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Uber Eagle 72

Reserve Grader
Premium Member
God or what ever you may believe in help us all if the two ladies depicted in the YouTube video above are truly representative of the Head space of the average undecided voter in Australia. I don’t just mean this in context to the voice…..
 

SeaEagleRock8

Sea Eagle Lach
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Their Lands? I'm sorry but that was a very long time ago. I can't control and am not responsible what happened in the past.
Just on that argument that 'it's all long ago, get over it we're all together now etc etc'
Yes people get over it and feel together if if they have got over it and do feel together... but it's plain that has never happened so far here.

Continuing damaging effects from European colonisation are reflected in the fact First Nations people don't experience the same hardships at the same rate as other groups in Australia - instead, at a far higher rate. If they had attained some sort of parity statistically with everyone else there probably wouldn't be any push for self determination, or a Voice, or even for any special measures?
 

SeaEagleRock8

Sea Eagle Lach
Premium Member
Tipping Member
God or what ever you may believe in help us all if the two ladies depicted in the YouTube video above are truly representative of the Head space of the average undecided voter in Australia. I don’t just mean this in context to the voice…..
Haha indeed! My first thought was that it was disparaging but then I thought using young women may have been a clever attempt to soften the blow, because really young women support Yes in far greater numbers - it is actually old men probably more like that in their thinking! @:D
 
It's a no for me on the basis that there is absolutely no information on how the body is set up, made up, powers etc... So basically vote YES and after success through consultation of various people blah blah blah the Voice body will be set up.

You would think for such a momentus occasion they would have done their homework and presented something with substance we could understand.

It's a shame because I think if this was the case it would have been a unanimous YES
 

SeaEagleRock8

Sea Eagle Lach
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Couple of quick points Tragic

. The aboriginal people themselves are divided over this issue
most polling I've seen shows 80% plus of First Nations support Yes.
As @lsz mentioned earlier, the media coverage distorts this.


A very serious matter is changing our constitution and frankly the campaign has not been informative enough. The majority of people I have spoken to don't feel they understand the goals and benefits that will follow a "Yes" vote. If the outcome is in effect "No" it doesn't mean that a majority of Australians are racist.
The Constitution is an anachronism, the British monarchy via the governor general can dissolve the Houses of representatives any time they 'think fit'!!! And what do you make of s25?!!?

Point being, the change will be largely symbolic, but making the Voice permanent, and formally acknowledging First Peoples, is significant for that reason. The Parliament of the day can still make laws about how the Voice works, whether to fund it and how much, and can ignore any and all of its representations!

The potential benefits are better use of funds - as you point out, govt decisions so far have included some horrors. And you're right, a No vote won't mean Australians are racist. But it will mean the status quo continues, and no serious commentator has suggested there's anything good about that!
 

Brookie Bob

"I come back to you now at the turn of the tide"
Hey Bob - there are some good reads on here the last couple of days. I agree that context and history is important and I wouldn't say that British settlement was solely based on racism. However, they new what they were doing given they were experts in the slave trade (as others were). Cook had reported back after his 1770 visit, that there were only black natives on the east coast. And whether it was simply a state of mind at the time, they (and other Europeans) considered themselves superior to such people. If X considers Y an inferior race, to me that's racism. They didn't come back here with soldiers and convicts because they thought the indigenous population were equals and would simply invite them in for tea.

And yes, why they did abolish slavery (eventually) that doesn't mean they weren't racists. The US also abolished slavery and I would say it became the bastion of race equality. Just as Terra Nullius was used as an excuse to take ownership of the land here, there were "scientific reasons" found to justify their racism post slavery.

I feel I should note here that I'm not one of these self hating white Australians that some people like to suggest people like myself are when we discuss this kind of thing. Am I happy I live in this country? Absolutely. Do I want to live anywhere else? Absolutely not. Do I think it's the greatest country in the World? Of course not. There's no such place in my mind.

We have many "issues" just like other countries but we are certainly a lot better off than some. For now. But for me, history is important. And I don't just feel this way about Australian aboriginals. Indigenous people across the world have been shat on over history. And I guess somewhat hypercritically, it bothers me mostly post the Enlightenment period coz we supposedly all became more civilised. And yet all that happened was technology made it easier to take land from people in the name of expansion and yes, racism.

