OK, Des should put Lyon back to 5/8th to make Orford stand up. Is that it? And Dan, I didn't say when he's supported by a player he's better.  My point is that he's been the same ordinary player all the way through.  It's just that Lyon made him look good by doing what Orford should do, ie better kicking, better ball movement, smarter plays..I actually think Des should bench the guy, put him on the interchange, to see just where the play should go. Have Ballin play the full 80 and LeStrange could start at 7 or one of the others that posters have mentioned. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Side without Orford thoughts ?
- Thread starter eagle_predator
- Start date
No, my point was that he is better when supported.
Its all about pressure. If you have a forward pack going no where, and 1 person having to try and make plays with that forward pack not allowing him the room, then trying to get the ball out to a makeshift backline who are still learning to run the plays, and you take away the main strike weapon of Stewart, what do you expect?
You could put Thurston out there the past 4 weeks and the result would have been the same
Its all about pressure. If you have a forward pack going no where, and 1 person having to try and make plays with that forward pack not allowing him the room, then trying to get the ball out to a makeshift backline who are still learning to run the plays, and you take away the main strike weapon of Stewart, what do you expect?
You could put Thurston out there the past 4 weeks and the result would have been the same
orfords last tackle option is too predictable,a kick,that rarely comes off,id like to see him run the ball more on last tackle option,in sying that i wouldnt be the least bit phased if him or bailey for that matter was dropped,but to put it bluntly it wont happen,des will keep bailey and orful as the combination unless bailey has to move to centre to compensate for our injuries.
Crap Dan, Thurston would have won us two of those games. Orful's crap kicking lost us two. My point is that once the ball gets anywhere near the try line, Orful presents the wrong play option and as a consequence the players around lose heart and confidence. It's a visible thing. Heads drop. If you're at the game you can feel it.
DSM5 link said:
Manly's pack have been plying much like the cowboys of last year...>Thurston couldn't win them games then.....It would be the same result.
How do you honestly expect a halfback to do anything with the backline as it has been and props struggling to make even 50 metres?
Have to have a bit of a snigger reading this
About 1 year ago, the Lyon at 5/8 experiment was an abysmal failure, and he was an over rated waste of money along with Orford
Move along 1 year and all of a sudden Lyon is the god of 5/8s
Bailey has played a total of about 140mins at best so far this season at 5/8 and already being written off. As I was saying last season, there were signs there with Lyon, and I have seen them in the past with Bailey as well, that he can be a decent 5/8. Hasler and Toovey were internationals in the halves so I would back their judgement too
About 1 year ago, the Lyon at 5/8 experiment was an abysmal failure, and he was an over rated waste of money along with Orford
Move along 1 year and all of a sudden Lyon is the god of 5/8s
Bailey has played a total of about 140mins at best so far this season at 5/8 and already being written off. As I was saying last season, there were signs there with Lyon, and I have seen them in the past with Bailey as well, that he can be a decent 5/8. Hasler and Toovey were internationals in the halves so I would back their judgement too
Remember though, Lyon was 'broken' according to nearly every media outlet and forum for about 18 months, and Bailey was bought reasonably early in the piece last season
Players are far too quickly written off, I have seen him play some good games for Newcastle at 5/8 prior to us signing him last season, and Des has obviously seen that too
Players are far too quickly written off, I have seen him play some good games for Newcastle at 5/8 prior to us signing him last season, and Des has obviously seen that too
I have no problems with bailey.... I was with you KE last year in excitement when they announced we had signed him. He'll go good at 6... needs time like lyon did. All good.
My beef is with Orford.... his "leadership" and last tackle options are absolutely killing us. He's a seasoned campaigner. Having bailey in the team DOES NOT change the way Orford plays.. he still plays first receiver... he still has right of way when directing attack and in my view he is doing a very piss poor job of it. All bailey does is give Orford another option which someone of his genius should be able to use when best suits.
You can say what you like about the forwards going forward but sundays game was a great example of what is happening and also what DSM5 is saying.
We started that game well. Forwards were going forward.... we were completing sets and we were camped down their end early.
The forwards were doing their job at this point... then after 20 tackles in the opposition 20 and the majority of the first 10 minutes being played on their line... orford came up with 1 try. I'll give him credit it was a good kick... didn't take a genius to see it but good on him.
