member
Tipping Member
If you look at the QLD games this doesn’t happen, why ??

Dominant forwards & a decent 5/8 beside him.

I’m not just supporting him because he’s the captain but I think at times he gets a bad rap when in fact the team as a whole should cop it.
DCE went well in origin, yes he had some telling moments in the second half of game 3
but Munster, ponga, hunt and grant were all more dominant, maybe not ponga so much but the others carried him until he pounced. munster is very very good just quietly

DCE loves the big moments just cant get a team to them

even deardon if he had played more time probably would have contributed more overall

DCE made his name early in a star studded side., his abilty to hit full pace and create a break while everyone was watching the stewys , lyon foz was a wonderful asset

but he really hasnt progressed past this point. he lacks the discipline to do the things a footy team needs. wonderful kicker, **** kicking game overall as an example.

i love your attitude toward the team Mark as its the same thoughts that drive mine. we keep blaming other manly players while he just does the same old and ignores the same old. its not pretty.

the focus he puts on tom is over the top considering his standing and ability, and jakes career has taken a dive since he became first receiver. while the coach was involved for sure DCE has always had the ability to jump into first receiver however he ignores it

jake also looks very good playing for the blues. is there some irony in there .
 

Budgie

In for the long haul.
2016 Tipping Competitor
Tipping Member

manly al

First Grader
Just seems to always boil down to an instinctively ad lib player like D C E not overplaying his hand , in attack and defence . Really just has to stick to the basics and a good kicking game . Not as if he is not capable of giving good early ball or pass selection to his supports or some more direct attack with some shape . Foran did it and continued to do it on a regular basis , skillfully committing the defence , usually excellent pass selection . just no comparison really and Foz has lost a little bit of mobility in recent seasons . Also applies sometimes and to the detriment of the side with D C E ' s reads in defence . Still good speed , back up ability , capable kicking game , sound defence when hie gets his reads right , Of course good when he does get it right and to be able to justify his pay grade . No help in just dismissing his sometimes indifferent club form on inferior packs or players lacking ability around him or whatever , Really just has a simple role to play and still has the ability to manage it and well , Only main requirement again , just not to overplay his hand as has often been referred to .
 

Eagle 1

First Grader
Happy Birthday to our headless chook , he is our gambler , play your hand and hope for the best. no consistency. I feel Cooper Johns is our future, he promotes the ball left and and right field and doesnt spin in circles not knowing what to do next or passing to players with no space. Pressure is on DCE lets hope he can adjust.
Great back up tho, also, long kicking game was found out in the 2nd half in Roosters game.
 

Bearfax

Grizzly old fart
i believe you are talking ability where i was talking opportunity. a popular consensus is that the forward pack doesnt give DCE opportunity to play direct. but foran did. it was a choice not a symptom of the pack. that is the point

over years the story has been, not enough grunt, not enough hooker, not enough number 6. poor coaching,too slow and back to forwards.

we still did lack grunt last season somewhat, but with foran, tom at times, schuster at times, walker and jake playing first receiver it was hardly the hollow chasm you describe. if DCE plays direct and fails thats one thing, if he doesnt thats on him. most halfbacks get creamed a lot because of that role, Dce rarerly gets a bump

if anyone bothers watching foran play right last season when DCE was out the difference was astounding. only because he passed early, nothing magical,no secret formula , just basics . so is he just a true blonde.

you also talk about decoys and the worry of other ball players, tom is the one that suffers from that not DCE. 2021 was all tom, DCE had some great stats but they are never the hard stats, always when the score is a blowout thus his and our rep as flat track bullies

while foran may not be the answer, it does not mean DCE is either


James a couple of points. Foran played in the same games as DCE with his direct play. Do we place all the blame of DCE because of a certain perspective. Secondly the only two games DCE was absent from the team was when Schuster played 5/8. Was this not a factor. Yes they won but who did they beat. The team that came last in the season and the team that came second last. Thirdly DCE was considered outstanding by most judges in 2021 and of course having Tom there gave him far more opportunity to move the ball. For years Manly has had a pedestrian backline outside of DCE. Only in the past two years have we begun to get some talented players out there in Garrick, Saab and Koula and now Weekes. DCE was virtually the sole attacking instrument in the back line when Turbo was absent, as well as doing a lot of the defensive work. We would have been wooden spooners without him. In 2021 when Turbo won the Dally M award, DCE was in the top 5 for that year. Even last year in Supercoach DCE averaged 59 points per game, Foran 30. How we perceive players is very much based on what we choose to note.
 