Anyway, I'm sure there are history scholars out there that can correct a lot of what I'm going on about. Bottom line for me though is that we don't need to feel guilty or responsible for Europeans colonising this land but we damn well should acknowledge that the way it was done was pretty brutal. And a lot of that brutality was race based. Again, the majority of settlers weren't sitting down with indigenous people and saying - so, how about those Sea Eagles.

The consequence of dismantling a culture, of murdering untold numbers of people, of taking their home and forcing them on to reserves, of legislating racist policies is not something that can be reversed by simply telling indigenous people, it's about time you just accepted things and integrated. As I mentioned yesterday, I have no idea if this proposal will lead to significant change for the chronic "problems" that exist for indigenous people but I certainly think it's worth giving it a chance.
Under the above parameters (considering that you are superior to others), everyone on the planet in 1788 - and now - is racist. Including you and me. And it wasn't ,and isn't now just a European thing.

Some general-isms:
  • The Czechs thinks they are better than the Slovakians
  • The Japanese think they are better than the Koreans - and Chinese
  • The Indonesians think they are better than the Papuans
  • The Argentinians think they are better than the Chileans and Peruvians
  • The English think that they are better than the Irish, the Scots and Welsh
  • The French think that they are better than the Spanish
  • The Russians think that they are better than the Poles
  • The Samoans think they are better than the Fijians.
  • The South Africans (black and white) think they are better than the Zimbabweans.

And so forth and so on - and in reverse as well.

All you have to be is 'different' - and probably weaker in a military / economic / technology / science way - and your region will be a target.

All the murder, enslavement, dispossession etc that you're thinking of here in Australia - has been done everywhere the world over since the dawn of time, and in an even more targeted, brutal and systematic way, if you can imagine it. Have a chat with some Armenians or Kurds at some point.


Bottom line for me though is that we don't need to feel guilty or responsible for Europeans colonising this land but we damn well should acknowledge that the way it was done was pretty brutal

True. True. True.

Re the brutality - my only point was - it was the way things were done then - by everyone, and many conquering nations were 'far more brutal'.

Doesn't make it right; but again - context, context, context.
 

Seagles68

Bencher
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Bu
Under the above parameters (considering that you are superior to others), everyone on the planet in 1788 - and now - is racist. Including you and me. And it wasn't ,and isn't now just a European thing.

Some general-isms:
  • The Czechs thinks they are better than the Slovakians
  • The Japanese think they are better than the Koreans - and Chinese
  • The Indonesians think they are better than the Papuans
  • The Argentinians think they are better than the Chileans and Peruvians
  • The English think that they are better than the Irish, the Scots and Welsh
  • The French think that they are better than the Spanish
  • The Russians think that they are better than the Poles
  • The Samoans think they are better than the Fijians.
  • The South Africans (black and white) think they are better than the Zimbabweans.

And so forth and so on - and in reverse as well.

All you have to be is 'different' - and probably weaker in a military / economic / technology / science way - and your region will be a target.

All the murder, enslavement, dispossession etc that you're thinking of here in Australia - has been done everywhere the world over since the dawn of time, and in an even more targeted, brutal and systematic way, if you can imagine it. Have a chat with some Armenians or Kurds at some point.




True. True. True.

Re the brutality - my only point was - it was the way things were done then - by everyone, and many conquering nations were 'far more brutal'.

Doesn't make it right; but again - context, context, context.
But I don't think I'm more superior than another race. Am I missing something when you say "you and me?
 

Brookie Bob

"I come back to you now at the turn of the tide"
Bu

But I don't think I'm more superior than another race. Am I missing something when you say "you and me?
Any time any of us has thought that we are better than another human being we're guilty - and we all have.
 

SeaEagleRock8

Sea Eagle Lach
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Any time any of us has thought that we are better than another human being we're guilty - and we all have.
Bob you’ve made a highly compelling case that throughout history humans have tended to use their power to dominate oppress and exploit others!
But do you relate this to the referendum issues somehow?
 

The '47ers

Your resident two-headed Queenslander
I wonder if there was anyone here before the Aboriginals arrived. Like with the Moriori in New Zealand before the Maoris.
 

