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Manase Fainu

simon64

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No-one is proved innocent in a case like this. The prosecution can successfully prove their case beyond reasonable doubt, or fail to prove it beyond reasonable doubt. Any reasonable doubt, and the jury must find you not guilty. That is not the same as being ‘proven innocent’.

Well assuming that "beyond a reasonable doubt" is a lesser determination than "proven", the decision that that is good enough in such cases was obviously made by members of the legal profession. No ? I'm not a lawyer.

I'm happy to go with their ruling that this is good enough.
 

frank stokes

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Well assuming that "beyond a reasonable doubt" is a lesser determination than "proven", the decision that that is good enough in such cases was obviously made by members of the legal profession. No ? I'm not a lawyer.

I'm happy to go with their ruling that this is good enough.
He may correct me but I think what SER8 was saying is that you are either "proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" or you are found "not guilty due to reasonable doubt"...

the court does not "prove you innocent beyond a reasonable doubt"...

that's how I read it anyways... and I agree...
 
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I had a good chat with AFB down at the gym today he actually comes across as a pretty good bloke and feels bad about our current predicament. Despite the obvious holes in our side he reckons with Tom and a decent hooker we would be winning more than we are losing.

I asked him about Manase and he reckons he is definitely innocent and someone had recently come forward and made a statement to the police that clears Manase. The Cops are stilling looking to take it to trial. With this new development the club went to the NRL to get him cleared to play however they won’t do anything until he has gone to court.

I thanked him for getting injured so he didn’t have to play against us and given he will be out for 10 weeks at least we won’t face him in second round either.
:clap:
That's very interesting. Hopefully its true! This year is a write off but wouldn't it be nice to start next season with Fainu and Turbo both playing.
 

Loobs

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He may correct me but I think what SER8 was saying is that you are either "proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" or you are found "not guilty due to reasonable doubt"...

the court does not "prove you innocent beyond a reasonable doubt"...

that's how I read it anyways... and I agree...
A good example is Milat's defence. His team was not trying to prove he was innocent, rather that a sibling was also involved, i.e creating enough doubt as to who did what that it couldn't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Ivan committed the murders. Then Ivan got on the stand, made a Freudian slip and ****ed that whole argument up haha
 

frank stokes

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A good example is Milat's defence. His team was not trying to prove he was innocent, rather that a sibling was also involved, i.e creating enough doubt as to who did what that it couldn't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Ivan committed the murders. Then Ivan got on the stand, made a Freudian slip and ****ed that whole argument up haha
The defence should have given him one instruction... then again, they probably did and old Ivan just thought he was smarter...
 

HoldenV8

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I had a good chat with AFB down at the gym today he actually comes across as a pretty good bloke and feels bad about our current predicament. Despite the obvious holes in our side he reckons with Tom and a decent hooker we would be winning more than we are losing.

I asked him about Manase and he reckons he is definitely innocent and someone had recently come forward and made a statement to the police that clears Manase. The Cops are stilling looking to take it to trial. With this new development the club went to the NRL to get him cleared to play however they won’t do anything until he has gone to court.

I thanked him for getting injured so he didn’t have to play against us and given he will be out for 10 weeks at least we won’t face him in second round either.
:clap:

Interesting that players from other clubs, even former Sea Eagles, can see that Croker is no hooker and that not having an actual dummy half in the team each week is hurting us.

Why can't Des see it?
 

Loobs

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The defence should have given him one instruction... then again, they probably did and old Ivan just thought he was smarter...
There is a good book on Mark Tedeschi's cross that shows how he just hammered poor Ivan into that slip. Good read but its essentially a legal textbook and LexisNexis charges like a wounded bull...
 

SeaEagleRock8

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Well assuming that "beyond a reasonable doubt" is a lesser determination than "proven", the decision that that is good enough in such cases was obviously made by members of the legal profession. No ? I'm not a lawyer.

