Referendum
- Thread starter SeaEagleRock8
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God or what ever you may believe in help us all if the two ladies depicted in the YouTube video above are truly representative of the Head space of the average undecided voter in Australia. I don’t just mean this in context to the voice…..
Just on that argument that 'it's all long ago, get over it we're all together now etc etc'
Yes people get over it and feel together if if they have got over it and do feel together... but it's plain that has never happened so far here.
Continuing damaging effects from European colonisation are reflected in the fact First Nations people don't experience the same hardships at the same rate as other groups in Australia - instead, at a far higher rate. If they had attained some sort of parity statistically with everyone else there probably wouldn't be any push for self determination, or a Voice, or even for any special measures?
Haha indeed! My first thought was that it was disparaging but then I thought using young women may have been a clever attempt to soften the blow, because really young women support Yes in far greater numbers - it is actually old men probably more like that in their thinking!
Spartan Eagle
Bencher
It's a no for me on the basis that there is absolutely no information on how the body is set up, made up, powers etc... So basically vote YES and after success through consultation of various people blah blah blah the Voice body will be set up.
You would think for such a momentus occasion they would have done their homework and presented something with substance we could understand.
It's a shame because I think if this was the case it would have been a unanimous YES
You would think for such a momentus occasion they would have done their homework and presented something with substance we could understand.
It's a shame because I think if this was the case it would have been a unanimous YES
Couple of quick points Tragic
As @lsz mentioned earlier, the media coverage distorts this.
Point being, the change will be largely symbolic, but making the Voice permanent, and formally acknowledging First Peoples, is significant for that reason. The Parliament of the day can still make laws about how the Voice works, whether to fund it and how much, and can ignore any and all of its representations!
The potential benefits are better use of funds - as you point out, govt decisions so far have included some horrors. And you're right, a No vote won't mean Australians are racist. But it will mean the status quo continues, and no serious commentator has suggested there's anything good about that!
most polling I've seen shows 80% plus of First Nations support Yes.
As @lsz mentioned earlier, the media coverage distorts this.
The Constitution is an anachronism, the British monarchy via the governor general can dissolve the Houses of representatives any time they 'think fit'!!! And what do you make of s25?!!?
Point being, the change will be largely symbolic, but making the Voice permanent, and formally acknowledging First Peoples, is significant for that reason. The Parliament of the day can still make laws about how the Voice works, whether to fund it and how much, and can ignore any and all of its representations!
The potential benefits are better use of funds - as you point out, govt decisions so far have included some horrors. And you're right, a No vote won't mean Australians are racist. But it will mean the status quo continues, and no serious commentator has suggested there's anything good about that!
Brookie Bob
"I come back to you now at the turn of the tide"
Under the above parameters (considering that you are superior to others), everyone on the planet in 1788 - and now - is racist. Including you and me. And it wasn't ,and isn't now just a European thing.
Some general-isms:
- The Czechs thinks they are better than the Slovakians
- The Japanese think they are better than the Koreans - and Chinese
- The Indonesians think they are better than the Papuans
- The Argentinians think they are better than the Chileans and Peruvians
- The English think that they are better than the Irish, the Scots and Welsh
- The French think that they are better than the Spanish
- The Russians think that they are better than the Poles
- The Samoans think they are better than the Fijians.
- The South Africans (black and white) think they are better than the Zimbabweans.
And so forth and so on - and in reverse as well.
All you have to be is 'different' - and probably weaker in a military / economic / technology / science way - and your region will be a target.
All the murder, enslavement, dispossession etc that you're thinking of here in Australia - has been done everywhere the world over since the dawn of time, and in an even more targeted, brutal and systematic way, if you can imagine it. Have a chat with some Armenians or Kurds at some point.
True. True. True.
Re the brutality - my only point was - it was the way things were done then - by everyone, and many conquering nations were 'far more brutal'.
Doesn't make it right; but again - context, context, context.
Bu
But I don't think I'm more superior than another race. Am I missing something when you say "you and me?
Brookie Bob
"I come back to you now at the turn of the tide"
Any time any of us has thought that we are better than another human being we're guilty - and we all have.
