omnipotent beings discussion

[manlyfan76]

I believe in provisional probabilism. I know nothing for certain absolutely, only what is most probable. And tomorrow that may change.

That's fine for you, but I know that I don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Bearfax]

That's fine for you, but I know that I don't know what you are talking about.

Simple MF76. There is no absolute knowledge. Only what we can know today and that's limited to the knowledge we have. Tomorrow that knowledge could be overturned. Its happened before. And what we know is nothing more than our perception of reality. Its not reality, its merely how our minds interpret that information. That's why we all interpret information differently. Taking that a step further, a dogs primary sense is its olfactory ability. Its sense of smell is at least a hundred times as acute as ours. So acute that they probably see scent almost in hues, like we see the colours. Their perception of the world is far different from ours but real to them. Our problem is that we anthropomorphise most things and assume that the only thing that's real is how we perceive it. But even light we see is merely our minds means of interpreting a very narrow band of the EM spectrum in a manner for survival's sake that gives us a sense of vision. But the EM spectrum is nothing more than waves and photons of energy.

Confused you yet.

 

[manlyfan76]

Simple MF76. There is no absolute knowledge. Only what we can know today and that's limited to the knowledge we have. Tomorrow that knowledge could be overturned. Its happened before. And what we know is nothing more than our perception of reality. Its not reality, its merely how our minds interpret that information. That's why we all interpret information differently. Taking that a step further, a dogs primary sense is its olfactory ability. Its sense of smell is at least a hundred times as acute as ours. So acute that they probably see scent almost in hues, like we see the colours. Their perception of the world is far different from ours but real to them. Our problem is that we anthropomorphise most things and assume that the only thing that's real is how we perceive it. But even light we see is merely our minds means of interpreting a very narrow band of the EM spectrum in a manner for survival's sake that gives us a sense of vision. But the EM spectrum is nothing more than waves and photons of energy.

Confused you yet.

Was It Galileo who said that sound, smell and touch only exist inside you and not outside of your body?
Reminds me of a saying that whenever you think about a memory you are using your imagination.

 

[Bearfax]

Was It Galileo who said that sound, smell and touch only exist inside you and not outside of your body?
Reminds me of a saying that whenever you think about a memory you are using your imagination.

Now you've got it. Delusion is the natural state of all things.

 

[manlyfan76]

Now you've got it. Delusion is the natural state of all things.

Not sure if this thread has discussed solipsism before!

 

[Bearfax]

Not sure if this thread has discussed solipsism before!

I don't think that's quite what was intended in what I said. I was saying that in a little tongue in cheek. The main point I was intending to make is something like this. Imagine you are living in a room with a window view. What you see outside is your world and you interpret it based on a whole range of factors through biological predispositions, conditioning, associations and experience. Its an interpretation of what you see, but is that reality or just your individual perception of reality.

Now suppose someone is in the next room but his room is slightly askew. His window sees much of what you see but doesn't see it all and the first person doesn't see all of what the second person sees. He also has his own characteristics of interpretation but also sees the world slightly differently. Neither person is wrong in their particular interpretation from their point of view. But is what they see reality or just an interpretation of the limited perspective of what they understand as reality.

What we understand is bounded by our limitations and therefore we can never know anything absolutely. Go back in history, and I've read a lot of autobiographies recently of people living in the American west in the mid 1880s. How you think today is nothing like how they thought back then, but then their experiences and therefore attitudes were very different. They were just as intelligent as we are, maybe didn't know a lot of things we now know, but then probably knew a lot of things we don't know. Their perspective of reality was quite different. They'd be horrified by some of the ideas we have just as we would of theirs.

So yes each of us live in a state which could be construed as a degree of self delusion by the limitations of how we interpret our world and the assumption that our awareness is impartial. Its not solipsism because our interpretations are also influenced by the world we live in which includes those that we know. I would suggest its one of the reasons anti-vaxers believe what they do. Its generally because they mix with people who have similar perspectives, and we are always influenced by those who are close to us, which also influences our particular perspective on reality. But is it reality?.

