omnipotent beings discussion

[eaglebuzz]

To @Kevinward777 , @eaglebuzz and any other religious person wanting to push the validity of their belief:
The argument appears to go like this:
I ask a difficult question around religion which is answered with: Well that's because you don't know/understand God?
I ask how that can happen I get: You need to embrace god. It's a personal journey.
I then say that that doesn't really mean anything to me so ask for some personal experiences and I get: Well it's a long story over many years and I don't really think I could put it on paper etc etc. or worse, you just need to trust in God.
The thing is; that conversation happens all the time...with con men. Just trust me, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity, just commit and you will believe to.

If it WAS there I would be happy to believe, but I'm yet to find anything of any substance. And I have looked - I had somewhat of a religious upbringing, my partner works for a religious organisation, I have religious friends and I have spent enough time in churches and discussing with ministers and the like. Am I broken? Unworthy of God's love? Or have I just missed something obvious? Please enlighten me. How did you get to really know God?
And if God's love is so universal why is it so hard for any of you to explain?

It's a bit like trying to discuss quantum mechanics with someone who doesn't have any respect for science. You can do it, but at the outset you know how much time and effort it will take to slowly pick at the seams of an entire worldview just so you can get to the point of establishing some fundamentals that will eventually after many many sessions finally lead to a good understanding.

It's not TOO hard, but it it is hard. I pipe up from time to time because the casual dismissal of religion I encounter frequently on here is so clearly ignorant that I can't not say something. But this forum post format is not a good one for the kinds of discussions you seem to be wanting to have.

 

[Woodsie]

I'm pretty sure this will explain everything...Roky's gone but he'll be back

Bedoin in tribes ascending
From the egg into the flower
Alpha information sending
States within the heaven shower
From disciples the unending
Subtleties of river power
They slip inside this house as they pass by
If your limbs begin dissolving
In the water that you tread
All surroundings are evolving
In the stream that clears your head
Find yourself a caravan
Like Noah must have led
And slip inside this house as you pass by
Slip inside this house as you pass by
True conception, knowing why
Brings even more than meets the eye
Slip inside this house as you pass by
In this dark we call creation
We can be and feel and know
From an effort, comfort station
That's surviving on the go
There's infinite survival in
The high baptismal glow
Just slip inside this house as you pass by
There is no season when you are grown
You are always risen from the seeds you've sown
There is no reason to rise alone
Other stories given have sages of their own
Live where your heart can be given
And your life starts to unfold
In the forms you envision
In this dream that's ages old
On the river layer is the only sayer
You receive all you can hold
Like you've been told
Every day's another dawning
Give the morning winds a chance
Always catch your thunder yawning
Lift your mind into the dance
Sweep the shadows from your awning
Shrink the fourfold circumstance
That lies outside this house don't pass it by.
Higher worlds that you uncover
Light the path you want to roam
You compare there and discover
You won't need a shell of foam
Twice born gypsies care and keep
The nowhere of their former home
They slip inside this house as they pass by.
Slip inside this house as you pass by.
You think you can't, you wish you could
I know you can, I wish you would
Slip inside this house as you pass by.
Four and twenty birds of Maya
Baked into an atom you
Polarized into existence
Magnet heart from red to blue
To such extent the realm of dark
Within the picture it seems true
But slip inside this house and then decide
All your lightning waits inside you
Travel it along your spine
Seven stars receive your visit
Seven seals remain divine
Seven churches filled with spirit
Treasure from the angel mine
To slip inside this house as you pass by
Slip inside this house as you pass by
The space you make has your own laws
No longer human gods are cause
The center of this house will never die
There is no season when you are grown
You are always risen from the seeds you've sown
There is no reason to rise alone
Other stories given have sages of their own
Draw from the well of unchanging
And its union nourishes on
In the right re-arranging
Till the last confusion is gone
Water-brothers trust in the ultimust
Of the always singing song they pass along
One-eyed men aren't really reigning
They just march in place until
Two-eyed men with mystery training
Finally feel the power fill
Three-eyed men are not complaining
They can yo-yo where they will
They slip inside this house as they pass by
Don't pass it by

Clarity at last ....

