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omnipotent beings discussion

Woodsie

played strong, done good.
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I’m a theology person myself... I prefer to leave ideology for the political enthusiasts and economic theorists to squabble over.
I believe you will find by any sensible examination ... that your theology .. is the very definition of an ideology ..

"A religion is an ideology in which one's relationship to the universe is personal and relational rather than material and mechanical. A religion is an organic ideology, as opposed to mechanistic ideology. Religion is a belief system resting on inexplicable ideas."
 

Kevinward777

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I believe you will find by any sensible examination ... that your theology .. is the very definition of an ideology ..

"A religion is an ideology in which one's relationship to the universe is personal and relational rather than material and mechanical. A religion is an organic ideology, as opposed to mechanistic ideology. Religion is a belief system resting on inexplicable ideas."
The last sentence in the above quote indicates this definition was penned by an ideologist does it not?

What do you expect to read?

When I went to Math class in high school, I knew that the teacher wasn’t going to start defining algebra as modern history.
 
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MuzztheEagle

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Not sure whether to post this here or the Netflix thread?
Classic Christians :)
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/jun/20/petition-netflix-cancel-amazon-prime-good-omens-christian-neil-gaiman-terry-pratchett

I'm also really enjoying the show:
But it is (partly) from the mind of Terry Pratchett so it won't be for everyone :p

'... it's one thing saying you've got the best god, but sayin' it's the only real one is a bit of cheek, in my opinion.'
'The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.'
 

Woodsie

played strong, done good.
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The last sentence in the above quote indicates this definition was penned by an ideologist does it not?

What do you expect to read?

When I went to Math class in high school, I knew that the teacher wasn’t going to start defining algebra as modern history.
By this response it is clear that you didn't understand a word of my previous post .... so to assist you I thought we should go back a step further and define what an "ideology" is .... I hope this helps you ...

"ideological. ... Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs. An ideology is a body of ideas, and those who agree with the main idea of something take an ideological stand to support it."
 

Kevinward777

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By this response it is clear that you didn't understand a word of my previous post .... so to assist you I thought we should go back a step further and define what an "ideology" is .... I hope this helps you ...

"ideological. ... Ideological is an adjective that describes political, cultural, or religious beliefs. An ideology is a body of ideas, and those who agree with the main idea of something take an ideological stand to support it."
Gotcha...
 

MuzztheEagle

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OK @Kevinward777
You think I'm too childish to have a proper debate about religion - can't help but make things personal, post childish memes etc.
Then bring it on - let's go another round or two :). If I resort to any such tactics then by all means you can claim a moral victory.

Here are some starting points for you:
You follow an organized religion, it may not have a specific name but both the old and new testaments were compiled by religions organizations. By rejecting the idea of modern existing organized religions you are simply cherry picking parts of these religions that suit your own ideas and rejecting those which don't.
With no evidence to support their beliefs, religions should have no right to impose their views on others. As an example we can show that children who are exposed significant amounts of alcohol may suffer from developmental disorders. This can be carried out by scientific studies and is supported by the majority of data which exists, although specific levels at which damage is caused is somewhat debated. As a result of this study we can regulate control of substance to children to protect them from potential damage.
On the other (religious) side we have the idea that homosexuality is a sin and will earn you eternal damnation from the creator. This cannot be tested (other than by having a relationship and dying) and is based purely on belief of the opinions of those in the past. There is no consensus from studies or experts relationship and mental health fields that quality of life is any less in a homosexual relationship. Yet this belief is not only something that should be protected but should be taken into consideration when dictating the legal status of people's relationships? What's more children are made to feel like there is something wrong and unnatural with them and even put into harmful reprogramming courses to correct their thinking, when homosexual are observed in non-human species. This is but one example of religions need to dictate it's own ideas onto not only it's own communities but all people within a society. It is wrong, and should not be justified.
These unjustified ideals harm people and are a cause of inequality, something you would probably claim that Jesus stood for. IMO they must be removed from our society. Yet you choose to preach the importance of belief and then cherry pick your chosen beliefs from the texts of organized religions that clearly discriminate against others. What if someone else choses to adopt beliefs from the same texts which discriminate against others and then act out on those beliefs? Are those acts of faith equally valid and deserving of protection?
 

Kevinward777

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OK @Kevinward777
You think I'm too childish to have a proper debate about religion - can't help but make things personal, post childish memes etc.
Then bring it on - let's go another round or two :). If I resort to any such tactics then by all means you can claim a moral victory.