The next 5 mins of the game went a long way to killing us yesterday. We were still camped down there. Our forwards had got us down there on the attack again and Orford repeatedly came up with disgustingly bad plays/kicks to release any pressure. Â As DSM5 is saying the forwards dropped their heads after that and away went the knights. As the game went on orford last tackle plays got worse and worse.... a very amateur like performance yesterday.
My beef is with Orford.... his "leadership" and last tackle options are absolutely killing us. He's a seasoned campaigner. Having bailey in the team DOES NOT change the way Orford plays.. he still plays first receiver... he still has right of way when directing attack and in my view he is doing a very piss poor job of it. All bailey does is give Orford another option which someone of his genius should be able to use when best suits.
You can say what you like about the forwards going forward but sundays game was a great example of what is happening and also what DSM5 is saying.
We started that game well. Forwards were going forward.... we were completing sets and we were camped down their end early.
The forwards were doing their job at this point... then after 20 tackles in the opposition 20 and the majority of the first 10 minutes being played on their line... orford came up with 1 try. I'll give him credit it was a good kick... didn't take a genius to see it but good on him.
The next 5 mins of the game went a long way to killing us yesterday. We were still camped down there. Our forwards had got us down there on the attack again and Orford repeatedly came up with disgustingly bad plays/kicks to release any pressure. Â As DSM5 is saying the forwards dropped their heads after that and away went the knights. As the game went on orford last tackle plays got worse and worse.... a very amateur like performance yesterday.
missing_something
Bencher
Dan link said:
My Nan was a world class hooker, but eventually your times up and your best is behind you and it's time for a change
Dan link said:
Because Steve Bell, who most also said was past his used by date, moved on
Prior to the last 4 games of last season you would have hardly gotten anybody on here to say they were a proven combination
In this day and age footy sides have to change. I would have been more than happy to see Lyon continue at 6, but by parting with a top centre like Bell, and having pretty skinny depth in that area, Bailey at 6 and Lyon at centre is probably the best opiton we had pre season and definitely was once the season started, however Bailey has hardly played 6 due to all the injuries during the games
lsz link said:
really? No DSM is real I have met him all be it briefly at Brookie a few years back, whilst I was standing with MB and CW.
I have no alter egos on this site, though I imagine others do. I barely have enough time to keep the site going as it is, and with 23,000 posts to my name and 10,000 or whatever to DSM, jeez I would never get anything done.
So yeah, he is another person, sometimes incredibly frustrating to discuss things with sometimes not. But always entertaining
eagle_predator
Bencher
Orford is 31 what if he gets a pretty bad injury and he is out for a length of time say 8 wks ? I'm not saying we should let him go we won the GF with Ox & Lyon in the halves and great forward pack.
We need to start looking a head a little shouldn't we at least start slowly blooding Trent Hodkinson & Daly Cherry Evans giving them some game time in the top grade when ever possible what are our options if Ox was to be side lined Bailey 7 Lyon 5/8 ?
I'm sure Bailey will come good and turn out to be a good signing and then there's Jamie Lyon when he does head back to the ESL which i hope we can keep him in maroon and white as he's a bloody champion.
We need to start looking a head a little shouldn't we at least start slowly blooding Trent Hodkinson & Daly Cherry Evans giving them some game time in the top grade when ever possible what are our options if Ox was to be side lined Bailey 7 Lyon 5/8 ?
I'm sure Bailey will come good and turn out to be a good signing and then there's Jamie Lyon when he does head back to the ESL which i hope we can keep him in maroon and white as he's a bloody champion.
If Bailey isnt delivering at 5/8 I dont think he will be a joke at halfback.
I agree we should give some of the younger guys a sniff, we may as well do it whilst we arent looking too good anyway.
With Stewart back I dont imagine we will see many major changes in our roster for this weekend though
I agree we should give some of the younger guys a sniff, we may as well do it whilst we arent looking too good anyway.
With Stewart back I dont imagine we will see many major changes in our roster for this weekend though
DSM, you stated Thurston would have gotten us home, well he didn't look too flash last night, even a nice little kick out on the full at a crucial point
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