The Daly Cherrygraph
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Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
Thurston was half when the Cowboys came 12th, 15th and 13th in some of the years he was there. Moses at Wests had his team coming 13th, 15th, 9th and 14th and in 2018 at Parra 16th.
Sorry but one player no matter how good he is, cant carry a team. Cronk was successful because he had a damned good set of champion players around him. Same at SC. Cleary only two years ago was in a team that came 10th. Are they bad players as a result. Unless you have the cattle around you, you're not going to succeed no matter how good you are. DCE, Jake and Turbo have been carrying the Sea Eagles since 2016. Take them out and Manly would have the spoon.
Lol take those 3 out and Manly would have had 3 million in cap money to play with. Let’s say, Hynes, finucane and Drinkwater. With money to spare for other positions, let’s say hooker. Lol definitely not getting the spoon.
The real question for the Dce fanboys is do you support Manly? Or do you support the Dce retirement fund? Cause as captain he’s lead us to sweet FA…..
Rocky
Bencher
Where did I say Cherry was a bad player? In fact i said he was a really good player.
But you aren't going to convince me he makes his teammates better or is an inspirational captain.
And that's not his fault. That's just who he is by now
But Manly need to adjust to those facts accordingly and they haven't.
Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
You're thinking in the here and now as so many seem to make the mistake about. Those players are on lower incomes because they are on the way up to the top echalon. Do you think they will be on low money for long once they reach rep status. Hynes is only 24 and yet to play a major rep game. Do you really think you will get this kid for a song with his next contract if he gets rep duties. Same with 25 year old Drinkwater. Finucane is 31 has hardly set the world alight with rep appearances on recently. What you're doing is cherry picking (excuse the pun) to justify your position with players either not equal standard or yet to make their mark.Has nothing got through about having middle rane players over recent years. Manly had to pay back end contracts to ensure they had the players to win in 2011.
Hynes and Drinkwater are good players on the rise, but if they stand out more, their salary demands will hit the roof, just as always happens with top tier players. Top tier players arent paid for nothing. They are almost always the best in the game and demand big bucks. You cant do without them unless you want the spoon. You're not going to succeed with second rate players across the park. You'll always need those special players that make things happen. DCE and Turbo are the only two at Manly so far that make that happen and thats why they get rep postings, high ratings in various comps such as Dally M and Fantasy Coach. And those decisions are made by those who are experienced in the game.
Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
Depends on the players around him. I've already conceded he's not a great ball player. That's not his strength. And I disagree that he's not inspirational. Have you forgotten already how he and Turbo dominated Manly's attack in 2021. Check their tries, try assists etc. Way above any others in the team
Ahhh no. 2016 we could of theoretically signed let’s say Townsend and Maloney instead of the over paid merchant, 700k and 800k respectively. How did they go? Ohhhh won a premiership at the Sharks. For every timeline you have, I have players we could of signed.
And again way off on current players. Nico Hynes signed for Shark for 1.8 mil over 3 years. That takes him to the end of 24’ yesss please. Smart business from the Sharks and would theoretically give us an extra 1.6mil to spend on another player over 3 years.
And as for the 2011 premiership, was on the back of our golden generation. Remember them? Stewart bros, J Lyon, Matai, Foran, Ballin and on it goes.Jason Taylor could of been our halfback and we would of won. And every single one of those guys took unders to stay together……. Until the merchant showed up and had a little cry and wouldn’t show up to training until he got a better contract.
And lastly, i definitely don’t care about SuperCoach, lol wtf?
How Many premierships has your your best Manly halfback ever ( your words) LEAD us to? ZERO!!!! You can babble on as much as you want about SuperCoach or the qld origin team or whatever, but you can’t change history. And history shows he’s lead us to zero.
Anyway had the same arguments over and over. We all want the same thing, Manly to win. Since 2016, I and many others have stated we won’t win another premiership with him in the team. Nothing iv seen in 9 years has changed my mind. But I desperately want to be wrong, I want him to lead us to glory, I just don’t think he can or will. History will be the ultimate judge.
