Orford to win the Clive Churchill this year

[Ryan]

Garts, I was thinking (without trying to do a YART):-

11. Anthony Watmough
12. Steve Menzies
13. Glenn Stewart

(all basically 80 minute players)

14. David Vaeliki
15. Adam Cuthbertson
16. Josh Perry
17. Glenn Hall (who basically could be a 3rd prop if all backrowers play 80 mins, OR could slot into the backrow should Beaver need a rest, or Stewart / Choc get injured.

Hall - or Afa.

 

[Garts]

Menzies will be used from the bench to get maximum impact, I am basing my opinion on this being the case.  If he was a bit younger that would be the backrow, and a much better one from last year.

Vaeliki on the bench I am not sure about, bit of a waste if you ask me as I am not sure if he could play backrow, however you never know.

 

[Jatz Crackers]

Someone mentioned balance. Good, then let there be balance to this debate. If Willow is such a balancing factor to the side, then why is there such inbalance in his performance in an overall sense but especially in relation to attack

Willow isnt a **** player but he sure is one dimensional. His workrate in defense is great and is where he provides solid dependability. His time on the field and his abilities in attack are sub standard and the stats say well below par in comparison to his backrow teammates. Willow falls down in most indicators in attack. Line breaks, metres gained, offloads and tackle breaks are all too low.  

In comparison to our last lock forward, well…....stats and otherwise, there just is no comparison really.

We have choc and stewy2 providing almost full time service in the backrow while Willow provides 50mins. What if we were to have a lock who was out there for longer saving on much needed interchanges for props and provided more spark in attack?

Where I think Ryan is coming from (and if so I agree with him) is that we know we need to improve on last year to beat the likes of Melbourne this year, then if we had the choice of Willow at lock or say Kennedy, then we would take Kennedy in a heartbeat.

But I do agree with others that to date (off season & trials form aside) we have no clear indication as yet as to if aspirants such as Wells/Afa are going to take that step up.

For mine, I think the real question is about the choice of either having Beaver in the backrow with Stewy2 moving to lock and then what format the bench forwards might look like.... and alternatively having Beaver on the bench with Glen to lock and one of Wells/Afa/Cuthbo/ to starting 2nd row.

That last sentence sounds like a sure fire invitation for a YART doesnt it ? Knock yourselves out 🙂

 

[Garts]

I think everyone agrees we need to improve, it is a no brainer.  However I am just not prepared to dump Willow to PL without having a definate replacement who is better than him.  I hope we find someone, it would be great to have somone who contributes more in attack whilst taking on the defensive workload of Willow.  For the record I think we will, someone seems to step up each year and I think this year will be no different.  I cant wait to see who it is!!!!  Not long till the first trial!!!!

 

[Jatz Crackers]

I think everyone agrees we need to improve, it is a no brainer.  However I am just not prepared to dump Willow to PL without having a definate replacement who is better than him.  I hope we find someone, it would be great to have somone who contributes more in attack whilst taking on the defensive workload of Willow.  For the record I think we will, someone seems to step up each year and I think this year will be no different.  I cant wait to see who it is!!!!  Not long till the first trial!!!!

Garts, whats wrong with Glen to lock ?

 

[Ryan]

Ok, I think this thread has been slowly building up to this, and I'm basing this without bias, and based on pure ruthlessness regardless of position, and who's been there in the past:-

01. Brett Stewart
02. Michael Bani
03. Steve Matai
04. Steven Bell
05. David Vaeliki
06. Jamie Lyon
07. Matt Orford
08. Jason King
09. Matt Ballin
10. Brent Kite
11. Anthony Watmough
12. Steve Menzies
13. Glenn Stewart

14. Heath Le'Strange
15. Adam Cuthbertson
16. Josh Perry
17. Glenn Hall / Jack Afamasaga

 

[Garts]

Nothing (assume you mean Stewart not Hall) but that does not solve the problem of who to play second row.  

Menzies will be on the bench and I am not convinced on anyone else yet.  Cuthbo had the build of a prop last year and was found out in defence, Afa looks ok in attack but slow in defence, Wells seems likely but will he be able to add to the attacking abilities of the team in 1st grade?

 

[Garts]

I would not drop Robbo for Vaeliki Ryan, he has not played NRL in a number of years, needs to earn a spot and he has had a few injuries so might have lost some sped, we dont want slow wingers.

Menzies will be on the bench, I am torn if that is the best option for him though.  If he needs to be nursed due to his age I agree but I think he would be ok to start.  He has barely had any injuries in his career and I feel they may be over reacting to his injury last year with him coming from the bench.

 

[Kiwi Eagle]

Glad someone mentioned BK, coz i was just about to bring him up.

With BK in the side, a great attacking player, he was very very good, but being that good, he diluted the games of Watmough and Menzies and they were still good with the ball in hand, but nowhere near as good as Watmough and Stewart were last season when they had their own opportunities to take some extra hitups.

For the people that want Willow gone and an extra attacking backrower in there that will chew up his 80-100m with the pill in hand, are you prepared for Watmough and Stewarts opportunites and stats to move back a level or 2 to accommodate this type of player ?

 

[Utility Player]

I think Menzies will revert to an 80 minute player (due to the 10 man interchange) He had a disrupted 2007 due to injury and was used in tandem with Willow because of this. Willow may grab a bench utility spot to cover hooker or backrow.

 

[Ryan]

I would not drop Robbo for Vaeliki Ryan, he has not played NRL in a number of years, needs to earn a spot and he has had a few injuries so might have lost some sped, we dont want slow wingers.