The Indian

Bencher
DCE at 34 isn't going to start to want to dig into the line and straighten the attack to create space for our outside runners all of a sudden. I wish he would but it ain't gonna happen.

As for what DCE averages in Supercoach or whatever the Dally M's say or how well he plays for Queensland leave me out of all that. Your eyes will tell you DCE has to lift a hell of a lot from what he has dished up for us these past few years if we are going to compete this year. It's not in the big plays cause we all know he's very good at those, it's just the mundane pressure building routine end of set plays that all good halfbacks can do that he seems to get bored with and drifts away from. This he can fix. It's a very winnable comp this year, we have some exciting young players coming through, the opportunity is there.
 

Bearfax

Grizzly old fart
DCE at 34 isn't going to start to want to dig into the line and straighten the attack to create space for our outside runners all of a sudden. I wish he would but it ain't gonna happen.

As for what DCE averages in Supercoach or whatever the Dally M's say or how well he plays for Queensland leave me out of all that. Your eyes will tell you DCE has to lift a hell of a lot from what he has dished up for us these past few years if we are going to compete this year. It's not in the big plays cause we all know he's very good at those, it's just the mundane pressure building routine end of set plays that all good halfbacks can do that he seems to get bored with and drifts away from. This he can fix. It's a very winnable comp this year, we have some exciting young players coming through, the opportunity is there.


I would say that official judges are not to be easily dismissed even if they may not be entirely accurate. Relying on personal perspectives though is likely to be more flawed than what these judges determine, because we all have biases, even if we dont realise it. I'll look at what's happening on the field and I can be absolutely certain how I see it wont be how you see it. So relying on what you see is far less reliable than relying on statistical information
 

Woodsie

Feast yer eyes ..
Tipping Member
The single biggest difference to DCE's game will come if our forwards continue to play more direct ..

There was a 10 minute spell there against Easts ... that even made a reject store John's... and a newbie Neville Gordo ... look like superstars . ... at least convinced some that they were ...
 

Rafferty

Mug punter
Saw some speculation on DCE‘s share of the cap the other day, I can’t recall which thread, anyway below is zerotackles take on the 10 ten top earners for 2023.
 

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Pete W

Bencher
I would say that official judges are not to be easily dismissed even if they may not be entirely accurate. Relying on personal perspectives though is likely to be more flawed than what these judges determine, because we all have biases, even if we dont realise it. I'll look at what's happening on the field and I can be absolutely certain how I see it wont be how you see it. So relying on what you see is far less reliable than relying on statistical information
@Bearfax Mate big fan of your posts, and you make fair points in defence of DCE. But just on this point re stats vs what we actually observe, I must strongly disagree. A game of footy is more art than science. Fantasy points for example is where DCE excels as the team's only kicker, he knows very well that number of kicks, kick metres, receipts and passes, dummy passes, and conversions, all score big in terms of individual accolades.

But if the halfback, captain, principal playmaker, and game manager does not help the overall team performance, then only an observer can judge whether he has been effective. Taupau, for example, still had strong 'individual' stats last year, and journos who don't know a thing about footy wrote up how such an 'in form' star of the game is still off contract etc, yet coaches at most clubs knew very well that his effectiveness for the team's benefit had diminished. Stats will never illustrate the full story.

@jbb/james is correct in pointing out that DCE has always had an excuse. It's either no suitable 6, no 9, no forwards, no backs, but realistically, we have had our fair share of decent players throughout the last 8 years. When does he accept any responsibility?

Couldn't care less how many kick metres he makes in a game, if he causes confusion for his team mates, doesn't direct our attack in a focused manner, and takes horrible last tackle options, then that's not up to standard, particularly for a player of his standing in the game.

As Joey and all the great 7s constantly harp on about, the truest way to create opportunities for your players, is to play DIRECT, run at the line, hard, and fast, and DCE has never been willing to put his body on the line for his mates.

Apologies for the rant...
 

Eagle 1

First Grader
Saw some speculation on DCE‘s share of the cap the other day, I can’t recall which thread, anyway below is zerotackles take on the 10 ten top earners for 2023.
Wow....Ponga's on 1.4m a season. The more you get the more is expected of you, and on this score Ponga ain't delivering.
 
Team P W L PD Pts
12 9 3 83 22
14 10 4 78 22
13 9 4 110 20
13 8 5 66 20
13 7 6 81 18
12 7 5 -37 18
13 7 6 133 16
13 7 6 47 16
13 7 6 -34 16
13 6 6 27 15
13 6 6 26 15
14 7 7 -26 14
13 6 7 -47 14
13 4 9 -111 10
12 3 9 -123 10
12 3 9 -136 10
12 2 10 -137 8
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