 

[MuzztheEagle]

It's a bit like trying to discuss quantum mechanics with someone who doesn't have any respect for science. You can do it, but at the outset you know how much time and effort it will take to slowly pick at the seams of an entire worldview just so you can get to the point of establishing some fundamentals that will eventually after many many sessions finally lead to a good understanding.

It's not TOO hard, but it it is hard. I pipe up from time to time because the casual dismissal of religion I encounter frequently on here is so clearly ignorant that I can't not say something. But this forum post format is not a good one for the kinds of discussions you seem to be wanting to have.

Sorry, but no. There is plenty I can do to show how physics and even quantum mechanics can be observed. It may take some time but I would be very confident to take on such a task and I could tell you exactly where to begin after speaking with the person.
The only problem would be with someone so religious that they saw everything as the work of God or even magic and saw science as the work of the devil.
And this is where you will say the problem exists...but the thing is; science isn't trying to disprove or work against God. Science attempts to explain the world as we experience it. That's all.
Refusing to listen to scientific concepts because people believe it to be evil is a real problem. But this is different to scepticism and as I have already said when it comes to religion I am listening and willing to accept sound ideas.
The other problem is that science and Quantum mechanics do nothing to tell people how to live their lives or judge others.
There are also numerous posters on here claiming that some of the best scientists have been religious. So the two ideas cannot be mutually exclusive.
If you want to give me your personal view of science and your current knowledge of physics I will take a crack at explaining some quantum mechanics.
Another thing though, I'm not asking for the quantum mechanics of religion. I'm asking for a start. I wouldn't start with QM if I was explaining physics. I would start with something that can be easily understood without additional knowledge.
If god requires people to grasp something as complex as QM in order to obtain eternal bliss (as opposed to the eternal damnation he threatens) then f***K him. He's a dick!

 

[Kevinward777]

Sorry, but no. There is plenty I can do to show how physics and even quantum mechanics can be observed. It may take some time but I would be very confident to take on such a task and I could tell you exactly where to begin after speaking with the person.
The only problem would be with someone so religious that they saw everything as the work of God or even magic and saw science as the work of the devil.
And this is where you will say the problem exists...but the thing is; science isn't trying to disprove or work against God. Science attempts to explain the world as we experience it. That's all.
Refusing to listen to scientific concepts because people believe it to be evil is a real problem. But this is different to scepticism and as I have already said when it comes to religion I am listening and willing to accept sound ideas.
The other problem is that science and Quantum mechanics do nothing to tell people how to live their lives or judge others.
There are also numerous posters on here claiming that some of the best scientists have been religious. So the two ideas cannot be mutually exclusive.
If you want to give me your personal view of science and your current knowledge of physics I will take a crack at explaining some quantum mechanics.
Another thing though, I'm not asking for the quantum mechanics of religion. I'm asking for a start. I wouldn't start with QM if I was explaining physics. I would start with something that can be easily understood without additional knowledge.
If god requires people to grasp something as complex as QM in order to obtain eternal bliss (as opposed to the eternal damnation he threatens) then f***K him. He's a dick!

I’ll put forward something which can be easily understood then.
1-Do you believe in the Ten Commandments?
2-Do you consider yourself to be a person who requires a saviour due to your inability to keep those same commandments?

 

[MuzztheEagle]

I’ll put forward something which can be easily understood then.
1-Do you believe in the Ten Commandments?
2-Do you consider yourself to be a person who requires a saviour due to your inability to keep those same commandments?

Please give me your interpretation of the 10 commandments. I feel there are too many possibilities to give you a simple yes/no answer. So ask me ten questions about what I believe and I will give you my best answers.

 

[Kevinward777]

Please give me your interpretation of the 10 commandments. I feel there are too many possibilities to give you a simple yes/no answer. So ask me ten questions about what I believe and I will give you my best answers.

The Ten Commandments are written in a clear language... either you believe in them or you don’t.

 

[Kevinward777]

How about this then... Do you believe yourself to be a person who has lived a good life worthy of receiving a place in heaven if such a place were to exist? Very simple question.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

The Ten Commandments are written in a clear language... either you believe in them or you don’t.

