more COVID discussion

[Cioran]

The human race is prospering? Which society is that, exactly?

Well, obviously the dead babies and starvation in Africa you mention are not signs of prospering, so clearly by ‘the human race’ you just mean the important part. The white, privileged part. Fought for by our forebears in bloody wars, but sadly now under threat thanks to weak govts fussing around to protect unimportant lives.

Or did you mean something different?

All structured societies give the hope of stability and prosperity even if they lack the substance. It's a trait of humans and other living creatures to concern themselves with the society in which they live (and importantly breed) to the exclusion of others. That second is really and extension of a sound evolutionarily strategy and favours your genes over those of humans only very distantly related to you. I assumed you shared this trait when I suggested that you loose no sleep over the deaths of people in Africa.

 

[Woodsie]

@Cioran .. a couple of things .. firstly with the number of deaths, I did a couple of quick calculations and came up with the number of Aust. co-vid deaths that would have happened if we had followed the same path as the USA to be approx 50,000 .. and whilst I get your normal mortality rate .. do you differentiate between avoidable and unavoidable deaths .. and and on which side would the covid deaths sit ..

On the tragic situation in Africa .. I must confess the past 60 years of seeing exactly the same scenes has drained me of all emotion ... but unless the call for aid is to send an Army of occupation to over throw every Government in the land .. they are just wasting their time ..

 

[Kevinward777]

The human race is prospering? Which society is that, exactly?

Well, obviously the dead babies and starvation in Africa you mention are not signs of prospering, so clearly by ‘the human race’ you just mean the important part. The white, privileged part. Fought for by our forebears in bloody wars, but sadly now under threat thanks to weak govts fussing around to protect unimportant lives.

Or did you mean something different?

Do those deaths that @Cioran quoted in Africa bother you? Such high numbers of people die every day. So many of them are children. How often do you post etc., about this blatant economic injustice? Should the government start taxing Australian citizens to provide life-sustaining resources to developing countries? Would you be okay with that?

 

[Kevinward777]

@Cioran .. a couple of things .. firstly, with the number of deaths, I did a couple of quick calculations and came up with the number of Aust. Covid deaths that would have happened if we had followed the same path as the USA to be approx 50,000 .. and while I get your average mortality rate .. do you differentiate between avoidable and unavoidable deaths? And on which side would the covid deaths sit?

On the tragic situation in Africa. I must confess the past 60 years of seeing the same scenes has drained me of all emotion, but unless they call for aid to send an army of occupation to overthrow every government in the land, they are just wasting their time.

See what I did here.

 

[BOZO]

To sum all this up ...

Whilst there is human natures selfishness greed and evil in the world
Nothing will change

We must be born again feathered friends and turn away from our sins to the world and our fellow brothers and sisters


Have a great day
God bless you all
and Go Manly !!!

 

[Smokin Joe]

Your confusing me with a Qanon luny when I'm really just a garden variety luny. Personal liberty is just a tiny part of what I'm blathering about. Remember that millions of people who died in WW2 were fighting for national socialism or for communism. Social systems that traditionally don't list personal freedom high on their list of priorities. I'm much more worried about the long term damage being done to the economy, society and the political system. I can see some advantages in a heavily regulated society providing the dictator is truly benevolent. I'd probably nominate Ellen Johnson Serleaf as the last one of those I observed. I note her successor is some what less caring.

As for your little boy, I'm genuinely glad he's doing well and I'd be deeply saddened if he died. It would be hypocritical to say I'd be heart broken (I don't know him that well) but I would be deeply sad for you and your loss. However, to quote Carrot, personal isn't the same as important.

Ah,you really are a deep thinker(and reader),society(maybe the majority?) is what is more important,or is it the quality of the society?
It takes a unique individual to be prepared to put the welfare of the society ahead of their own personal situation,however I don't know you well enough to be able to say that you would truly do this if push came to shove(nothing personal lol).
I would truly like to know the damage to the economy that you are thinking of,or is it maybe just a change to a different type of economy such as how many European economies have had to shift to survive,or our over reliance on China creating a different way of doing business?
Is the damage to the society more of a divide like the possible civil war coming in the US from Trump and covid?
The political system has been broken for a long time(and getting worse),unless you abandon Capitalism how do you remove corruption and elitism (doesn't seem to matter which political system is there,people with selfish motives always seem driven to power)?

 

[manlyfan76]

All structured societies give the hope of stability and prosperity even if they lack the substance. It's a trait of humans and other living creatures to concern themselves with the society in which they live (and importantly breed) to the exclusion of others. That second is really and extension of a sound evolutionarily strategy and favours your genes over those of humans only very distantly related to you. I assumed you shared this trait when I suggested that you loose no sleep over the deaths of people in Africa.

26,000 DEATHS PER DAY from starvation and related conditions.

