omnipotent beings discussion

[SeaEagleRock8]

I probably couldn't understand it anyway!
From memory, you advocate a religious outlook based on teachings of Jesus, but not of any particular church - is that roughly so?

 

[mozgrame]

How about I cut to the chase...since probably no one is going to do any research. I'll even throw in a couple of other inquisitions and we'll look at the numbers to see if religion causes more deaths than rejection of religion. Please note...I use the word religion in its purest form. Extremists do not truly represent their religion.

Lets start with the historical event, then the dates of the event, then who was responsible for the event, the total deaths per year...and then the total deaths all up.

The Spanish inquisition. 1481 to 1834. Responsible - Christian theists. Deaths per years - 9. Deaths in total - 3230.

The medieval inquisitions. 1184 - 1500. Responsible - Christian theists. Deaths per year - 6. Deaths in total - 2000.

The Portuguese inquisition. 1540 - 1794. Responsible - Christian theists. Deaths per year - 5. Deaths in total - 1175.

Compare those totals (the years they ran, the total deaths) to historical events that were not religiously run...

The Spanish red terror - 1936 - 1939. Responsible - Atheists. Deaths per year 24 114. Deaths in total - 72 344.

Holodomor. 1932 - 1933. Responsible - Atheists. Deaths per year - 1 750 000. Total deaths - 3 500 000.

The holocaust. 1932 - 1933. Responsible - Pagan theists. Deaths per year - 1 500 000. Total deaths - 6 000 000.

The great leap forward. Responsible - Atheists. Deaths per year - 8 600 000. Total deaths - 43 000 000.

The historian Henry Charles Lea once described the Spanish inquisition as theocratic absolutism at its worst. You'd have to think that would be a remarkably positive testimony about theocratic absolutism...taking the above into account. LOL!

 

[mozgrame]

I probably couldn't understand it anyway!
From memory, you advocate a religious outlook based on teachings of Jesus, but not of any particular church - is that roughly so?

Well old mate...after applying my own litmus test on the subject...I fear I'm worse off than your good self The facts speak for themselves if you investigate and study the issue using methods such as archaeology, historical evidence, psychology... (for instance...why did the disciples choose violent deaths if they knew it was all a lie? I could go on and on...)

Science is discovering more and more evidence that points towards a creator.

If it's alright with you blokes...I'd like to continue providing evidence of theses things...even though I can't say I'm "in the flock". In fact...I'd say I'm in the "gnashing of teeth" crew. Hahaha!

My litmus test? For me, personally...to be a follower of Jesus, you must live like Jesus...everyday. Could I give up all my materialistic gains and truly give hands on help to the poor, sick, outcast and needy? Yes...but will I? Aahhhh...therein lies the dilemma.

But that's my dilemma, and I refuse to offer it up as any sort of proof that religion is wrong to anyone else.

I hope that makes sense. I'm pretty hungover...lol.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

he holocaust. 1932 - 1933. Responsible - Pagan theists. Deaths per year - 1 500 000. Total deaths - 6 000 000.

Interesting.
Although you claim 'pagan theists' responsible for the holocaust - a theist is by definition one who believes in a god, hence shouldn't this be on the other side of your ledger? Especially when the population of Germany at the time was almost 100% Christian (1% Jewish) - The German Churches and the Nazi State

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I'm pretty hungover...lol.

Perfect this could be my one chance to bamboozle you!
Say, I have no problem with you believing in a creator, even though I know there is no such thing.
On the other hand, certain actions of those who claim to believe in a creator i do at times take issue with, which is more the crux of the issue, for practical purposes.
Eg anti-abortion, men in charge, those kind of things

 

[Woodsie]

That's probably why there are so many untruths trotted out...and believed as undeniable facts. Things written by blokes like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are taken as well researched and thoroughly correct. Sprinkle in some memes from Ricky Gervais (Interesting side note...I read in Psychology Today a while back that there seems to be a flaw in peoples thinking...or ability to think for themselves when it comes to celebrities. It's almost to the stage of a cumulative mental disorder. Most people will follow the thoughts or musings of a celebrity rather than investigate the findings of researchers on pretty much any given subject.

As in all rules .. there exists a contrary example that proves the rule .... Robert De Nero ..... a celebrity that simply speaks to demonstrate that he took far too many punches to the head while training for the movie Raging Bull ...

His latest escapade from his anti-vaxx looney bin has him offering $100,000 dollars to anybody that can prove vaccines work ..

