Manly's Sports Science Unit To Be Audited
- Thread starter clontaago
- Start date
bones
Bones Knows
lsz said:
I have no idea how much politics were involved and nor do I care. But what I'm saying is that WAMF, and anyone else who may believe it was a political stunt, are entitled to say so. Why should there be no further mention of this opinion just because you don't agree with it?
More so because every thread becomes a political discussion (and a rant about the Gillard government)
The issue at hand is drugs in sport, organised crime / match fixing
I understand where WAMF and others are coming from but rather than turn it into a poiltical thread I would rather we discuss the issue at hand
All that said if others want to continue to do so then they should be able to do so (so I am agreeing with you here)
The issue at hand is drugs in sport, organised crime / match fixing
I understand where WAMF and others are coming from but rather than turn it into a poiltical thread I would rather we discuss the issue at hand
All that said if others want to continue to do so then they should be able to do so (so I am agreeing with you here)
Hamster Huey
Space Invader
Volley said:
I respectably disagree. Everybody is capable of it.
lsz said:
The issue has become that we don't know what the issue is, despite a widely-broadcast and damning press conference that said we had an issue!!! So why the PUBLIC release?
Timing was sus; making five senior heads of sport stand up there with little idea of what their respective sports were alleged to be involved in, was wrong; telling us all that it was the 'darkest day' in Australian sport was pure sensationalism; and the fact that since then a made up number of 150 people to be investigated was leveled at the codes spells that the investigation to that point was at best, half baked. Add to that no police force in this country is even running a current investigation based on this matter.
No matter what the elements in the background which are/could be a problem within the professional sporting circles, it is abundantly clear that the public release was rushed and an ultimately pointless.
RL Gronk
Reserve Grader
lsz said:
There's good reason for that, this current federal government is the worst since federation of course people are going to talk about it. This ACC drugs in sport abortion is just another example of everything this government touches turns to excrement. You only have to read the results of today's nelisen poll to see that.
Rex
Bencher
When it all boils down to it, there have been 348 posts so far about not much at all. First there was announcement of the use of illegal and banned drugs, possible match fixing, and links to criminal organisations by unnamed and unidentified people. Does ANYONE still think this is not the truth?
If the people (that is us) were at all sane, we would have thought, well this is probably true, and with patience we'll find out more in due course.
Insane public reaction: Massive outrage, demands to be more specific immediately.
The authorities provide a little more info, and now there is massive outrage there is more specific info available. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Could the public (i.e. us) be any more insane?
Surely the sane response now is to take a breath, develop some patience, stop panicking about how other insane people might overreact, and just wait and see what the outcome is.
Yes?
If the people (that is us) were at all sane, we would have thought, well this is probably true, and with patience we'll find out more in due course.
Insane public reaction: Massive outrage, demands to be more specific immediately.
The authorities provide a little more info, and now there is massive outrage there is more specific info available. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Could the public (i.e. us) be any more insane?
Surely the sane response now is to take a breath, develop some patience, stop panicking about how other insane people might overreact, and just wait and see what the outcome is.
Yes?
Hamster Huey
Space Invader
Rex said:
So again, what was the point of making a big announcement and releasing only non-specific and issues not under police investigation.
People aren't insane; they're frustrated. Codes are being dragged through the mud and clubs are still trying to do business under clouds of doubt that are not of their own doing.
The 'sane' thing would have been to NOT make this public like it was and to the extent that it cast doubt over many sports, people and clubs.
Rex
Bencher
Hamster Huey said:
Just because you don't know of, understand or accept reasons doesn't mean there aren't valid ones. Your feelings of intolerance don't support your reasoning - they are a warning indicator that your reasoning is affected by your emotions.
These knee-jerk reactions ARE insanity. Things will be revealed in their own good time. The only thing achieved by working yourself into a flurry is that you get worked into a flurry.
The ACC and ASADA will do what they determine is best. You don't like that? Paul Kent doesn't like it? Redneck Hadlee doesn't like it? Tough.
You have the option of letting Hadlee and Kent and co be the drama queens on their lonesome, rather than letting them pull your strings as they please.