Here are some starting points for you:
You follow an organized religion, it may not have a specific name but both the old and new testaments were compiled by religions organizations. By rejecting the idea of modern existing organized religions you are simply cherry picking parts of these religions that suit your own ideas and rejecting those which don't.
With no evidence to support their beliefs, religions should have no right to impose their views on others. As an example we can show that children who are exposed significant amounts of alcohol may suffer from developmental disorders. This can be carried out by scientific studies and is supported by the majority of data which exists, although specific levels at which damage is caused is somewhat debated. As a result of this study we can regulate control of substance to children to protect them from potential damage.
On the other (religious) side we have the idea that homosexuality is a sin and will earn you eternal damnation from the creator. This cannot be tested (other than by having a relationship and dying) and is based purely on belief of the opinions of those in the past. There is no consensus from studies or experts relationship and mental health fields that quality of life is any less in a homosexual relationship. Yet this belief is not only something that should be protected but should be taken into consideration when dictating the legal status of people's relationships? What's more children are made to feel like there is something wrong and unnatural with them and even put into harmful reprogramming courses to correct their thinking, when homosexual are observed in non-human species. This is but one example of religions need to dictate it's own ideas onto not only it's own communities but all people within a society. It is wrong, and should not be justified.
These unjustified ideals harm people and are a cause of inequality, something you would probably claim that Jesus stood for. IMO they must be removed from our society. Yet you choose to preach the importance of belief and then cherry pick your chosen beliefs from the texts of organized religions that clearly discriminate against others. What if someone else choses to adopt beliefs from the same texts which discriminate against others and then act out on those beliefs? Are those acts of faith equally valid and deserving of protection?
Dear Muzz- the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and again while expecting a different result, and I don’t expect anything to change or be gained by engaging in this discussion. It’s the very reason why I have ignored this stuff for the past couple of months.

From your multitude of posts regarding the subject, I already know you presume that anyone who professes to have a faith in Jesus is a bigoted, uneducated, mentally sick, hateful individual, and nothing I write is going to make a shred of difference. I will continue to believe what I believe... and you can do the same.

I wish you well.
 
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MuzztheEagle

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Dear Muzz- the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and again while expecting a different result. I don’t expect anything to change or be gained by engaging in this discussion. It’s the very reason why I have ignored this stuff for the past couple of months.

From your multitude of posts regarding the subject, I already know you presume that anyone who professes to have a faith in Jesus is a bigoted, ignorant, uneducated, mentally sick, hate filled individual, and nothing I write is going to make a shred of difference. I will continue to believe what I believe... and you can do the same.

I wish you well.
No mate, I don't believe that of those inflicted with the curse that is religion, quite the opposite. But you called me out as not being able to have a rational argument without acting like a child. Not only did you do that but you just called me insane, most likely in an effort to avoid the same result that you usually do :p
Don't want me to call you out - then don't act like you have any sort of moral high ground.
 

Kevinward777

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-
No mate, I don't believe that of those inflicted with the curse that is religion, quite the opposite. But you called me out as not being able to have a rational argument without acting like a child. Not only did you do that but you just called me insane, most likely in an effort to avoid the same result that you usually do :p
Don't want me to call you out - then don't act like you have any sort of moral high ground.
If you read my post again, you’ll find the reference to insanity was in fact directed at myself. I don’t have any moral high ground, and I didn’t call you out. The post you are alluding to was meant for the person I replied to because he was blowing up about being insulted, only to be doing the very same thing himself. I happened to mention you, because you were directly involved, and have been exhaustive in your quest of posting memes, videos and the like that depict Christians as judgemental imbeciles. (the whole pot and kettle thing comes to mind.)

Anyway, I won’t be engaging with you again on this subject, irrespective of anything you might post. And for the record, I am vehemently opposed to homophobia, church cover ups, religion, the prosperity doctrine, social/racial and economical injustice, Je$us Incorporated, and a whole host of other things which you presume that I am an advocate of.

Hope you have yourself a good night.
 
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MuzztheEagle

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-

If you read my post again, you’ll find the reference to insanity was in fact directed at myself. I don’t have any moral high ground, and I didn’t call you out. The post you are alluding to was directed towards the person I replied to because he was blowing up about being insulted, only to be doing the very same thing himself. I happened to mention you, because you were directly involved, and have been exhaustive in your quest of posting memes, videos and the like that depict Christians as judgemental imbeciles. (the whole pot and kettle thing comes to mind.)

Anyway, I won’t be engaging with you again on this subject, irrespective of anything you might post. And for the record, I am vehemently opposed to homophobia, church cover ups, religion, the prosperity doctrine, social/racial/economical injustice, Je$us Incorporated, and a whole host of other things which you presume that I advocate.

Hope you have a good night.
I made no attempt to ridicule biff and my attacks were leveled directly at the Mormon church something that biff himself has criticised.
If my attacks seem juvenile then explain to me why, they are all grounded in truth. Or simply accept that you simply don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to defending religion and stay silent :)
 

Eagle thru 'n' thru

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James 1:27 (ESV)
"Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world".
 

MuzztheEagle

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James 1:27 (ESV)
"Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world".
“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions." ~Thomas Jefferson, writing about the idea of the Trinity.
 