And we have had the cure for a long time.

 

[Smokin Joe]

All structured societies give the hope of stability and prosperity even if they lack the substance. It's a trait of humans and other living creatures to concern themselves with the society in which they live (and importantly breed) to the exclusion of others. That second is really and extension of a sound evolutionarily strategy and favours your genes over those of humans only very distantly related to you. I assumed you shared this trait when I suggested that you loose no sleep over the deaths of people in Africa.

I would think it would take a God like individual to have the entire capacity (mental/emotional/physical)to truly care and not be broken for every horrible situation that exists in the world,combined with the emotional indifference to allow the cleansing of the less necessary when the need arises.(I am talking about a benevolent dictator of Earth)
As an aside note,I am actually interested in the discussion and have no issue with your views and your right to express them,I am hoping you do not take my comments as any form of attack on you.

 

[Cioran]

Ah,you really are a deep thinker(and reader),society(maybe the majority?) is what is more important,or is it the quality of the society?
It takes a unique individual to be prepared to put the welfare of the society ahead of their own personal situation,however I don't know you well enough to be able to say that you would truly do this if push came to shove(nothing personal lol).
I would truly like to know the damage to the economy that you are thinking of,or is it maybe just a change to a different type of economy such as how many European economies have had to shift to survive,or our over reliance on China creating a different way of doing business?
Is the damage to the society more of a divide like the possible civil war coming in the US from Trump and covid?
The political system has been broken for a long time(and getting worse),unless you abandon Capitalism how do you remove corruption and elitism (doesn't seem to matter which political system is there,people with selfish motives always seem driven to power)?

You're right about the fundamental nature of humans (and other organisms) being self interest but humans - possibly through social conditioning - also have a remarkable capacity for altruism and self sacrifice. If I die of Covid I'm not going to be happy about it but it wouldn't be fundamentally wrong or bad.

The most obvious economic damage is that created by the large scale printing of currency. Most western governments have indulged in this during the crisis and a number of economists are warning of the possibility of hyperinflation in the next few years. In the past the way out of hyperinflation has usually been through a nice big depression or a nice big war.

I don't think there will be a civil war in America but the growing animosity between republicans and democrats, along with social tensions and a wealth of firearms, will probably result in some pretty ugly mass shootings and other incidents in the future.

Are you aware of the growing imbalance in age groups in several first world countries. In some countries the number of elderly and feeble people needing support and care is greater than the number of young people available to support and care for them. This situation is getting worse. Have you considered that Covid is a blessing rather than a curse and may have a very positive impact through redressing this imbalance? Yeah, I did throw that in just to rile you up.

 

[Cioran]

I would think it would take a God like individual to have the entire capacity (mental/emotional/physical)to truly care and not be broken for every horrible situation that exists in the world,combined with the emotional indifference to allow the cleansing of the less necessary when the need arises.(I am talking about a benevolent dictator of Earth)
As an aside note,I am actually interested in the discussion and have no issue with your views and your right to express them,I am hoping you do not take my comments as any form of attack on you.

No, I'm not offended and I hope my comments don't offend you or anybody else. I enjoy the banter on this site. You have to be careful what you say to people these days. Some people seem to take delight in taking offence.

By the way - I have considered the possibility that I'm God. There doesnt seem much point in the universe existing before I was here to appreciate it.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

... It's a trait of humans and other living creatures to concern themselves with the society in which they live (and importantly breed) to the exclusion of others. That second is really and extension of a sound evolutionarily strategy and favours your genes over those of humans only very distantly related to you.

Favoured genes? So a master race, is that what you are getting at?

 

[Cioran]

Favoured genes? So a master race, is that what you are getting at?

Even a humble toadstool carries genes - though only about a 5th of the number of genes that a human carries. A water flea, though, has several thousand more genes than a human. By logical extension Water Fleas are the master race.

I for one welcome out soggy overlords. I would recommend the human known as SeaEagleRock8 to you as being particularly succulent.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I take it that's a yes. Albeit just a bit timid to say it directly

 

[Cioran]

I take it that's a yes. Albeit just a bit timid to say it directly

If you don't do it as a reply I don't get a notification. Get with the program.

No such thing as a master race or a master species. There's either optimally adapted for the environment or suboptimally adapted for the environment. Environments change - often by the actions of organisms- and organisms change - often in response to environmental pressures. In the long run, that's all there is to it.

 

[Smokin Joe]

You're right about the fundamental nature of humans (and other organisms) being self interest but humans - possibly through social conditioning - also have a remarkable capacity for altruism and self sacrifice. If I die of Covid I'm not going to be happy about it but it wouldn't be fundamentally wrong or bad.

The most obvious economic damage is that created by the large scale printing of currency. Most western governments have indulged in this during the crisis and a number of economists are warning of the possibility of hyperinflation in the next few years. In the past the way out of hyperinflation has usually been through a nice big depression or a nice big war.