ManlyBacker
Winging it
Hamster Huey said:
I'll agree with your thoughts at this stage HH. I found it disgusting to label every sport in Australia as potential cheats and criminals and not put up any evidence. This could definitely have been handled better. Maybe they were rushed by the Essendon material but that really doesn't mean that every code and participant needs to be under a cloud. WMD's anyone?
Rex
Bencher
ManlyBacker said:
See - this is how things get so easily twisted.
Who labelled "every sport in Australia as potential cheats and criminals". More accurately what did they ACTUALLY say?
And is "every code and participant ... under a cloud"? Not in my mind. In yours?
Do you think it possible that some unidentified players, somewhere, are likely using banned peptides? And would you exclude any codes? If so, are you placing "every code and participant ... under a cloud"? See how ludicrous this logic is?
The cool-headed people here simply see the situation as it is. Not as the media pump it up to be.
ManlyBacker
Winging it
Not so Rex. Here is Lundy's transcript and you work out if I am being unfair:
"The Australian Crime Commission today released the findings of a 12-month investigation into the integrity of Australian sport and the relationship between professional sporting bodies, prohibited substances and organised crime.
In response the Gillard Government together with Australia’s major professional sports have announced tough new measures to crack down on the use of performance enhancing drugs and unethical behaviour in sport.
The Australian Crime Commission investigation (codenamed Project Aperio) was supported by the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority (ASADA) and the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA).
Four key areas were examined:
The market for Performance and Image Enhancing Drugs (PIEDs)
The involvement of organised criminal identities and groups in the distribution of new generation PIEDs
The use of World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) prohibited substances by professional athletes in Australia
Current threats to the integrity of professional sport in Australia.
Key findings
The investigation identified widespread use of prohibited substances including peptides, hormones and illicit drugs in professional sport.
It also found that this use has been facilitated by sports scientists, high-performance coaches and sports staff.
In some cases, players are being administered with substances that have not yet been approved for human use.
The ACC also identified organised crime identities and groups that are involved in the distribution of PIEDs to athletes and professional sports staff.
The ACC report notes increasing evidence of personal relationships of concern between professional athletes and organised criminal identities and groups. This may have resulted in match fixing and the fraudulent manipulation of betting markets.
“The Australian Crime Commission has found that professional sport in Australia is highly vulnerable to infiltration by organised crime,†Mr Clare said.
“Multiple athletes from a number of clubs in major Australian sporting codes are suspected of currently using or having previously used peptides, potentially constituting anti-doping rule violations. Officials from clubs have also been identified as administering, via injections and intravenous drips, a variety of substances.â€
The report concluded that some coaches, sports scientists and support staff of elite athletes have orchestrated and/or condoned the use of prohibited substances. Some sports scientists have indicated a preparedness to administer substances to elite athletes which are untested or not yet approved for human use.
The Australian Crime Commission also found that illicit drug use by professional athletes is more prevalent than previously indicated in official sports drug testing program statistics.
The work the Australian Crime Commission has done has confirmed that organised crime has a tangible and expanding role in the provision of prohibited substances to professional athletes, and this is facilitated by some coaches and support staff.
The Australian Crime Commission has referred its findings in relation to suspected criminal activity to relevant law enforcement agencies including the Australian Federal Police and all State and Territory Police Forces.
ASADA and other regulatory agencies will undertake additional investigations on the basis of the Crime Commission findings."
"The Australian Crime Commission today released the findings of a 12-month investigation into the integrity of Australian sport and the relationship between professional sporting bodies, prohibited substances and organised crime.
In response the Gillard Government together with Australia’s major professional sports have announced tough new measures to crack down on the use of performance enhancing drugs and unethical behaviour in sport.
The Australian Crime Commission investigation (codenamed Project Aperio) was supported by the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority (ASADA) and the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA).
Four key areas were examined:
The market for Performance and Image Enhancing Drugs (PIEDs)
The involvement of organised criminal identities and groups in the distribution of new generation PIEDs
The use of World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) prohibited substances by professional athletes in Australia
Current threats to the integrity of professional sport in Australia.
Key findings
The investigation identified widespread use of prohibited substances including peptides, hormones and illicit drugs in professional sport.
It also found that this use has been facilitated by sports scientists, high-performance coaches and sports staff.
In some cases, players are being administered with substances that have not yet been approved for human use.