MuzztheEagle

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James 1:27 (ESV)
"Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world".
If we want to quote random passages then here you go:

Ecclesiastes 12:13: "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

Exodus 21:20-21 “And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.

Leviticus 25:44-45 "And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have — from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property."

Deuteronomy 23:1 “He who is emasculated by crushing or mutilation shall not enter the assembly of the LORD."

Peter 2:18 "Servants, be submissive to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh."
 

Woodsie

played strong, done good.
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I am a big fan of the relics ..... especially the Holy Prepuce or .... The Holy Foreskin Of all the
holy relics that circulated throughout medieval Europe, relics associated with Jesus Christ — anything he supposedly touched or used during his life — were the most prized.

By this measure, no relic was more valuable than the
Holy Foreskin since it was an actual body part of Christ. .....

So prized is the Holy foreskin ... that it appears that Jesus had 7 to 8 of them ..... scattered throughout Europe .....
 

MuzztheEagle

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Seeing as @Kevinward777 wants to avoid a similar result to our past discussions let's just retire this thread.

In case you missed it here is a summary:
Religious Type: You cannot understand my religion as it is based on faith and you choose not to believe.
Me: But aren't all religions based on the same concept of belief and faith?
R: Yes, but they have reached the wrong conclusion through their faith.
Me: Doesn't that make blind faith a poor method to make decisions about things
R: I don't want to answer that. This is stupid....why do you hate me? I'm a good person and you're just mean. etc. etc.

Religion actively encourages ignorance. For blind faith to be considered just as reasonable as logic and study is a repulsive idea. It allows for anything to be justified without question or criticism. If you have unjustifiable beliefs which do not negatively impact on the lives of others, or you keep those beliefs in your head were they belong without causing damage to others then whatever, have fun. But you have no right to use those beliefs to; judge, mistreat and exclude others, deny rights, earn/steal money, indoctrinate others into your belief system, spread misinformation and lies and whatever else I have missed. If you want to use religion and your unjustifiable beliefs to do that - then bring it on.
The world will become a better place when all people learn to use knowledge and logic to reach conclusions rather than blindly accepting the beliefs of those around them.
 

MuzztheEagle

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Hi @Woodsie, with repect this isn’t completely correct, ‘fossilisation’ has occurred in a matter of hours, it has been seen more than once in catastrophic events, such as volcanic eruptions and floods, fossils have also been produced in a lab by scientists. In fact the eruption of saint helens produced ‘fossils’ and rocks that were sent to a lab for dating and came back as millions of years old - yet they were 12 years old. These are recorded, searchable facts. The kind of strata layers and canyon produced by this event were previously thought to be something only millions of years could produce. The point is, dating methods are based on a set of assumptions - if those assumptions are wrong - it’s all wrong.

Also, evolution suggests that there are many many iterations that take place for one species to transition to another and each of these iterations would have literally thousands of units (just as we have thousands or millions of units within each species today) - multiply that over the entirety of species that have existed and you have billions of these iterations - which is more than the number of ‘end state’ dinosaurs of any specific type, or ‘end state’ species that have existed that have been found in the fossil record. Yet 100% of fossils found have been ‘end state’ - the numbers are just not in favour of evolution no matter which way you cut it.

I know we and others are not going to agree; however, I find it funny that Christians are mocked for their ‘blind faith’ yet evolution and the Big Bang requires just as much, if not more ‘blind faith’ as it is nothing more than a set of theories based on assumptions.

As for me I can’t help but see a clear and distinct intelligent design behind the complexities of life - the way the body works, animals, ecosystems, the sun and moon placed just at the precise distance from the earth in order to sustain life to control tides etc etc - it is far more logical to see the design of this (and therefore if there is a design there must be a designer), than the alternative - that everything we have today was a result of a big explosion that came from nothing and magically produced all the planets, stars, sun, etc and that some single cell organism was also magically created and then by its own will miraculously transitioned into every form of species we have today. Blind faith indeed.

I promise I will leave it here, as I respect that everyone will have their own view and I cannot force nor would I want to force people to believe mine; however, there is a lot of mocking of Christianity that goes on in this site, but I wonder how deeply people have analysed the legitimacy of their own beliefs.

So...Docker-Clay to get a crack in the 9 or what?
A couple of counter points for you.
I think a big misconception of religious people about science and scientific theory is that it aims to replace and even disprove the idea of a God. Theories aim to explain the observable world and universe around us, they do not claim to be correct but rather the best model available to explain things. They are continuously challenged and improved upon when new information becomes available.
As both an atheist and a Scientist I believe the big bang theory goes a long way to explain the conditions that existed in the early stage of the universe in its current state. I do not insist that this is truth or that explains the origin of the universe. What's more I have never heard anyone argue a stance on gay marriage based on the theory.
As an atheist I do not dispute the possibility of a God. I simply argue that there is no evidence to support the idea that one exists.

On the subject of the world being designed; do you think your explanation is the only plausible solution?
 
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