Kapow / Walker - there's a new sheriff!!

[maxta]

Sheridan, the only people saying Marty & Walker want out are the d!ckhead journos & many in here! I've not once heard either say they want out, yet many in here seem to want them gone to ease cap space & sign who? Whoever we sign will not be in the same class & we will end up at the bottom of the table again! Anyway not gonna say anymore. I hope they stay, prove the doubters wrong & we get rid of the real deadwood!

Who says they are d***heads??
Simply seemed to do things by their own rules and got away with it far more under Barrett than they will Des - personally want them both to stay and think by making the team a tighter unit, will be a great thing for them, the football club and the fans.

 

[Cameron]

Interesting comment..you have said recently that you have not been watching Manly games the last couple of years,(or is that just not going to home games?)and you now say that we have not gotten value for money from Taupau and Walker.Seriously mate....they are 2 of a very effing small group who have put in,they might not fit the Des mould of what he wants and so be it if so.But to criticize them for their efforts is piss poor from you,they have put in and to lay the boot in is weak.Yeah they may go but they have been and will be 2 guys who have tried their guts out the last couple of years.Des will get the side in time he wants and as he coach that is only right,but fxxk me,I am sick of people laying the boot into guys who are supposedly not interested in getting on the Des bus with no facts about it.What so many people seem to be ignoring is that Des has as much to prove to us Manly supporters as any of the effing players......

Incorrect mate. I may not have been to game but I have made myself watch them and I gotta say in 2018 that was painful.

When it comes to value for money. Walker for example has had much luck with injury and has missed a heap of games.

Marty is rocks and diamonds, makes a lot of meters and can get some second phase play going but also can hand the ball over he would need to go to another level this season to be worth 900k imo. Not his fault that one comes down to team Barrett.

 

[madmax]

Who says they are d***heads??
Simply seemed to do things by their own rules and got away with it far more under Barrett than they will Des - personally want them both to stay and think by making the team a tighter unit, will be a great thing for them, the football club and the fans.

Maxta........I called the journos d!ckheads. To be honest I think all the players did their own thing under Barrett. Anyway mate like you i hope they stay & embrace the old Manly culture & we all enjoy the ride!

 

[The Wheel]

don Pignone #asklurk Any truth to Ma'u > Tigers and Parra trying for Taupau?

The Lurker: The first one is a chance although they don’t want to let Ma'u go. That may change if they get big Marty but Eagles not about to release him

 

[Smokin Joe]

You do realise we were bottom of the ladder with these players...
And if you don't ease cap pressure you'll never make another signing.

The cap is all about value for money. Taupaus deal has been backended. We got him great value for money initially but now he isn't worth the $900k pricetag making him an obvious option for moving on...in my opinion.

And no one is suggesting getting rid of all the best players...
But getting rid of backended deal players who now aren't worth the money their on... Makes sense.

AFB would be half the cost of Taupau and is doing an equal, if not better job of impacting a game from a props perspective.

900k spent on winning the metres battle is wasted if it doesn't win you games. This happened many times this year.

I get what you are saying,but the squad is not so bad.I don't care about the reasons why it wasn't so,but if we had Green at 5/8 or Trent had been brave enough to play Hastings as he should have,we would probably be a fair bit further away from the bottom.A fair few games lost by just a couple of points....not saying we would have been top 4 ,but a lot better....

 

[manly al]

Presumably Marty "s contract and cap level will return to some normal range next season and the cap provisions can be then adjusted more favorably . With A F B , a very formidable front row starting pair so ideally better to keep him in the ranks , including next season . Kelly has now gone so according to previous indications , a better chance and reason to retain Marty . Still need quality players to help get to that required competitive level, Marty is certainly in that category , so would be preferable to keep him and with him in the right head space .

 

[manly al]

Presumably Marty "s contract and cap level will return to some normal range next season and the cap provisions can be then adjusted more favorably . With A F B , a very formidable front row starting pair so ideally better to keep him in the ranks , including next season . Kelly has now gone so according to previous indications , a better chance and reason to retain Marty . Still need quality players to help get to that required competitive level, Marty is certainly in that category , so would be preferable to keep him and with him in the right head space .

Next season meaning 2020

 

[Smokin Joe]

100% agree with you.

Green is a prime example, we couldn't afford to keep him. Probably because of our money being tied up in backended deals.

My argument isn't whether our squad is good or bad anyway. I believe we have a great top 17. My argument is about value for money.

My biggest gripe with our squad is game management and more importantly, depth.