The ACC also identified organised crime identities and groups that are involved in the distribution of PIEDs to athletes and professional sports staff.
The ACC report notes increasing evidence of personal relationships of concern between professional athletes and organised criminal identities and groups. This may have resulted in match fixing and the fraudulent manipulation of betting markets.
“The Australian Crime Commission has found that professional sport in Australia is highly vulnerable to infiltration by organised crime,†Mr Clare said.
“Multiple athletes from a number of clubs in major Australian sporting codes are suspected of currently using or having previously used peptides, potentially constituting anti-doping rule violations. Officials from clubs have also been identified as administering, via injections and intravenous drips, a variety of substances.â€
The report concluded that some coaches, sports scientists and support staff of elite athletes have orchestrated and/or condoned the use of prohibited substances. Some sports scientists have indicated a preparedness to administer substances to elite athletes which are untested or not yet approved for human use.
The Australian Crime Commission also found that illicit drug use by professional athletes is more prevalent than previously indicated in official sports drug testing program statistics.
The work the Australian Crime Commission has done has confirmed that organised crime has a tangible and expanding role in the provision of prohibited substances to professional athletes, and this is facilitated by some coaches and support staff.
The Australian Crime Commission has referred its findings in relation to suspected criminal activity to relevant law enforcement agencies including the Australian Federal Police and all State and Territory Police Forces.
ASADA and other regulatory agencies will undertake additional investigations on the basis of the Crime Commission findings."
MB, the announcement did not 'label every sport in Australia as potential cheats and criminals'. That is not what it said at all.
And don't worry too much Rex. My guess is HH & Co are also appalled at the slur on all drivers that we all have to submit to random breath tests.
Maybe they haven't heard of the concept, 'prevention is better than cure'?
Some may prefer a covert gathering of evidence. To make sure we can scapegoat a few feckless individuals. In order to keep the rest of the game's image 'clean'.
But is that really the game's image? Clean. Really? In very recent times we have already seen monumental cheating in the NRL by corrupt officials. We have already had one infamous case of match-fixing.
The modern game has made some advances, but the fact remains it has a somewhat shady past. Our game was not traditionally known as a bastion of principled behaviour and good citizenship. The leagues club environment provided ongoing links with gambling and associated 'undesirable elements'. And every so often there were whispered rumours of player atrocities being successfully hushed up by influential clubs - with the help of their mates in the press.
These factors combined to give the game a reputation. Occasionally it even had the whiff of a certain low-grade, unsophisticated corruption. Never openly exposed to the bright light of public scrutiny, of course. Well, apart from when the ex-boss of the whole game was disgraced and almost brought down an entire state government with the web of corruption that was uncovered around him.
The game in the past had a reputation for thuggish-ness. Sure, there have always been the clean-cut, honourable Frank Hyde types. But equally the game was known for its ruffian element, who would routinely engage in acts of thuggery on-field, and quite possibly off-field.
Yet HH and some others are adamant the game is pure and does not deserve the slur cast on it.
The use of PEDs has been an obvious elephant in the room for years - how can we say there is no risk of large-scale cheating and corruption? Even as the boss of ACC is telling us there is? And why is it not possible that the announcement was designed, as claimed, to protect the good name of our sports, and try to head off an imminent PR disaster?
And don't worry too much Rex. My guess is HH & Co are also appalled at the slur on all drivers that we all have to submit to random breath tests.
Maybe they haven't heard of the concept, 'prevention is better than cure'?
Some may prefer a covert gathering of evidence. To make sure we can scapegoat a few feckless individuals. In order to keep the rest of the game's image 'clean'.
But is that really the game's image? Clean. Really? In very recent times we have already seen monumental cheating in the NRL by corrupt officials. We have already had one infamous case of match-fixing.
The modern game has made some advances, but the fact remains it has a somewhat shady past. Our game was not traditionally known as a bastion of principled behaviour and good citizenship. The leagues club environment provided ongoing links with gambling and associated 'undesirable elements'. And every so often there were whispered rumours of player atrocities being successfully hushed up by influential clubs - with the help of their mates in the press.
These factors combined to give the game a reputation. Occasionally it even had the whiff of a certain low-grade, unsophisticated corruption. Never openly exposed to the bright light of public scrutiny, of course. Well, apart from when the ex-boss of the whole game was disgraced and almost brought down an entire state government with the web of corruption that was uncovered around him.