I'm happy to go with their ruling that this is good enough.
@frank stokes explained it better than me, thanks. It is actually possible to be proven innocent, but that would typically be a case where the only evidence against you is forensic evidence and it turns out it was someone else's DNA :)
In this case, from memory, Debelin and his mate admit intercourse but claim consent. It's all about whether some jurors think he might be telling the truth. Doesn't mean any of them have to be convinced he's innocent. This in a nutshell is our time-honoured notion of beyond reasonable doubt.
If he is guilty he'd end up at Parklea...serious offence, serious prison.
Its a prick of a place, privately owned, but in fact Dept of Corrective Services will send you anywhere it suits them in NSW, they have a number of suitable hell-holes, all of them over crowded to the extent of 2 out in a one person cell, 3 out n a 2 person cell, etc.
Don't drink and drive folks :)
 

Supreme Leader

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@frank stokes explained it better than me, thanks. It is actually possible to be proven innocent, but that would typically be a case where the only evidence against you is forensic evidence and it turns out it was someone else's DNA :)
In this case, from memory, Debelin and his mate admit intercourse but claim consent. It's all about whether some jurors think he might be telling the truth. Doesn't mean any of them have to be convinced he's innocent. This in a nutshell is our time-honoured notion of beyond reasonable doubt.

Its a prick of a place, privately owned, but in fact Dept of Corrective Services will send you anywhere it suits them in NSW, they have a number of suitable hell-holes, all of them over crowded to the extent of 2 out in a one person cell, 3 out n a 2 person cell, etc.
Don't drink and drive folks :)
Consent, interesting discussion, what is or isn't consent. Again as I said earlier in another post. Generally the facts are clouded, hence it's up to a jury to decide which story is more believable, this is what the judges normally say to the jury. At end of the day I really question, and I mean this with total respect to women and girls in general (and no is no!), but I have to question it is very hard to prove you didn't.... so where is your innocent until proven guilty? It's up to the story that is best believed. It is always hard when he said she said and genrally no one will ever know the truth.

I accept this in the current environment is politically incorrect but I have witnessed this.
 

Simonmyers11

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Interesting that players from other clubs, even former Sea Eagles, can see that Croker is no hooker and that not having an actual dummy half in the team each week is hurting us.

Why can't Des see it?
Maybe Dez and Manly thought that with the new witnesses coming forward would be enough to get the NRL to allow him to play, hence why they also resigned him. Very confident he will get off. Absolute b.s if found not guilty on NRLs behalf, been out of the game for almost two years and I guess because of covid has drawn out the Court hearing, but he is possibly very well sitting on the side lines at the moment because of people out there wrongly accusing him because they have an agenda against him.
 

frank stokes

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he is possibly very well sitting on the side lines at the moment because of people out there wrongly accusing him because they have an agenda against him.
Yep and he he possibly has people willing to lie for him too... who knows? I know one thing, even if AFB KNEW he did it then I seriously doubt he would be spilling his guts to a punter...

Time will tell...
 

peterh

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If you were down to your last dollar and had to bet on it, hands down the safe bet is that he did it.
He (and Manly) are probably counting on seeing a bunch of witnesses with opposing stories go through the courts, Fainu's mates v the bloke he stabbed's mates and that will lead to enough doubt so the jury won't convict him.
But honestly does anyone out there really believe he didn't do what he was accused of?
 

peterh

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Interesting that players from other clubs, even former Sea Eagles, can see that Croker is no hooker and that not having an actual dummy half in the team each week is hurting us.

Why can't Des see it?

Because Des is a f****** idiot.
 

Ron E. Gibbs

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But honestly does anyone out there really believe he didn't do what he was accused of?
I have no idea. All I know is what I've heard from the media, which is secondhand information anyway, and certainly not enough for me to base an opinion on one way or the other. The only thing that's going to matter is what the jury says. And even then, all I'll be able to say for certain is that a jury found him innocent or guilty. Up till then, he's entitled to a presumption of innocence.
 

Jerry1

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If you were down to your last dollar and had to bet on it, hands down the safe bet is that he did it.
He (and Manly) are probably counting on seeing a bunch of witnesses with opposing stories go through the courts, Fainu's mates v the bloke he stabbed's mates and that will lead to enough doubt so the jury won't convict him.
But honestly does anyone out there really believe he didn't do what he was accused of?
I’d be a bit careful with this mate.
 

tookey

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I had a good chat with AFB down at the gym today he actually comes across as a pretty good bloke and feels bad about our current predicament. Despite the obvious holes in our side he reckons with Tom and a decent hooker we would be winning more than we are losing.

I asked him about Manase and he reckons he is definitely innocent and someone had recently come forward and made a statement to the police that clears Manase. The Cops are stilling looking to take it to trial. With this new development the club went to the NRL to get him cleared to play however they won’t do anything until he has gone to court.

I thanked him for getting injured so he didn’t have to play against us and given he will be out for 10 weeks at least we won’t face him in second round either.
:clap:
You should ask him the real story as to why he left us
 

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