 

[manlyfan76]

I don't think that's quite what was intended in what I said. I was saying that in a little tongue in cheek. The main point I was intending to make is something like this. Imagine you are living in a room with a window view. What you see outside is your world and you interpret it based on a whole range of factors through biological predispositions, conditioning, associations and experience. Its an interpretation of what you see, but is that reality or just your individual perception of reality.

Now suppose someone is in the next room but his room is slightly askew. His window sees much of what you see but doesn't see it all and the first person doesn't see all of what the second person sees. He also has his own characteristics of interpretation but also sees the world slightly differently. Neither person is wrong in their particular interpretation from their point of view. But is what they see reality or just an interpretation of the limited perspective of what they understand as reality.

What we understand is bounded by our limitations and therefore we can never know anything absolutely. Go back in history, and I've read a lot of autobiographies recently of people living in the American west in the mid 1880s. How you think today is nothing like how they thought back then, but then their experiences and therefore attitudes were very different. They were just as intelligent as we are, maybe didn't know a lot of things we now know, but then probably knew a lot of things we don't know. Their perspective of reality was quite different. They'd be horrified by some of the ideas we have just as we would of theirs.

So yes each of us live in a state which could be construed as a degree of self delusion by the limitations of how we interpret our world and the assumption that our awareness is impartial. Its not solipsism because our interpretations are also influenced by the world we live in which includes those that we know. I would suggest its one of the reasons anti-vaxers believe what they do. Its generally because they mix with people who have similar perspectives, and we are always influenced by those who are close to us, which also influences our particular perspective on reality. But is it reality?.

Solipsism basically states ( and I could be wrong) that delusion is our natural state. Only your conciseness can exist.

 

[manlyfan76]

Just on reality, say I left the room in your example and went back a year later, with a different outlook on life, has my reality changed or just my thoughts about it?

 

[Bearfax]

Solipsism basically states ( and I could be wrong) that delusion is our natural state. Only your conciseness can exist.

I think you'll find that's more to do with the individual and their self centre perspective, which is kind of similar but not quite, given in this case we're not denying existence, only that, how we interpret it is merely a perspective and we can share that with others.. Solipsism tends to be more to do with the belief that the self is all that can be known to exist or the quality of being self centred/selfish.

Its kind of like that I guess but in the issue I describing, I'm not suggesting our delusion is purely within us alone. We all self delude and we tend to associate with others who share that delusion. That becomes a faith.

Doesn't mean that what we delude about doesn't exist in some form. Its merely that we interpret what exists in our own way to fit our perspective in life. I'm a Manly supporter. I think Manly is the greatest club in the game. I share that view with others who think similarly. But a Storm supporter would see it from their perspective and be just as convinced their club is the best. Who is right? I'm a Republican in the US. I believe that Trump is our great saviour. People I mix with share my view. That is my sense of reality.

Simple examples and maybe the first we don't take so seriously but we all create our own perspective of reality and we are influenced by and tend to mix with those who share that perspective. But in the end its a delusion. That's not necessarily bad, its just how we survive, how our minds make sense of the life we live.

Mind you that's just my perspective of reality and is just as a delusional state as anyone else has

 

[manlyfan76]

I think you'll find that's more to do with the individual and their self centre perspective, which is kind of similar but not quite, given in this case we're not denying existence, only that, how we interpret it is merely a perspective and we can share that with others.. Solipsism tends to be more to do with the belief that the self is all that can be known to exist or the quality of being self centred/selfish.

Its kind of like that I guess but in the issue I describing, I'm not suggesting our delusion is purely within us alone. We all self delude and we tend to associate with others who share that delusion. That becomes a faith.

Doesn't mean that what we delude about doesn't exist in some form. Its merely that we interpret what exists in our own way to fit our perspective in life. I'm a Manly supporter. I think Manly is the greatest club in the game. I share that view with others who think similarly. But a Storm supporter would see it from their perspective and be just as convinced their club is the best. Who is right? I'm a Republican in the US. I believe that Trump is our great saviour. People I mix with share my view. That is my sense of reality.

Simple examples and maybe the first we don't take so seriously but we all create our own perspective of reality and we are influenced by and tend to mix with those who share that perspective. But in the end its a delusion. That's not necessarily bad, its just how we survive, how our minds make sense of the life we live.