The game in the past had a reputation for thuggish-ness. Sure, there have always been the clean-cut, honourable Frank Hyde types. But equally the game was known for its ruffian element, who would routinely engage in acts of thuggery on-field, and quite possibly off-field.
Yet HH and some others are adamant the game is pure and does not deserve the slur cast on it.
The use of PEDs has been an obvious elephant in the room for years - how can we say there is no risk of large-scale cheating and corruption? Even as the boss of ACC is telling us there is? And why is it not possible that the announcement was designed, as claimed, to protect the good name of our sports, and try to head off an imminent PR disaster?
ManlyBacker
Winging it
SeaEagleRock8 said:
By not specifically naming any code or clubs under investigation then the inference is that it could be anywhere. Yes?
SeaEagleRock8 said:
How is it protecting the good names of our sports if none are named? By making a generic statement about how dire the situation is then all are implicated. If they had only said they had concerns about AFL, NRL, soccer, weight lifting, cycling, boxing, tennis I could understand. What about RU, cricket, rowing, baseball? Is there an end to where the problem lies? The answer is no one knows until they tell us. Therefore they are all under a cloud.
20% of women will be directly affected by domestic violence. Whoa – they can't say that! Without specifying which men are guilty that casts a slur on all of us…
Only a tiny proportion of perpetrators of domestic violence are ever prosecuted. And a way-more-tiny proportion are actually convicted, because for a variety of reasons it is very common that the victims don't follow through and give evidence in court.
Would you say it is unpardonable to make a blanket assertion that there is a major issue with DV in our communities, because that taints the 'innocent' men? I would say on the contrary it is unpardonable not to make that statement.
Only a tiny proportion of perpetrators of domestic violence are ever prosecuted. And a way-more-tiny proportion are actually convicted, because for a variety of reasons it is very common that the victims don't follow through and give evidence in court.
Would you say it is unpardonable to make a blanket assertion that there is a major issue with DV in our communities, because that taints the 'innocent' men? I would say on the contrary it is unpardonable not to make that statement.
Hamster Huey
Space Invader
Rex said:
Please, Rex. Don't try and frame me as a 'Kent' or 'Hadley' because of my opinion.
We've just had a potential major sponsor walk from talks with the Sharks under the shadow of these allegations. To date, there is NO information out there to pin anything on the Sharks past except for innuendo and circumstancial 'evidence'.
My gripe has NEVER been that there isn't likely a problem; it has been the nature of the release of this report and the subsequent impacts on innocent parties.
Rex said:
So you would prefer to blame the media in this case, even though the whole release process was aimed specifically to be broadcast widely, with emotive language utilised by those present when outlining 'there is a problem'?
I think that when you boil down the issue here, across the board people agree almost unanimously that the way in which the release of this ACC report was done, was far from the best way.
It was force-fed to a hungry media looking to run the story on sports next big thing, but quickly were frustrated at the lack of information after the press conference.
Some of the vocal media types take that frustration and want to ask, '...is there really a problem,' while some of us are frustrated in seeing codes, clubs and players names tarnished at this time, for no good reason.
ManlyBacker
Winging it
SER8, a similar analogy is the minute incidence of child predators. By bringing it rightfully into the public conscience it has had a negative impact on all men and their relationship with children. I can't tell you how many times a swarm of protective individuals charge in if you start a conversation with a child, even in the middle of thousands of people. Every man is now feared and under suspicion. I get on incredibly well with kids, I always have, but I never talk to them anymore because of the way people now think and react. Maybe overkill on my part but it is much easier not to put up with it.
Hamster Huey
Space Invader
SeaEagleRock8 said:
Bull$hit, SER. You clearly did not comprehend my point on this issue and have generalised my opinion with ridiculous slurs with no basis in reality.
Go back, have a re-read of what it is that bugs me, and try and provide a response that lines-up to my actual concerns on this matter.
Masked Eagle
Bencher
Sharks have struggled their entire history to get and hold onto sponsors. Sure the current innuendo may have played a part, but to blame it entirely for having a lack of sponsors or a major sponsor or a ground sponsor wouldn't be entirely accurate.
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