Trump's Presidency will be defined and remembered for calling this bloke a punchie ......

 

[Woodsie]

... and PSSS @mozgrame ..... Man's inherent nature of greed and power ... Us V them ..... has always been the root cause of the events you mention .... religion is just another hook to hang your worldly desires on ......

However, I will ask you a question .... what wars or holocausts have been stopped or prevented because of religion ..... ???

 

[mozgrame]

Interesting.
Although you claim 'pagan theists' responsible for the holocaust - a theist is by definition one who believes in a god, hence shouldn't this be on the other side of your ledger? Especially when the population of Germany at the time was almost 100% Christian (1% Jewish) - The German Churches and the Nazi State

How many pagan gods are there?? Would you charge the whole of the German nation with the holocaust...or just those in charge at the time?

Hitler himself was said to be a Christian, and many atheists will tell you he was. But history says differently. Most of the statements made by Hitler indicating his Christian faith were made before 1934 when he was still a politician running for elected office. Looking at how he acted once gaining power...it's difficult to believe he was sincere in his political based speak.

Richard Dawkins asked in his book, The God Delusion..."It is possible that Hitler had by 1941 experienced some kind of deconversion or disillusionment with Christianity. Or is the resolution of the contradictions simply that he was an opportunistic liar whose words cannot be trusted, in either direction?"

Given Hitler's overwhelmingly effectiveness as a politician...the answer would have to be yes!

 

[mozgrame]

Perfect this could be my one chance to bamboozle you!
Say, I have no problem with you believing in a creator, even though I know there is no such thing.
On the other hand, certain actions of those who claim to believe in a creator i do at times take issue with, which is more the crux of the issue, for practical purposes.
Eg anti-abortion, men in charge, those kind of things

How do you know there was/is no creator?

Anti abortion, men in charge...why do you concern yourself with these issues, and what do you do to help bring change to these issues?

 

[mozgrame]

... and PSSS @mozgrame ..... Man's inherent nature of greed and power ... Us V them ..... has always been the root cause of the events you mention .... religion is just another hook to hang your worldly desires on ......

However, I will ask you a question .... what wars or holocausts have been stopped or prevented because of religion ..... ???

Agreed. But why don't more people see this when the topic "religion causes more deaths" crops up??

The question about religion preventing wars is not very relevant. Likewise, how many wars or holocausts have been prevented by a belief in atheism?

 

[Woodsie]

The question about religion preventing wars is not very relevant. Likewise, how many wars or holocausts have been prevented by a belief in atheism?

Relevant to the extent, that if a God given religion is held up as a force of change .... then what has it changed ... and for what good ? ... If it is not preventing or stopping man's must destructive of activities .. war ... then what real value has it been ... what has it achieved ?

 

[mozgrame]

Relevant to the extent, that if a God given religion is held up as a force of change .... then what has it changed ... and for what good ? ... If it is not preventing or stopping man's must destructive of activities .. war ... then what real value has it been ... what has it achieved ?

Man hasn't adhered to the plan though. That's the problem. In the old testament, God gave everything over to Adam and Eve. They in turn handed everything over to evil.

Then Jesus turned up. Through humility, love and compassion (sprinkled with bursts of frustration) he paid the penalty for sin for everyone, offering the garden all over again. He had the biggest impact on the world in history...and didn't fire a shot...or encourage others to do so...and his impact still reverberates around the world today. Man however...due to his sin nature slapped the olive branch from his hand and nailed him up...evil is still in control. Some people don't get that. Jesus/God doesn't rule the world...yet. Evil does.

Christians are in a holding pattern...waiting for the return. Religion does its best to help those effected by turmoil caused by man and his "I know what's good for everyone" actions through charities and medical aid, drug abuse programs, homelessness, helping the disadvantaged gain employment etc...but a church will never stop one country invading another.

To blame mans problems on God (to Christians) is a cop out. It's a people problem.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Science is discovering more and more evidence that points towards a creator.

So ... for you it is evidence based? If your belief is based on the currently available evidence it sounds somewhat conditional, bit like those agnostics you deride for not making up their mind!

How do you know there was/is no creator?

Simple, the laws of physics do not allow for exceptions, and any purported interaction of pure spirit (not the kind that gave you the hangover, the other kind) with the physical world must involve an exception to those laws.

hat's the problem. In the old testament, God gave everything over to Adam and Eve. They in turn handed everything over to evil.