Seagles68

Bencher
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Any time any of us has thought that we are better than another human being we're guilty - and we all have.
I agree with much of what you've written Bob but there's a huge difference, in my mind, of having a thought you might be "better" than someone morally, ethically, culturally or, you know, Parramatta supporters and that of someone's race. But maybe I'm still missing what it is you're saying in relation to this referendum and the indigenous history.
 

Brookie Bob

"I come back to you now at the turn of the tide"
Bob you’ve made a highly compelling case that throughout history humans have tended to use their power to dominate oppress and exploit others!
But do you relate this to the referendum issues somehow?
My points were not made to specifically address the referendum per se, but the backdrop that gave birth to the referendum (and has been referenced by others on this forum):





I like to do wide-ranging research (yes, Ray Martin, I know how to Google something), and I'm also not completely convinced on the 'we've been here 60,000 years story'. I've heard of evidence to the contrary.............that never makes it to the press, strangely. My science-background spider-sense is tingling....

The first time I heard that one, it was 40,000 years, I guess in these days of increasing inflation it had to get to 60,000 years.

"I hear 60,000 years, who'll give me 70? I heard 70, who'll give me 80,000 years? Sold, to the man with the goatee in the Rising Sun Workshop cafe sipping a chai latte!!"
 
An interesting stat out of today's official reports;

63% of young Australians are more likely to vote Yes, and thereby for change.

Only 25% of "old farts" (like me) being 55 + will vote Yes.

It shows that old prejudices, handed down from generation to generation still stick with that group. I will vote Yes, but I remember my Grandparent's racist attitude.

Fortunately my parents were better informed and educated me accordingly.

European interracial prejudices go back centuries, exacerbated by religious beliefs; hence the never ending conflict.

We are a New lucky country, by comparison and have an ideal opportunity to get out of that perennial problem by voting for the Yes proposition.
 

Brookie Bob

"I come back to you now at the turn of the tide"
An interesting stat out of today's official reports;

63% of young Australians are more likely to vote Yes, and thereby for change.

Only 25% of "old farts" (like me) being 55 + will vote Yes.

It shows that old prejudices, handed down from generation to generation still stick with that group. I will vote Yes, but I remember my Grandparent's racist attitude.

Fortunately my parents were better informed and educated me accordingly.

European interracial prejudices go back centuries, exacerbated by religious beliefs; hence the never ending conflict.

We are a New lucky country, by comparison and have an ideal opportunity to get out of that perennial problem by voting for the Yes proposition.
Depends upon the poll, I guess.

"For the first time, support among younger voters has also fallen below 50 per cent and the number of 18 to 34 year-olds saying they intended to vote no rose eight percentage points to 49 per cent.

If that result is reflected on polling day, there will not be a single demographic category in which the Yes vote outnumbers the No case.

Even university-educated voters, traditionally strongly in favour of the Voice, were now also for the first time more likely to vote No, with a nine-point decline in support to 45 per cent."


"It shows that old prejudices, handed down from generation to generation still stick with that group. I will vote Yes, but I remember my Grandparent's racist attitude." - if you want to get a group offside - tell them that they are prejudiced and racist. Tar everyone in a certain demographic with the same brush, and don't give them the benefit of having done their homework, and not agreeing 100% with you.
 
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MuzztheEagle

Bencher
God or what ever you may believe in help us all if the two ladies depicted in the YouTube video above are truly representative of the Head space of the average undecided voter in Australia. I don’t just mean this in context to the voice…..
Briggs and a few other notables had a music festival in Shepparton over the weekend to support the yes vote.....Have a listen to the following from the 27 minute mark (I'm sorry its another lefty source)...They actually managed to find the two from the video in the wild :rofl::banghead:
 

MuzztheEagle

Bencher
It's a no for me on the basis that there is absolutely no information on how the body is set up, made up, powers etc... So basically vote YES and after success through consultation of various people blah blah blah the Voice body will be set up.

You would think for such a momentus occasion they would have done their homework and presented something with substance we could understand.