I get it, you saying that your perspective may or may not be reality. But are you not assuming your consciousness exists absolutely and basing the may/ may not exist observations on the belief your mind is real in absolute terms.
It's good to think about.

 

[BOZO]

I pray that we will will all come out of these challenging times ok

 

[Bearfax]

I get it, you saying that your perspective may or may not be reality. But are you not assuming your consciousness exists absolutely and basing the may/ may not exist observations on the belief your mind is real in absolute terms.
It's good to think about.

I believe in reality. Dont know what it is but it exists. But as a living creature the fundamental purpose of my awareness is survival and procreation (and I stuffed that one up good and proper...at least I think I did).

My perspective is never able to fully understand reality. All I can do based on what I am, an individual creature, a species with preset characteristics that determine how I think and perceive, and then conditioned early within my familial and social structure to see things in a certain manner, and then influenced by my experiences and associations, is hopefully to understand those limitations. All those predispositions causes me to see and interpret the reality about me, in a very partial manner.

I've tried for years to step out of who and what I am to see thigs in a broader perspective, but in the end I'm in a fish bowl I can never escape from. Therefore I can only know what I know and use that to make sense of my existence, and that, if I keep an open mind, will develop further. But its purely partial. I use my senses to help me make sense of my world, but my senses are also evolutionary survival mechanisms, aimed at creating one way of interpreting the reality around me. But its always an individual perspective of reality, not what reality truly is. And I operate that way in creating structures and rules in how I perceive in order to make sense of it all, but that's of my own design or the design of the community and associations within which I live, isnt it.

Boy am I a deluded soul, aye.

 

[Woodsie]

I don't think that's quite what was intended in what I said. I was saying that in a little tongue in cheek. The main point I was intending to make is something like this. Imagine you are living in a room with a window view. What you see outside is your world and you interpret it based on a whole range of factors through biological predispositions, conditioning, associations and experience. Its an interpretation of what you see, but is that reality or just your individual perception of reality.

Now suppose someone is in the next room but his room is slightly askew. His window sees much of what you see but doesn't see it all and the first person doesn't see all of what the second person sees. He also has his own characteristics of interpretation but also sees the world slightly differently. Neither person is wrong in their particular interpretation from their point of view. But is what they see reality or just an interpretation of the limited perspective of what they understand as reality.

What we understand is bounded by our limitations and therefore we can never know anything absolutely. Go back in history, and I've read a lot of autobiographies recently of people living in the American west in the mid 1880s. How you think today is nothing like how they thought back then, but then their experiences and therefore attitudes were very different. They were just as intelligent as we are, maybe didn't know a lot of things we now know, but then probably knew a lot of things we don't know. Their perspective of reality was quite different. They'd be horrified by some of the ideas we have just as we would of theirs.

So yes each of us live in a state which could be construed as a degree of self delusion by the limitations of how we interpret our world and the assumption that our awareness is impartial. Its not solipsism because our interpretations are also influenced by the world we live in which includes those that we know. I would suggest its one of the reasons anti-vaxers believe what they do. Its generally because they mix with people who have similar perspectives, and we are always influenced by those who are close to us, which also influences our particular perspective on reality. But is it reality?.

The physical world does not depend on our interpretation of it, nor is it bounded by our limitations, for it to exist and be real ... the apple will fall, regardless of our biased perception of it ... the only place that confusion exists is in our own heads ...

What is a physical and elemental fact remains, regardless of which room you are in .. they don't care. There are no alternate facts.

 

[Bearfax]

The physical world does not depend on our interpretation of it, nor is it bounded by our limitations, for it to exist and be real ... the apple will fall, regardless of our biased perception of it ... the only place that confusion exists is in our own heads ...

What is a physical and elemental fact remains, regardless of which room you are in .. they don't care. There are no alternate facts.

Woodsie I didn't at any stage say the physical world and things dont exist. I said how we interpret things about us is our personal interpretation of what is happening. Things happen and we observe them happening, but its our personal interpretation.