Bob you’ve made a highly compelling case that throughout history humans have tended to use their power to dominate oppress and exploit others!
But do you relate this to the referendum issues somehow?
The '47ers
When Eagles are silent Parrots begin to chatter
I wonder if there was anyone here before the Aboriginals arrived. Like with the Moriori in New Zealand before the Maoris.
I agree with much of what you've written Bob but there's a huge difference, in my mind, of having a thought you might be "better" than someone morally, ethically, culturally or, you know, Parramatta supporters and that of someone's race. But maybe I'm still missing what it is you're saying in relation to this referendum and the indigenous history.
Brookie Bob
"I come back to you now at the turn of the tide"
My points were not made to specifically address the referendum per se, but the backdrop that gave birth to the referendum (and has been referenced by others on this forum):
Uluru Statement from the Heart - Wikipedia
Reconciliation in Australia - Wikipedia
Truth commission - Wikipedia
Australian Indigenous sovereignty - Wikipedia
I like to do wide-ranging research (yes, Ray Martin, I know how to Google something), and I'm also not completely convinced on the 'we've been here 60,000 years story'. I've heard of evidence to the contrary.............that never makes it to the press, strangely. My science-background spider-sense is tingling....
The first time I heard that one, it was 40,000 years, I guess in these days of increasing inflation it had to get to 60,000 years.
"I hear 60,000 years, who'll give me 70? I heard 70, who'll give me 80,000 years? Sold, to the man with the goatee in the Rising Sun Workshop cafe sipping a chai latte!!"
John Nicholson
Nicko
An interesting stat out of today's official reports;
63% of young Australians are more likely to vote Yes, and thereby for change.
Only 25% of "old farts" (like me) being 55 + will vote Yes.
It shows that old prejudices, handed down from generation to generation still stick with that group. I will vote Yes, but I remember my Grandparent's racist attitude.
Fortunately my parents were better informed and educated me accordingly.
European interracial prejudices go back centuries, exacerbated by religious beliefs; hence the never ending conflict.
We are a New lucky country, by comparison and have an ideal opportunity to get out of that perennial problem by voting for the Yes proposition.
63% of young Australians are more likely to vote Yes, and thereby for change.
Only 25% of "old farts" (like me) being 55 + will vote Yes.
It shows that old prejudices, handed down from generation to generation still stick with that group. I will vote Yes, but I remember my Grandparent's racist attitude.
Fortunately my parents were better informed and educated me accordingly.
European interracial prejudices go back centuries, exacerbated by religious beliefs; hence the never ending conflict.
We are a New lucky country, by comparison and have an ideal opportunity to get out of that perennial problem by voting for the Yes proposition.
Brookie Bob
"I come back to you now at the turn of the tide"
Depends upon the poll, I guess.
"For the first time, support among younger voters has also fallen below 50 per cent and the number of 18 to 34 year-olds saying they intended to vote no rose eight percentage points to 49 per cent.
If that result is reflected on polling day, there will not be a single demographic category in which the Yes vote outnumbers the No case.
Even university-educated voters, traditionally strongly in favour of the Voice, were now also for the first time more likely to vote No, with a nine-point decline in support to 45 per cent."
"It shows that old prejudices, handed down from generation to generation still stick with that group. I will vote Yes, but I remember my Grandparent's racist attitude." - if you want to get a group offside - tell them that they are prejudiced and racist. Tar everyone in a certain demographic with the same brush, and don't give them the benefit of having done their homework, and not agreeing 100% with you.
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MuzztheEagle
Bencher
Briggs and a few other notables had a music festival in Shepparton over the weekend to support the yes vote.....Have a listen to the following from the 27 minute mark (I'm sorry its another lefty source)...They actually managed to find the two from the video in the wild
‘We don’t want your backyard’: Briggs on why he’s campaigning for yes – podcast
Laura Murphy-Oates speaks with Yorta Yorta rapper Adam Briggs and Now & Forever concert-goers on the face-to-face conversations that are changing minds in regional Victoria.
www.theguardian.com
MuzztheEagle
Bencher
It's all here:
Referendum on an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice
On 14 October 2023, Australians voted in a referendum about whether to change the Constitution to recognise the First Peoples of Australia by establishing a body called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. It was the first referendum of the 21st century. The referendum did not pass...