When you have blokes tied up on backended deals, it limits your spending on other areas... Depth and fixing weaknesses.

We have a quality starting 17. An injury to any of those guys and the difference between our best and worst is quite a gap.
Reminds me of the dragons last year. Great guns until injuries....

Yep,as to Green,we could have upgraded,but chose not to,we let him go because we thought we had Pearce lined up but ended up getting white-anted and then signed Thompson as plan b.As to depth,I think we had enough going into the season.Our line up at the start of the year was,
1 Trbojevic
2 Taufua
3 Kelly
4 Walker
5 Uate
6 Green
7 DCE
8 D.Lussick
9 Korisau
10Taupau
11Thompson(had the cap space to sign him but chose to go after bigger fish)
12Sironen
13Trbojevic
14Tanginoa
15Hastings
16Lane
17AFB
Backups were Sipley,Perrett,Paseka,Brown,Fainu,J.Lussick,Winterstein,Gosiewski,Croker,Cust,Parker,Wright x3,Funa,Schuster,Anderson. For me that is a good enough side and plenty of depth for any coach to be successful with.For reasons we all know and speculate on,players came and went before and during the season(some players like Uate regressed some...),but going into the season with that squad we should have made the top 8 easily and have been pushing for the top 4.We got screwed by the Pearce back out and then had to shed players to get compliant after being fined and penalised by the TPA fiasco.Poor decisions during the year by Barrett highlighted the problems...People argue that our backups are not that good,but looking at other teams squads for 2018,we had good enough talent/depth in my opinion....Green/Hastings would have solved our game management.

 

[Smokin Joe]

Agree to disagree on the depth. Those names you listed, a lot are still unproven in first grade and others shouldn't be playing first grade. But that's my opinion. And you could argue that if the depth was so great, why did we struggle so badly when we used them.... Anyway, we could go in circles.

If we weren't paying backended deals then we maybe could of afforded others...anyway, just hypotheticals now.

I'm excited to see how Elgey goes with DCE. He doesn't have to do too much to improve us in my opinion. Hoping he will share the game management load with DCE and it'll allow us to be more unpredictable.

Excited to see what a preseason of a defensive mindset will do to the squad.

Looking forward to Round 1.

No worries,the issue of depth is an interesting one,you look at the roosters and going into 2019 they have about 21 players who have actually played an NRL game(same as the sharks).They have stacked their starting side full of talent and gone for no names/talented rookies with potential as depth(this year it worked,next year we will see).Hard to get talented and experienced depth as they are an automatic target for other clubs or even union or ESL as no player really wants to be playing reggies.You sort of have to go with mainly journeyman who are looking for an opportunity or untried players with potential.If you don't stock your starters with talent and go for more depth then you potentially don't have as competitive a side.As for your opinion of our talent in 2018,yeah everyone views players differently,it is difficult to find more than a couple of people who agree on a top 17 let alone 30 man squad.Even the chosen ones the broncos are shedding players left and right to hold on to their talented rookie forwards,they will have a talented pack but very inexperienced...

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

When you have blokes tied up on backended deals, it limits your spending on other areas... Depth and fixing weaknesses.

I don't entirely understand all the criticism of back-ended deals.

Example - there seems to be an assumption that a player who signed a 3 year deal for 300, then 400, then 500 thousand, would have been just as happy to sign for 3 years at 300 thousand. Which simply wouldn't happen.

Sure, they may have been happy to sign for an even 400 each year - but that would mean we wouldn't have that extra 100 to get another player in the first year.

A club just needs to have someone who knows what they are doing to be totally on top of the forward planning. But for some reason some clubs like to employ people that can't count. Obviously it's a big problem if too many players have their big paying years at the same time. But with clear forward planning by someone who can actually count, I don't really see why those risks can't be minimised.

 

[Ranga]

For me, it's all about the players value for money.

Some backended deals are fantastic if you get a player for under market value and he reaches market value in the final year (of a backended contract)

Others are being paid way over their market value in their final year and this to me is the time to release and spend more wisely.

It would be an individual case by case thing but essentially it all comes down to what the player is worth and how much we are paying them in that year.

Do I think Taupau is worth $900k? No way.
Do I think Walker is worth $600k? No I don't.
They've reached the point where their salaries are more than their market value (taking into account Manlys situation also).
I'd be letting them go.

Just my opinion though. Each to their own.