Take an example of colour. Colour doesn't really exist as it appears to us. It is our evolutionary development of three nodes behind our eyes that interpret specific wavelengths of photonic energy as red, green and blue. But they are just wave lengths of photonic energy interpreted in a certain way so that for survival we can observe and make sense of what's around us. It exists primarily for survival reasons as does sound, taste, smell, etc all evolutionary developments to use certain natural characteristics for survival. But they aren't what we see, smell, taste, feel. That is the bodies mechanisms that interpret those signals in a specific way.

That's a simple issue but the question of interpretation follows across the board. I'm not saying reality doesn't exist, I'm saying how we interpret it, is in a very partial manner in understanding interpreting what exists. A dog, as I mentioned would have a quite different interpretation because its olfactory sense is more dominant than its sight, and it does not see quite the same way we do. Its interpretation of reality would be quite different. Neither are wrong, but its not about reality, its about how we interpret it and that's different

 

[Woodsie]

Woodsie I didn't at any stage say the physical world and things dont exist. I said how we interpret things about us is our personal interpretation of what is happening. Things happen and we observe them happening, but its our personal interpretation.

Take an example of colour. Colour doesn't really exist as it appears to us. It is our evolutionary development of three nodes behind our eyes that interpret specific wavelengths of photonic energy as red, green and blue. But they are just wave lengths of photonic energy interpreted in a certain way so that for survival we can observe and make sense of what's around us. It exists primarily for survival reasons as does sound, taste, smell, etc all evolutionary developments to use certain natural characteristics for survival. But they aren't what we see, smell, taste, feel. That is the bodies mechanisms that interpret those signals in a specific way.

That's a simple issue but the question of interpretation follows across the board. I'm not saying reality doesn't exist, I'm saying how we interpret it, is in a very partial manner in understanding interpreting what exists. A dog, as I mentioned would have a quite different interpretation because its olfactory sense is more dominant than its sight, and it does not see quite the same way we do. Its interpretation of reality would be quite different. Neither are wrong, but its not about reality, its about how we interpret it and that's different

I understand that Bear, sorry, probably jumped the gun a bit, ... philosophical debate is an important part of human development, but I get frustrated when it enters the world of physical reality ..

Two people with different views and neither having all the facts is fine when they are deciding which shoes to buy ... but when it is a matter of disputing medical fact and influencing others they become a danger ... and society is poorer and dumber for it.

 

[Kevinward777]

Romans 1 v 19-20

19 since what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

2 Peter 2 v12

12 But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

John 3 v 16

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Don't delay - accept Jesus today.

 

[Bearfax]

I understand that Bear, sorry, probably jumped the gun a bit, ... philosophical debate is an important part of human development, but I get frustrated when it enters the world of physical reality ..

Two people with different views and neither having all the facts is fine when they are deciding which shoes to buy ... but when it is a matter of disputing medical fact and influencing others they become a danger ... and society is poorer and dumber for it.

Same issue as when I was a witness to a car accident, which I mentioned before. I saw the accident clearly but it was from my perspective. Another two saw the accident and saw it from different perspectives, so though we agreed as to who was at fault, how they saw it was different from how I saw it because I saw it from a different perspective. As an observer in all things, I can only interpret something from my observations and perspective, but that's not fully what happened.

 

[Woodsie]

Same issue as when I was a witness to a car accident, which I mentioned before. I saw the accident clearly but it was from my perspective. Another two saw the accident and saw it from different perspectives, so though we agreed as to who was at fault, how they saw it was different from how I saw it because I saw it from a different perspective. As an observer in all things, I can only interpret something from my observations and perspective, but that's not fully what happened.

And yet ... the circumstances and physics that caused the accident remain absolute and unchanged despite either perspective being correct or not ...

 

[Bearfax]

And yet ... the circumstances and physics that caused the accident remain absolute and unchanged despite either perspective being correct or not ...

Absolutely. Reality isn't changed by observation, though there's uncertainty about that at the Quantum level, though even that maybe because of our interpretation at this stage. This is all about how we perceive things and come to conclusions that relate to what we are and how we interpret. The delusion is personal or even social, separate from the actual facts.

 

[Kevinward777]

We live in a hologram according to the greatest minds of science. You know - those guys who don't even try to sound clever.