So you watched our season i presume
dce 21 points and foran 0 is a reflection of our season,or the impact each player had , yes / no . Forget tom, last year, as a manly fan , not even close.?
it lacks integrity really when its mapped out like that.
Foran was head and shoulders above dce this season, as a half, as a leader, consistency.
foran on the right gave oku room, he steamrolled more than usual
yes/ no time again.
Its not how you bent it at all. Oku smashes people every week from a standing start, TRUE STORY it was just nice as a MANLY fan , seeing him used differently. If you didnt see that , well,………maybe you had something stuck in your eye that fortnight, it happens ,
but foran gave oku space and he ran direct lines.
anyway good chat, just 2 amused guys talking manly.
Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
Paragraph One: Conjecture. You dont know that. We had three major players at the end of their careers on big money probably back ended in Brett Stewart, Jamie Lyon and Steve Matai. Each were sidelined for extensive periods in that year, meaning Manly were virtually paying them to sit on the sideline. That's where Manly's money problems started. Matai played 8 games that season, Stewart 11 games and Jamie Lyon played on virtually one leg for 17 games in 2016
Paragraph 2: You didnt read properly what I wrote. I said by implication his NEXT contract, and who is to say Cronulla dont upgrade his present agreement
Paragraph 3: No. Many of those players were not playing with unders, their contracts were back ended so their last year or two were bigger money. As mentioned that's what got Manly into strife especially when Matai, Lyon and Stewart each suffered ongoing injuries in their last year or two thus making signing new players as replacement very difficult.
Paragraph 4: Whether you care for Supercoach or not is not the point. Unlike how we all look at players, those processes do it by specific actions on the field, positive and negative. It is far more accurate because its based on stats not impressions.
Paragraph 5: I think you will find DCE was an instrumental element in Manly winning in 2011 and was Man of the Match in Manly's loss in 2014. And its not about leading us to premierships. Its about leading the side and being instrumental in as many wins as can be achieved. And if you look back not just in the past 6 months you'll see DCE was significantly responsible for a large number of Manly's wins over the years
Paragraph 6: You're right. Its over and over again with the same arguments based on conjecture, rather than statistics, which are a much more accurate means of determining a players worth
Lol Disagree on all your points. that’s how YOU view those points. And I respectfully disagree on all fronts. No point in arguing mate it’s the off season just relax, we aren’t going to change each other’s mind…
In 2016 I had a bet with 2 posters on here that Dce wouldn’t take us to a grand final as captain by 23’. I think it’s safe to say iv won that bet. They no longer seem to post here…… now maybe you want to put your money where your mouth is @Bearfax ?
You think he’s Manlys greatest ever Halfback, yes? And obviously as the greatest EVER, obviously he’s more than capable of leading us to another GF?
I think that’s laughable, not even in the top 50 Manly best ever players.
So, let’s make it fun…….. If Dce leads us to a GF by the end of 25’ I’ll buy both of us tickets to the GF? I’ll pay for tickets, food , drink( beers or soft drinks).
If I win you buy me a Manly retro jersey of my choice?
And I’ll just say I want to lose, I want us to be at the GF. I want you to be giving it to me all day….
Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
Though I admit to conjecture, I take notice of factual information through stats. I was trained to do that. In a court of law opinions are irrelevant for example. Eye witness accts are important but not as important as factual data. And eye witness accts though relevant, are only such through stated accts of observation. Conjecture is dismissed entirely. So opinions are meaningless because they are always the most biased of evidence and often also based on anecdotal material which is no better than describing a player has poor handling because you observe him to drop the ball from time to time.
Soooo, no to the proposed bet then?
Mal Cochrane
I'm not really Mal Cochrane...
OK, can we stop the defence that it was not DCE'S fault he got offered big $$. I believe we are all in agreeance with that. If that is put on the table to you, and you like it, then take it.
But keep in mind this takes up salary cap, the more you take, the less experience/talent you get around you. But you are paid this salary with the expectation, and as captain, you are the cool head to lead the team through the ups and downs of a long season.
If a company decides they require 4 engineers for the next 5 years and have allocated a yearly budget for their salaries, they could get 4 engineers of approx equal ability/knowledge, or, hire a gun on a salary 200% greater then the 3 remaining staff, approximately splitting the remaining budget between the 3.