I don't think there will be a civil war in America but the growing animosity between republicans and democrats, along with social tensions and a wealth of firearms, will probably result in some pretty ugly mass shootings and other incidents in the future.

Are you aware of the growing imbalance in age groups in several first world countries. In some countries the number of elderly and feeble people needing support and care is greater than the number of young people available to support and care for them. This situation is getting worse. Have you considered that Covid is a blessing rather than a curse and may have a very positive impact through redressing this imbalance? Yeah, I did throw that in just to rile you up.

Oh don't worry,I believe there are too many humans on the planet as it is,but I am not putting my hand up or the hands of my family first lol,does getting rid of the elderly really solve the problem as the next generation will have even more children and just re-create the problem(maybe reducing the amount of young on the planet is better?Or one of the more deadly viruses with a mortality rate of 30% that you were talking about earlier?Or that war you were talking about might get rid of a few young uns' that just run around doing nothing useful. Jokes,just jokes).
Don't worry about riling me up,I have a 2 year old and an eight year old that would leave you in the dust lol.

 

[Smokin Joe]

No, I'm not offended and I hope my comments don't offend you or anybody else. I enjoy the banter on this site. You have to be careful what you say to people these days. Some people seem to take delight in taking offence.

By the way - I have considered the possibility that I'm God. There doesnt seem much point in the universe existing before I was here to appreciate it.

Nah,old fashion narcissism is less taxing than taking on supreme overlord as a job(might not pay as much tho...)

 

[Smokin Joe]

Favoured genes? So a master race, is that what you are getting at?

I think it is more a reference to taking care of your own,an analogy would be like when a new dominant male Lion displaces the old male,any cubs from the old male in the pride will usually be killed by the incoming male as it futhers his genes over the old males.

 

[manlyfan76]

I would think it would take a God like individual to have the entire capacity (mental/emotional/physical)to truly care and not be broken for every horrible situation that exists in the world,combined with the emotional indifference to allow the cleansing of the less necessary when the need arises

 

[wombatgc]

Even a humble toadstool carries genes - though only about a 5th of the number of genes that a human carries. A water flea, though, has several thousand more genes than a human. By logical extension Water Fleas are the master race.

I for one welcome out soggy overlords. I would recommend the human known as SeaEagleRock8 to you as being particularly succulent.

Unt everyone bow to ze master race yah.

 

[Dion Johnson]

Let's see if I can get some steam coming out of your ears.

Yes I am beating a drum and I rather hope there's someone out there who will appreciate and think about the rhythm.

I don't care about Covid deaths. The disease simply doesn't kill enough people to have a significant impact on society and the people who it does kill are largely evolutionarily and economically unimportant. If this was the black death, small pox, cholera, Ebola, the Spanish flue, MERS, SARS, typhoid, malaria etc than the death rate would be sufficient to disrupt society. Covid won't do that. Scomo claimed that if we hadn't acted to stamp out Covid we may have had 30 thousand deaths in 2020. If that had happened the number of Australians who died in 2020 would have been similar to the number who died in 2019. Not significant to society. In the first 18 months of Covid 4 million people died of the disease. In the same period 7.5 million children under 5 died in the third world because they didn't have adequate food, clean water, or access to medical care. I suspect the annual death of 5 million babies in developing countries doesn't keep you awake at night. 20 million people in East Africa face starvation due to a locust infestation partly caused by global warming and exacerbated by a lack of insectacide. I'm guessing this isn't keeping you awake either. I know it doesn't keep me awake. It's terrible but inconsequential to our society.

A few million deaths aren't important. What's important is society. Society provides the support and framework that enables the human race to continue and prosper. This human race includes generations of your decendants who will live and die long after you're gone. Your grand parents and great grandparents understood this and they sacrificed 100s of millions of lives in bloody wars to protect their society, sovereignty and the futures of their children. Now we're sacrificing the society they fought for to extend a handful of lives.

When this disease first emerged I wrote that it reminded me of hoof and mouth disease. It's not the disease that kills every animal in 200 miles, it's our response to the disease.

I'm watching our society, economy, community, international relationships, and political structures being demolished and reshaped in response to a pretty ineffectual pandemic and I find it fascinating and more than a bit scary. It's the biggest and most significant even of the past 100 years and I'd like to be able to discuss it, study it, and come to some understanding of all its ramifications and of how we got into this mess.

Stay safe and keep posting. You always have good input on football and social issues.

Great take on it, the one thing that stands out to me is how the Chinese are still treating Covid the same as they did in January 2020, two days ago they put 4 million people into a hard lockdown, this is a country that have vaccination as a must not a choice.

Do the Chinese have more data then the rest of the world and why are they still reacting to covid in this manner is the only concern I have on it.