Lol. Not long ago you were commending someone for telling me to seek out a "proper" interpretation. But now I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself!!! I would suggest you spend some time looking into the different interpretations as there is plenty to dissect.
Let's go with KJV - unless you have any objections:
Exodus 20 King James Version (KJV)

20 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Um, sure if your the only god then it seems ok. But aren't you all powerful and all that? Why so insecure? Also shouldn't you let everyone else on the planet that your the real god? You know - most of Asia, Australia, Africa and the Americas? Doesn't really seem fair to judge them on a rule that they aren't aware of.
It's a no on this one. Also, this is what you lead with? God is really insecure.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Similar to the last one. Except that I don't know what is in "heaven above". Is this space? So no model solar systems? Also no pictures of dolphins, fish etc...That's a bit odd. Don't speculate about heaven and create statues to worship. Well that pretty much puts a line through most christian churches. Which I sort of agree with - don't make up an idea of what heaven is and then worship it. All those pictures by the great renaissance artists were pulled out of their arse and then help up as fact. Probably a bad idea and allows people to sell an idea that they have no idea about.
But overall it's a No...just too weird and insecure from the big man.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Wow. Do what my insecurity says or your children's children will also suffer. F**k you God!

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Still going with the insecurity thing God? Have you tried counseling? F**k you God!

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Now if this implies to take a day off at least once a 7 day week then sure. That sounds like a good idea. All work and no play etc. Also, its always good to set aside some time for mindfulness.
But if this means the only thing you can do on a Monday/Saturday/Sunday is sit and study the bible then God's just being insecure again.

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Sure give everyone a day off (doesn't mention slaves though). Fine unless your enforcing the bible study (and I have visited many communities hat do).

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
Sure, look after those who brought you into the world. Unless maybe they were abusive parents. Honour might be to strong a word here without proper explanation. It's a probably for this one.

13 Thou shalt not kill.
Seriously, now after all that stuff fixated on you we finally get here. I guess we are not listing things in any sort of importance. Might be a few philosophical examples where you could argue for killing. Plenty would argue the necessity of war but I'm against it personally.
Yes, agree

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Hmmm, what does adultery mean? Don't cheat or deceive a partner? Sound good. But I'm pretty sure Sunday school taught me that this means no sex outside of marriage. So it's a hard no.
Historically speaking marriage was a way of treating and controlling women as property. My partner (of over 10 years) and I are not married (partly because of this) and my sons are bastards in the churches eyes. I don't need anyone to sanctify or legitimize my relationships.

15 Thou shalt not steal.
Sure. Again some grey area here when you play the necessity card but overall it's fine.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Why thy neighbor? does this mea you can against strangers and foreigners. If this means everyone then sure....but if it's selective then it's a hard no.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Sure. Jealousy can be a pretty bad thing. Oh wait aren't you jealous God? So it's fine for you but not us. That's a pretty big double standard. Also this is pretty much at odds with the American/Australian dream - that's how advertising works best today. Why isn't Izzy out campaigning for this? Homosexuality isn't on this list....oh wait adultery right!


I think that's it. Did I miss any? It gets a bit weird from here.
Now I'm guessing you will now eliminate a few of these by listing some things from Mathew and Romans.......

 

[eaglebuzz]

Sorry, but no. There is plenty I can do to show how physics and even quantum mechanics can be observed. It may take some time but I would be very confident to take on such a task and I could tell you exactly where to begin after speaking with the person.
The only problem would be with someone so religious that they saw everything as the work of God or even magic and saw science as the work of the devil.
And this is where you will say the problem exists...but the thing is; science isn't trying to disprove or work against God. Science attempts to explain the world as we experience it. That's all.
Refusing to listen to scientific concepts because people believe it to be evil is a real problem. But this is different to scepticism and as I have already said when it comes to religion I am listening and willing to accept sound ideas.
The other problem is that science and Quantum mechanics do nothing to tell people how to live their lives or judge others.
There are also numerous posters on here claiming that some of the best scientists have been religious. So the two ideas cannot be mutually exclusive.
If you want to give me your personal view of science and your current knowledge of physics I will take a crack at explaining some quantum mechanics.
Another thing though, I'm not asking for the quantum mechanics of religion. I'm asking for a start. I wouldn't start with QM if I was explaining physics. I would start with something that can be easily understood without additional knowledge.
If god requires people to grasp something as complex as QM in order to obtain eternal bliss (as opposed to the eternal damnation he threatens) then f***K him. He's a dick!