But what happens where you have to pay some of their freight? So if Walker is on $600k a year but really he is a $400k a year player, another club would be willing to pay $400k a year for him. We would still have to pay $200k and we would be looking for a $400k a year replacement. Which is a walker equivalent in this hypothetical.

I don’t disagree with your sentiment and 100% agree that it is always about value for money, but offloading players on a backended deal only works if another club is willing to pick up close to 100% of the contract.

 

[Bearfax]

Selling off high cost players and downgrading just to ease salary cap issues, isnt the way to go in my opinion. Imagine if we had sold off Lyon or Brett Stewart or Watmough, just to relieve salary cap issues during their best years. Those players are paid big money for a reason. They win you games. Its already been shown in recent years that a collection of cheap also rans to relieve salary cap issues is a sure fire way to join the also rans at the bottom of the table.

 

[40 years an eagle]

I don’t disagree with your sentiment and 100% agree that it is always about value for money, but offloading players on a backended deal only works if another club is willing to pick up close to 100% of the contract.

I agree but in Dylan's case, if ne is on a backended contract his 2019 portion is way more than 600k...more like 700-800k as I believe he is on 600k/year.

I doubt any club would be taking him at that price and we certainly can't afford to be throwing away 200k or so.

He's not going anywhere until at least 2020.

 

[Bearfax]

I think we are under estimating Walker's and Taupau's value. I think other clubs would grab them if they could. 2017 Walker was outstanding, close to the best centre in the game. This past year Taupau has been easily Manly's best yard maker in the middle by far. In fact in many games, Manly's forwards really put in. But we had a dysfunctional backline that was unable to take advantage of the forwards efforts. Not surprising that Walker was not in the centre for most of the season.

 

[Ryan]

And that's what I was saying about taking into account Manlys situation.

By that I mean, is Taupau worth the same to every club? No, of course not. So if he has reached a point where he isn't worth what Manly require yet someone else would be willing to pick him up, let him go.

If we were struggling in the forwards department and needed a metre eater, by all means Marty should be retained.
But right now, AFB is better value and we have the likes of Paseka, Tangles, Sipley, Amone etc ready to step up and a replacement wouldn't be too much of an issue in my opinion.

PS - I think if Walker went on the Market, a few clubs (Parra just offered Hayne $500k) would be making similar offers. Freeing up that coin then goes to plugging holes and building depth.

So your bringing in Sipley and Amone, to go along with players like Waddell, Garrick, Parker and others?

Dear lord.

 

[Tragic Eagle]

I take comfort from the fact Des is at the helm! Chill and enjoy the journey!

 

[Smokin Joe]

I take comfort from the fact Des is at the helm! Chill and enjoy the journey!

This IS Manly supporters enjoying the journey................

 

[manly al]

Marty and Walker would [ i assume ] have some element of T P A "s in their Manly deals , even though there has apparently been some previous issues with them . So this may ease the pressure with any short term back ended arrangements for them . What could be of more concern is if the original contracts for D C E [ and possibly Jake and Tom ] have an adjustment clause [ or provision ] when the N R L cap allocation is raised [ as it has been recently from 7 . 3 mil or so to 9 . 4 mill ] This would then undoubtedly impact on Manly present cap situation . Not really interested in arguing the toss over the justification of this arrangement but unfortunately would have a negative outcome for present or future acquisition of players if some set salaries are adjusted proportionally upwards for the increased N R L cap allocation .

 

[Ryan]

If it means you can sign a marquee player to play alongside DCE in the halves and increase our depth pool...? Yes.

And not sure where I said you would play all of them at once....? I'm suggesting Taupau and Walkers money could be better used to improve our side that finished 15th.

So what do you do with Elgey too? Release him as well I suppose? Then, who on the market is available as a blue chip 5/8, that would come here to play with the Garrick, Waddell, Amone, Sipley, Parker and others?

What I'm saying, is it's much better to keep this quality talent, and build around THAT, not around the 2nd and 3rd tier players.

That's what Des.did last time. Slowly brought in absolute quality. Kite, Kennedy, Orford, Bell, Lyon were all acquisitions

 

[Woodsie]

@Batty and @Ryan there is sense to both your points .... my opinion is that as important as your 4/5 high price stars ... the real talent of putting your roster together is the choice of the 4/5 cheap work horses or up and coming stars to compliment them ....

Every team has there marque players .... the genius lies in the add ons ..... Jake, DCE, Kapow will do what they do, this year as they did last year .... it is what Waddell, Garrick, Elgey, GoJetSki, Suli and others do that will determine how our season goes .....