It's a shame because I think if this was the case it would have been a unanimous YES
It's all here:
Or at least this forms the framework for what Albo intends to put to the parliament to vote on. It's worth noting that this report was commissioned by Ken Wyatt under the previous Liberal government to provide such a legislated (but not constitutionally enshrined) voice to parliament. This doesn't mean that the recommendations (and Albo's preferred structure of the voice) of the report become part of the constitution....they don't. And, once the legislation reaches parliament (on the structure and workings of the voice) it can be voted down, or overturned by the high court should it breach the constitution. And.....even if it should get through, and it doesn't work and no one likes it, then the party responsible can be voted out at the next election, or made to change their policies so that "the Voice" is comprised of a single person (I dunno.....maybe Jacinta Price acting like an indigenous GG) who tells us how well we are all doing.
There's even some fun little flow charts to lay it all out ;p
1696822718705.png

*I do think Albo is a complete knob for making such a mess of this - which is pretty much how I feel about the majority of the Labor party of the last 30 years. But that's a reason to vote the clowns out at the next election - not to vote no to this.
 
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SeaEagleRock8

Sea Eagle Lach
Premium Member
Tipping Member
"It shows that old prejudices, handed down from generation to generation still stick with that group. I will vote Yes, but I remember my Grandparent's racist attitude." - if you want to get a group offside - tell them that they are prejudiced and racist.
I didn't take his post to be saying that, simply that as generations roll on their attitudes usually evolve with the changing times. Many of us here (including me) for example were born in a time Indigenous people weren't even counted in the census. And that was a hangover from the days of federation, and the change in beliefs and attitudes from then till now is huge.

Anyway as you say there may be no 'demographic' with majority support by polling day, although a late swing to Yes wouldn't surprise. But from the start I've personally been less interested in how many are Yes v No, and more interested in the reasons why different people are thinking of leaning one way or the other. Most reasons I've seen aren't logical at all.

Either way I appreciate you, and a couple of others, for bothering to put up some discussion points, I'm well aware it's not easy to write down clearly why one thinks a certain way, mainly because it involves having to think.
 
Depends upon the poll, I guess.

"For the first time, support among younger voters has also fallen below 50 per cent and the number of 18 to 34 year-olds saying they intended to vote no rose eight percentage points to 49 per cent.

If that result is reflected on polling day, there will not be a single demographic category in which the Yes vote outnumbers the No case.

Even university-educated voters, traditionally strongly in favour of the Voice, were now also for the first time more likely to vote No, with a nine-point decline in support to 45 per cent."


"It shows that old prejudices, handed down from generation to generation still stick with that group. I will vote Yes, but I remember my Grandparent's racist attitude." - if you want to get a group offside - tell them that they are prejudiced and racist. Tar everyone in a certain demographic with the same brush, and don't give them the benefit of having done their homework, and not agreeing 100% with you.
Bob, I take it on note that your polling results came from news.com.au ? Yet, that thought exposes another of my prejudices.

I don't expect that another 75% of that demographic will change their vote, no matter how much tar and feathers may be applied. I personally don't think the Yes vote will win.

I do hope, however, that after the exercise a few feathers fall off, otherwise the nation will hare to wait another 20 years for us all (including me) for the tar to dry on the perch and consequently, are not for counting.
 

lsz

First Grader
Staff member
Based on nothing but my own views I do not believe polling is representative anymore / as accurate as it used to be due to the way the data is now collected. As an example Newspoll is owned by News Limited (first danger sign!)

Their polls are run by yougov. For interest I signed up to see the process..interestingly when it came to gender there were only two options....which instantly alienates a large amount of "youth" voters.

To sign up all I had to provide was year of birth, gender, postcode and an email address. I can not participate in election polls and be rewarded with gift cards after a certain time.


This is not to discuss the merits of the voice (I am all yes and if you are in doubt look it up - everyone did their "research" for COVID surely you can do the same here) rather to say I would not place all my trust in polls no matter what they are saying...let alone full disclosure of all the questions asked
 
Team P W L PD Pts
17 14 3 141 34
17 12 5 118 30
17 11 6 125 28
18 11 7 209 26
18 10 7 97 25
17 9 8 63 24
17 9 8 46 24
18 10 8 3 24
17 9 8 -56 24
17 8 9 -91 22
18 8 10 25 20
17 7 10 -90 20
18 8 10 -97 20
18 7 10 -34 19
17 6 11 -89 18
17 4 13 -153 14
18 4 14 -217 12
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