You seem to have overinterpreted my analogy. I am not going to repeat it. Have a good one, I'm going to stick to discussing the Sea Eagles on here. My advice if you have an open mind is find people you can have these discussions with in real life. It's a much more helpful way to have these discussions.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

You seem to have overinterpreted my analogy. I am not going to repeat it. Have a good one, I'm going to stick to discussing the Sea Eagles on here. My advice if you have an open mind is find people you can have these discussions with in real life. It's a much more helpful way to have these discussions.

That's fine. But maybe stop using religion to justify bigoted, hateful and outdated views when religion itself cannot be justified! Then people will probably stop trashing your beliefs.

 

[Kevinward777]

Lol. Not long ago you were commending someone for telling me to seek out a "proper" interpretation. But now I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself!!! I would suggest you spend some time looking into the different interpretations as there is plenty to dissect.
Let's go with KJV - unless you have any objections:
Exodus 20 King James Version (KJV)

20 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Um, sure if your the only god then it seems ok. But aren't you all powerful and all that? Why so insecure? Also shouldn't you let everyone else on the planet that your the real god? You know - most of Asia, Australia, Africa and the Americas? Doesn't really seem fair to judge them on a rule that they aren't aware of.
It's a no on this one. Also, this is what you lead with? God is really insecure.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Similar to the last one. Except that I don't know what is in "heaven above". Is this space? So no model solar systems? Also no pictures of dolphins, fish etc...That's a bit odd. Don't speculate about heaven and create statues to worship. Well that pretty much puts a line through most christian churches. Which I sort of agree with - don't make up an idea of what heaven is and then worship it. All those pictures by the great renaissance artists were pulled out of their arse and then help up as fact. Probably a bad idea and allows people to sell an idea that they have no idea about.
But overall it's a No...just too weird and insecure from the big man.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Wow. Do what my insecurity says or your children's children will also suffer. F**k you God!

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Still going with the insecurity thing God? Have you tried counseling? F**k you God!

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Now if this implies to take a day off at least once a 7 day week then sure. That sounds like a good idea. All work and no play etc. Also, its always good to set aside some time for mindfulness.
But if this means the only thing you can do on a Monday/Saturday/Sunday is sit and study the bible then God's just being insecure again.

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Sure give everyone a day off (doesn't mention slaves though). Fine unless your enforcing the bible study (and I have visited many communities hat do).

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
Sure, look after those who brought you into the world. Unless maybe they were abusive parents. Honour might be to strong a word here without proper explanation. It's a probably for this one.

13 Thou shalt not kill.
Seriously, now after all that stuff fixated on you we finally get here. I guess we are not listing things in any sort of importance. Might be a few philosophical examples where you could argue for killing. Plenty would argue the necessity of war but I'm against it personally.
Yes, agree

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Hmmm, what does adultery mean? Don't cheat or deceive a partner? Sound good. But I'm pretty sure Sunday school taught me that this means no sex outside of marriage. So it's a hard no.
Historically speaking marriage was a way of treating and controlling women as property. My partner (of over 10 years) and I are not married (partly because of this) and my sons are bastards in the churches eyes. I don't need anyone to sanctify or legitimize my relationships.

15 Thou shalt not steal.
Sure. Again some grey area here when you play the necessity card but overall it's fine.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Why thy neighbor? does this mea you can against strangers and foreigners. If this means everyone then sure....but if it's selective then it's a hard no.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Sure. Jealousy can be a pretty bad thing. Oh wait aren't you jealous God? So it's fine for you but not us. That's a pretty big double standard. Also this is pretty much at odds with the American/Australian dream - that's how advertising works best today. Why isn't Izzy out campaigning for this? Homosexuality isn't on this list....oh wait adultery right!


I think that's it. Did I miss any? It gets a bit weird from here.
Now I'm guessing you will now eliminate a few of these by listing some things from Mathew and Romans.......

So, that would be a very big no then... sweet.

 

[Kevinward777]

That's fine. But maybe stop using religion to justify bigoted, hateful and outdated views when religion itself cannot be justified! Then people will probably stop trashing your beliefs.

So it’s okay to have faith... as long as it fits within the parameters of your self proclaimed guidelines? @eaglebuzz has been respectful and courteous has he not? You on the other hand not so much. It’s the very reason why I decided not to go any deeper with you about my own life and the circumstances which brought me to the faith in Christ that I have today.