Now if you are the gun engineer with the big salary, it comes with the territory that you are brought in as the go to man to lead the team through projects, provide solutions, the go to man to remain composed and lead the team through issues impacting service performance and orchestrate and drive a plan through the team to mitigate/correct/resolve the issue.
This gun put up their hand for the role on a higher salary, and with that, expectations to perform at a high, consistent level. The one others look to for direction to work through the issue the team find themselves in.
I once loved watching DCE, particularly how difficult he was to tackle and he fended off whilst taking a backward step, breaking the tackle by putting the opposite player off balance. As he become the leader of the team, he has slowly but continually frustrated me with his performance and decisions. I didn't want to be frustrated by him, it just happened.
In regards to the above example of employees in the workplace, DCE just doesn't have the package for a high salary earner, and is more reckless than most in the team when a stable influence is required. He is not the man for the job, and unfortunately, his salary did the team no favours, nor also if the club is managing the cap poorly with other players.
But this is about DCE, and I dare say Turbo needs to increase game time otherwise unfortunately, although we have been patient, he will come under similar scrutiny next year, if not already.
But keep in mind this takes up salary cap, the more you take, the less experience/talent you get around you. But you are paid this salary with the expectation, and as captain, you are the cool head to lead the team through the ups and downs of a long season.
If a company decides they require 4 engineers for the next 5 years and have allocated a yearly budget for their salaries, they could get 4 engineers of approx equal ability/knowledge, or, hire a gun on a salary 200% greater then the 3 remaining staff, approximately splitting the remaining budget between the 3.
Now if you are the gun engineer with the big salary, it comes with the territory that you are brought in as the go to man to lead the team through projects, provide solutions, the go to man to remain composed and lead the team through issues impacting service performance and orchestrate and drive a plan through the team to mitigate/correct/resolve the issue.
This gun put up their hand for the role on a higher salary, and with that, expectations to perform at a high, consistent level. The one others look to for direction to work through the issue the team find themselves in.
I once loved watching DCE, particularly how difficult he was to tackle and he fended off whilst taking a backward step, breaking the tackle by putting the opposite player off balance. As he become the leader of the team, he has slowly but continually frustrated me with his performance and decisions. I didn't want to be frustrated by him, it just happened.
In regards to the above example of employees in the workplace, DCE just doesn't have the package for a high salary earner, and is more reckless than most in the team when a stable influence is required. He is not the man for the job, and unfortunately, his salary did the team no favours, nor also if the club is managing the cap poorly with other players.
But this is about DCE, and I dare say Turbo needs to increase game time otherwise unfortunately, although we have been patient, he will come under similar scrutiny next year, if not already.
Lucky you pointed out my lack of research because no one here has ever quoted his achievements from 8+ years ago as justification for the logic that he must still be a good player now. If it makes it easier I'll agree wholeheartedly with you that he was a good player up to 2014, when he was part of a very, very good Manly side. I'm more interested in his Dally M achievements from 2016 onwards, the season he commenced his current deal, that was what my original question was that you conveniently ignored. Remember the Dally M judges are the experts here and judging by this statement "In most Dally M calculations he has generally, along with Turbo, been near the top in most years." I expect he has had some top 5 finishes or at least another halfback of the year award or two ?? Now I know you only like facts and no conjecture, so tell me how many Dally M awards he has won since the commencement of the 2016 season. He rarely misses games remember, that's another of his strong points, so injury is never going to rob him of points in any given season. Let me know what you find out so we can be both sure what the experts have thought of his consistency and dominance over the last 7 seasons.
As for quoting Supercoach points as justification of your perception he is elite. That's a bit out there and not a theory I would subscribe to having played the game for over a decade, but not without some basis I suppose. Not sure if you play the game or not, but in terms of average points per game he ranked in high 20's spot overall in terms of average points per game (allowing for a couple of high scoring 1 or 2 game wonders). In terms of halfbacks he was 5th overall, which isn't too bad, but well behind Cleary and Hynes. Don't recall in any past seasons him being up there as a "must have" either to be honest. He's always been one of those mid range sort of players taht goes on good little runs here and there, but has rarely been considered a season long keeper at half.