Menzies will be on the bench, I am torn if that is the best option for him though.  If he needs to be nursed due to his age I agree but I think he would be ok to start.  He has barely had any injuries in his career and I feel they may be over reacting to his injury last year with him coming from the bench.

I just have these visions of him in the 2001 GF for The Slime + I have thoughts about how good our medical facilities are (Look at Ben Kennedy). I reckon he'll be back there.

For the record, Robbo is a top notch winger...but I just have to play an ex international.

Like I said, ruthless.

Bani in my opinion will end up being very big in this game.

 

[Matabele]

Where I think Ryan is coming from (and if so I agree with him) is that we know we need to improve on last year to beat the likes of Melbourne this year, then if we had the choice of Willow at lock or say Kennedy, then we would take Kennedy in a heartbeat.

No!  Really?? 

 

[Jatz Crackers]

[quote author=Jatz Crackers link=topic=176824.msg177044#msg177044 date=1201148361]

Where I think Ryan is coming from (and if so I agree with him) is that we know we need to improve on last year to beat the likes of Melbourne this year, then if we had the choice of Willow at lock or say Kennedy, then we would take Kennedy in a heartbeat.

No!  Really?? 
[/quote]

Yes really.

 

[Ryan]

Well if it's that easy to comprehend Mata, WTF are you arguing?
Hehehehe..

 

[Jatz Crackers]

Nothing (assume you mean Stewart not Hall)

🙂 Yep, I dont mean Hall. He is not as bad as Mata makes out but we wont see him in the 2nd row. Stewy2 is well suited to lock.

 

[Canteen Worker]

What noone has said is that Watmough and Stewy2 are both small framed players who are nimble and quick. They have good workrate and move quickly. Neither is a power type player. That is where we miss impact and it showed in the Grand Final. We don't have a Willie Mason type player who can change the course of a game with a few hitups or a big hit or two. Pritchard, Hindmarsh etc can do these things.

Maybe Perry can do the job - bottom line is that someone has to do the work, especially in defence and Willo certainly fits that bill.

 

[clontaago]

For the record, Robbo is a top notch winger...but I just have to play an ex international.

Like I said, ruthless.

Bani in my opinion will end up being very big in this game.

Sorry Ryan but thats not ruthless, its just stupid.

You are talking about dropping one of our best and most consistent players last year, for a kiwi rep who has had serious injuries, isnt even a winger and hasnt played NRL for 2 years or so.

If Vaealiki comes back strong which i doubt he will, expect him to replace Marai or Bell.


Heres a write up on his 3 years at Wigan.

During the 2005 season David was troubled by injuries. He sustained a pectoral injury in a match against Huddersfield Giants on 20 May 2005 which was expected to keep him out of action for two months but he returned earlier than expected on the 1 July 2005 for the match against Leigh Centurions. He suffered a recurrence of the injury two weeks later and only returned on the 5 August for a match against Salford but then missed a match against Widnes Vikings the week after. He finally recovered from the injury for the match against Hull FC on 21 August 2005. David received another injury during a match against St Helens after damaging his knee cartilage. The injury was not as serious as first thought as he did not require any surgery but did miss the final match of the 2005 season against Huddersfield Giants. He made 23 appearances during 2005 scoring 6 tries.

The 2005 season was a mixed season for David with injuries preventing him from finding any decent form but much more was expected of him for the 2006 season. However the 2006 turned into a disappointment for David and the Wigan club itself. Wigan made a very poor start to the season only winning one of there first 10 super league matches leaving them bottom of the league. His first try of 2006 came on 2 April in a Challenge Cup match against Wakefield Wildcats. He suffered a medial ligament injury in the right knee in a match against St Helens on the 14 April 2007 which prevented him from playing for a month. Wigan sacked head coach Ian Millward and Brian Noble was appointed as his replacement on 20 April 2006 David was still injured when Noble took over the squad but he returned to the squad on 13 May for a match against Wakefield Wildcats which Wigan lost 10-8. Four matches after his return from injury he was dropped to the Senior Academy for 2 weeks and returned in Wigan's 40-4 win over Catalans which started an important run of wins for Wigan. He scored an important try the next week in 20-18 win over Leeds Rhinos but didn't score again during 2006. David was criticised for his poor performances during 2006 and many thought that he would be released by Wigan at the end of the season but he was kept on by Wigan for the final year of his contract.

As a result of his poor performances in 2006 he was dropped from the first team and given the squad number 14, his previous number was given to new signing Michael Withers. He played in the two pre season friendlies and was name as a substitute for the first match of the season against Warrington Wolves. He returned to the first team while Michael Withers was used as a substitute for Phil Bailey who would move from centre to second row during matches. David remained in the squad for the rest of the season partly due to the injury and eventual retirement of Michael Withers which meant Wigan had only two recognised centres in the squad Phil Bailey and David Vaealiki however academy centre Darrell Goulding was promoted to the squad to replace Michael Withers. So far in 2007 he has made 29 appearances and scored 7 tries. With Wigan signing Australian play maker Trent Barrett for the 2007 season made people believed it would bring out the best in Vaealiki and he would return to his previous form in the NRL which had made him one of the best centres in the world however his performances only improved slightly and remained a target of criticism for many Wigan fans.

 

[Ryan]

Jezuz...that's horrible dude!!
Surely he's not that bad right?
Man, I hope we didn't waste money on this bloke, or I hope he finds his feet at least !!