There's even some fun little flow charts to lay it all out ;p
*I do think Albo is a complete knob for making such a mess of this - which is pretty much how I feel about the majority of the Labor party of the last 30 years. But that's a reason to vote the clowns out at the next election - not to vote no to this.
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I didn't take his post to be saying that, simply that as generations roll on their attitudes usually evolve with the changing times. Many of us here (including me) for example were born in a time Indigenous people weren't even counted in the census. And that was a hangover from the days of federation, and the change in beliefs and attitudes from then till now is huge.
Anyway as you say there may be no 'demographic' with majority support by polling day, although a late swing to Yes wouldn't surprise. But from the start I've personally been less interested in how many are Yes v No, and more interested in the reasons why different people are thinking of leaning one way or the other. Most reasons I've seen aren't logical at all.
Either way I appreciate you, and a couple of others, for bothering to put up some discussion points, I'm well aware it's not easy to write down clearly why one thinks a certain way, mainly because it involves having to think.
John Nicholson
Nicko
Bob, I take it on note that your polling results came from news.com.au ? Yet, that thought exposes another of my prejudices.
I don't expect that another 75% of that demographic will change their vote, no matter how much tar and feathers may be applied. I personally don't think the Yes vote will win.
I do hope, however, that after the exercise a few feathers fall off, otherwise the nation will hare to wait another 20 years for us all (including me) for the tar to dry on the perch and consequently, are not for counting.
Based on nothing but my own views I do not believe polling is representative anymore / as accurate as it used to be due to the way the data is now collected. As an example Newspoll is owned by News Limited (first danger sign!)
Their polls are run by yougov. For interest I signed up to see the process..interestingly when it came to gender there were only two options....which instantly alienates a large amount of "youth" voters.
To sign up all I had to provide was year of birth, gender, postcode and an email address. I can not participate in election polls and be rewarded with gift cards after a certain time.
zeefeed.com.au
This is not to discuss the merits of the voice (I am all yes and if you are in doubt look it up - everyone did their "research" for COVID surely you can do the same here) rather to say I would not place all my trust in polls no matter what they are saying...let alone full disclosure of all the questions asked
Their polls are run by yougov. For interest I signed up to see the process..interestingly when it came to gender there were only two options....which instantly alienates a large amount of "youth" voters.
To sign up all I had to provide was year of birth, gender, postcode and an email address. I can not participate in election polls and be rewarded with gift cards after a certain time.
Methods and Accuracy of Political Polls in Australia - Zee Feed
Are political polls in Australia worth paying attention to? We explain the basics of how they work, why they exist and if you should care.
zeefeed.com.au
This is not to discuss the merits of the voice (I am all yes and if you are in doubt look it up - everyone did their "research" for COVID surely you can do the same here) rather to say I would not place all my trust in polls no matter what they are saying...let alone full disclosure of all the questions asked
| Team | P | W | L | PD | Pts |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
7 | 6 | 1 | 99 | 14 |
|
7 | 6 | 1 | 54 | 14 |
|
7 | 5 | 2 | 36 | 12 |
|
8 | 5 | 2 | 39 | 11 |
|
8 | 5 | 3 | 64 | 10 |
|
7 | 4 | 3 | 49 | 10 |
|
8 | 4 | 4 | 73 | 8 |
|
7 | 3 | 4 | 17 | 8 |
|
8 | 4 | 4 | -14 | 8 |
|
8 | 4 | 4 | -16 | 8 |
|
8 | 4 | 4 | -60 | 8 |
|
8 | 3 | 4 | 17 | 7 |
|
8 | 3 | 5 | -25 | 6 |
|
7 | 2 | 5 | -55 | 6 |
|
8 | 3 | 5 | -55 | 6 |
|
7 | 1 | 6 | -87 | 4 |
|
7 | 1 | 6 | -136 | 4 |