You also like to state that you have been trained to only consider facts and then make statements like the "NRL stats" back up your opinion of his elite player status. So we are clear, can you give me the list of stats that you consider the best indicators of a players ability or talent ? Just so I can look them up and see how DCE went.
The story behind DCE's contract is folk lore here, everyone understands what happened and no one is blaming him for taking overs. Who wouldn't ? The issue I have is those who constantly try and justify the fact that we are paying "overs" for the guy and are not getting value for money from him by using the logic of "he must be a good player because we are paying him a lot". I don't think the guy is by any stretch rated in the game's elite. He is a solid halfback who shines in dominant teams because of his playing style. That probably explains his performances at rep level which tend to be a bit better than at club level. Although I will say he had a small window there between Cronks retirement and the emergence of Cleary where he was the Australian halfback, I don't see him keeping Cleary out of the Kangaroo jersey for any important games during World Cup, or over the next few years barring injury. The "merit" side selected during the last two covid seasons had Cleary at half over DCE. He has hung onto his incumbency through lack of international football, not through performance. I'll concede he is the best halfback that is eligible for Queensland, but it's a shallow talent pool if we are being honest. Has he really dominated in that arena though ?? I seem to recall one MOM performance in his time as Queensland half.
Perceptions get distorted on both sides of this debate. Is my perception of him distorted ? I don't think so, but you and others clearly think so. Here is my perception, which I'm quite happy to share. You can then share your perception if you feel like it. This is post 2016, so we are clear we are leaving anything out prior to his current 8 year deal.
DCE is on the whole a solid NRL halfback, who under the right circumstances can produce some very good football in patches. He isn't worth $1.2mil per year and he isn't a consistent performer. We won't win a premiership next year, and therefore he will go through that 8 year contract period without delivering what he was paid very good money to deliver. A trophy. Without knowing what he is being paid for his 2 year extension, I also highly doubt that we will win a premiership in those two years if he is our starting halfback.
Schuster master-class that game. God I hope it happens next year.This was a weekend of perfection in 2021 ! Enjoy the show !If football was art, this game was the Mona Lisa ! hahaha
Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
What I'm trying to express is not to dismiss what you say but to impress upon you and others that your opinions are biased and therefore not reality. Same applies to my opinions. None of them are right and should never be purported to be right. They are just personal perspectives based on how we interpret the game. If you want a truer perspective on the game you have to examine not only the opinions of those who are experienced in playing the game but especially the stats that describe the specific performances of each player. Its not exact, as no assessment is exact. But individual perspectives are the least accurate in determining the worth of a player. If you believe exclusively your own perspective, you are not being honest with yourself
Of course it’s opinion and personal perspective, I think that goes without saying. As iv said many times it’s only my opinion, which equates to nothing in the grand scheme of things. But, it’s a forum, based on personal opinions and views. I think your forgetting that. Now for my personal opinion ( means fuk all) based on the FACT that Dce has LEAD us to nothing in the last 9 years as captain ( not up for debate as that’s fact- you love stats) , I think he should be punted quick smart. Now remember, just my opinion and perspective. 😉
Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
Mate I haven't forgotten that but you must understand I was a parole officer for 34 years, a union head for ten and ran a half way house for street teens for 18 months. I see things in very evidence based perspectives and very pragmatically. I respect my perspective is just how I see things and for that reason I seek evidence not to reinforce what I come to accept but to guide my opinions. Gets frustrating when I read unsubstantiated claims
Lol again that’s your Opinion and perspective based on facts you seek out. Also you also seem to leave out the FACT your boy has LEAD us to nothing. Everything you say is based on your perspective, as is mine. The fact you’ve been a parole officer means nothing in regards to this subject. And no offence certainly doesn’t give you a better perspective than others.
On a personal view no doubt a long and successful career- congratulations. I mean that.
Now just to play your fact game, how many Dally M of the year has Daly won? Zero. Not Dally M halfback of the year. Lol see what I did there mate? Chose a fact to support my own perspective to support my own claim that he’s not up to it. Just like you have. 😉
Enjoy the off season mate.
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