Come on, the Old Testament? With so many contradictions with the New testament - eye for an eye vs turn the other cheek, etc - to just pick and choose as it suits your argument is not very persuasive!

And neither is posing a loaded question about whether religion causes more deaths than rejection of religion... but extremists do not truly represent religion, and nor did Hitler, and German Christians can't be blamed...altogether too many qualifications there, so the whole argument threatens to turn to dust!

As to social justice issues, well obviously we live in this society and I'm sure we all have near and dear who are adversely affected in one way or another, in fact you'd have to be blind not to notice, lol

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Oh and if you actually (like really) believe in Adam and Eve and the snake and the apple then I'm afraid I'm stumped and have no choice but to concede defeat.
Oh, just had one funny thought. Has anyone ever heard of Eve and Adam? I haven't. Adam always comes first. I guess that's because men are the original and best and woman just made from one bit of a man. And woman was the weak one who sinned, typical. Goddammit, it kind of explains a lot, now I think of it!

 

[Eagle thru 'n' thru]

Oh and if you actually (like really) believe in Adam and Eve and the snake and the apple then I'm afraid I'm stumped and have no choice but to concede defeat.
Oh, just had one funny thought. Has anyone ever heard of Eve and Adam? I haven't. Adam always comes first. I guess that's because men are the original and best and woman just made from one bit of a man. And woman was the weak one who sinned, typical. Goddammit, it kind of explains a lot, now I think of it!

Who said that Adam amd Eve ate an apple? It's not in any bible I've read.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

No well maybe it was something else, my mistake.

 

[mozgrame]

So ... for you it is evidence based? If your belief is based on the currently available evidence it sounds somewhat conditional, bit like those agnostics you deride for not making up their mind!


Simple, the laws of physics do not allow for exceptions, and any purported interaction of pure spirit (not the kind that gave you the hangover, the other kind) with the physical world must involve an exception to those laws.


Come on, the Old Testament? With so many contradictions with the New testament - eye for an eye vs turn the other cheek, etc - to just pick and choose as it suits your argument is not very persuasive!

And neither is posing a loaded question about whether religion causes more deaths than rejection of religion... but extremists do not truly represent religion, and nor did Hitler, and German Christians can't be blamed...altogether too many qualifications there, so the whole argument threatens to turn to dust!

As to social justice issues, well obviously we live in this society and I'm sure we all have near and dear who are adversely affected in one way or another, in fact you'd have to be blind not to notice, lol

I don't deride the agnostics. New atheists do.

The very fact that you don't understand the bible...the difference between the old and new testaments...the whole point of the thing...who controls what according to the Christian worldview screams to me that you are trying to provoke rather than discuss. On the topic of arguing...your failure to grasp the very basics of what you're arguing against makes your argument not only not very persuasive...but embarrassingly (for yourself) flimsy.

Not many Christians I know are so because they read the bible. Most look for evidence outside the bible and decide for themselves.

I do like your argument against a creator based on science though. Lets do that some more.

I'll start...you believe in the big bang theory (and probably enjoy the tv show as well) So...now we are in 2020 and are so advanced...

What caused absolutely nothing to explode and create absolutely everything?

Also, you believe in evolution. (I don't know if you do, but you love to put words in peoples mouths, so I thought I'd repay the favour lol)

How did we get from goo...to the zoo...to you and I? I want not only the survival of the fittest, but the origin of the fittest.

Facts and undeniable proof. GO!

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Hmm, rather than you being the one to keep setting new tasks and assignments, why don't you simply comment on the point I raised about the laws of physics?

Preferably off the top of your head in your own words, so we can move this along a little

 

[mozgrame]

Oh and if you actually (like really) believe in Adam and Eve and the snake and the apple then I'm afraid I'm stumped and have no choice but to concede defeat.
Oh, just had one funny thought. Has anyone ever heard of Eve and Adam? I haven't. Adam always comes first. I guess that's because men are the original and best and woman just made from one bit of a man. And woman was the weak one who sinned, typical. Goddammit, it kind of explains a lot, now I think of it!

That's a bit sexist. Droll as well! Yeah, yeah...I get it.

Hold a grudge much? LOL!

 

[mozgrame]

Hmm, rather than you being the one to keep setting new tasks and assignments, why don't you simply comment on the point I raised about the laws of physics?

Preferably off the top of your head in your own words, so we can move this along a little

Well...it's all very simple. God doesn't obey the laws of physics.

Now, your turn. Off the top of your head...enlighten me...how did this all come about then?