 

[eaglebuzz]

That's fine. But maybe stop using religion to justify bigoted, hateful and outdated views when religion itself cannot be justified! Then people will probably stop trashing your beliefs.

The very fact that you would end with that leaves me feeling very good about not discussing these matters at any length with you

 

[Kevinward777]

That's fine. But maybe stop using religion to justify bigoted, hateful and outdated views when religion itself cannot be justified! Then people will probably stop trashing your beliefs.

And for the record... you have never trashed my beliefs mate. What you have ridiculed is some psuedo version of what you presume are my are my beliefs with intellectualism.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

The very fact that you would end with that leaves me feeling very good about not discussing these matters at any length with you

No, that's the very crux of the matter. You want to claim that religion can be used to justify a belief or stance on issues. Yet when I ask for the justification and reasoning behind it I get a bunch of nothing which essentially boils down to either: It's complicated or it would take to long to explain. You aren't willing to discuss these matters, you never have. Everyone who claims they want to discuss this ends up doing exactly the same and when I get frustrated and ask for actual answers you take this as offense and run off. Fine, I don't care, it shows me what is pretty clear about your religion: it is built on insecurity and lies. And when the security of your belief system is threatened you run. So run, but like I said, stop using religion to justify a stance on something. Especially when you will not even attempt to justify it.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

So, that would be a very big no then... sweet.

So what was the purpose of this? Also, I didn't answer 2: No (for the ones I answered yes to). I am confident and secure in myself and fellow humans.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

So it’s okay to have faith... as long as it fits within the parameters of your self proclaimed guidelines? @eaglebuzz has been respectful and courteous has he not? You on the other hand not so much. It’s the very reason why I decided not to go any deeper with you about my own life and the circumstances which brought me to the faith in Christ that I have today.

No, not what I said at all. I said it's OK to have a stance as long as you can provide a justification on said stance. No one is willing to give me a justifiable stance as to why religion provides a someone the right to bigoted, hateful and outdated views on homosexuality.
I am being respectful, just not to the concept of religion. But that's an idea not a person - ideas are not worthy of the respect I would give to people.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

And for the record... you have never trashed my beliefs mate. What you have ridiculed is some psuedo version of what you presume are my are my beliefs with intellectualism.

Exactly, you aren't even willing to give me your stance. Not since the beginning. All you want to do is through a big blanket over the concept of religion and call it sacred. Well (once more) that brings us to: which religious belief and beliefs from the bible are worth defending? Should we enforce women to wear body coverings and treat them as property? Embrace slavery, execution and torture? These can all be "justified" by your religion is sacred and individual argument.
You won't give me your particular beliefs because you know, that as soon as things get specific, they are easier to break down and you know that I can provide plenty of reasoning to suggest why your particular belief is flawed.
I've asked many times for you to share you beliefs and I have attempted to avoid generalisations where possible. But what can I do, you won't give me an honest answer about your beliefs. All you offer is the view that religion is sacred and must be defended. Well what I discuss here is religion, it's at least one take on it and that's all I can do - unless you actually want to offer up your own views for discussion.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

So it’s okay to have faith... as long as it fits within the parameters of your self proclaimed guidelines? @eaglebuzz has been respectful and courteous has he not? You on the other hand not so much. It’s the very reason why I decided not to go any deeper with you about my own life and the circumstances which brought me to the faith in Christ that I have today.

And please, tell me where i have been disrespectful. I offer no respect for ideas, but if I have actually insulted anyone then I will be happy to apologise and will attempt to modify my behaviour in the future. What's more, if you want to discuss some of my specific beliefs and stances on issues then please go ahead. I'm an open book and will answer any questions asked. Should we revisit the charity conversation we previously had or did you want to continue with the 10 commandments line. Or will you just use the high ground argument like @eaglebuzz 🙂

 

[Woodsie]

Please give me your interpretation of the 10 commandments. I feel there are too many possibilities to give you a simple yes/no answer. So ask me ten questions about what I believe and I will give you my best answers.

From my position in the grandstand ..... I feel the very title and nature of the term "Commandments" to be presumptive and misleading ....

Commanded by whom ?? ... as the existence of a God has not yet been establisheed to the satisfaction of all contestants .... I propose the term commandments be expunged from the records and replaced with ... 10 good ideas to live in harmony ....