Jack de Belin court case

[Bearfax]

I'm afraid guys and gals its all conjecture at this stage. What actually happened may never be known.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

I'm afraid guys and gals its all conjecture at this stage. What actually happened may never be known.

The truth always lies somewhere in the middle

 

[Bearfax]

The truth always lies somewhere in the middle

I've always said that Mark. I check my stomach region, note its excessive development, and realise the truth of my eating pattern, does very much lie in the middle

 

[The better Robbo]

Because under law, if a person is intoxicated to a certain extent then their consent isn't actually consent if they are unable to process information as they normally would.

Well just about everyone one of us has been a victim in our lifetime then! How do we know how intoxicated she was? Again im not defending him but there's always a chance that she is not in fact a victim at all and if thats the case then De Bellin is in fact the victim. Taking morality out of it of course

 

[urulion]

Well just about everyone one of us has been a victim in our lifetime then! How do we know how intoxicated she was? Again im not defending him but there's always a chance that she is not in fact a victim at all and if thats the case then De Bellin is in fact the victim. Taking morality out of it of course

The problem that we have Robbo, is we have become a nation that we must be so politically correct, that it becomes difficult for anyone to even say what they think in fear or retribution. The reality is I have a 20 year old daughter and if she ever came home to me, or her mother, and this occurred I would be shattered, however, I would be asking her if we brought her up like that?

If you go alone to a hotel with two guys, I am sure that you're not thinking that it may be to play UNO. And even if you did think it was to play UNO, you have been told from about 5 years of age "Do not get into cars or go to strangers houses, especially on your own."

This young lady may not have had that up bringing, however, if we are to believe what the media stated, she seemed extremely confident on the dance floor and equally confident in the witness box "I'm allowed to be a 19 year old". So yes, I am suggesting, that in my opinion she may not be the victim that many of us may have believed at first.

I can only assume and in my opinion, being so confident and allegedly taken advantage of, you would not follow the perpetrator's back to a club after such a disgraceful event.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

f you go alone to a hotel with two guys, I am sure that you're not thinking that it may be to play UNO

In other words, if you go then expect the men will rape you. In other words, she did consent, so there was no rape.
Or am I misinterpreting your opinion?

 

[ManlyArmy]

The problem that we have Robbo, is we have become a nation that we must be so politically correct, that it becomes difficult for anyone to even say what they think in fear or retribution. The reality is I have a 20 year old daughter and if she ever came home to me, or her mother, and this occurred I would be shattered, however, I would be asking her if we brought her up like that?

If you go alone to a hotel with two guys, I am sure that you're not thinking that it may be to play UNO. And even if you did think it was to play UNO, you have been told from about 5 years of age "Do not get into cars or go to strangers houses, especially on your own."

This young lady may not have had that up bringing, however, if we are to believe what the media stated, she seemed extremely confident on the dance floor and equally confident in the witness box "I'm allowed to be a 19 year old". So yes, I am suggesting, that in my opinion she may not be the victim that many of us may have believed at first.

I can only assume and in my opinion, being so confident and allegedly taken advantage of, you would not follow the perpetrator's back to a club after such a disgraceful event.

So in your mind, a girl can't go to a room with two other guys because it basically means it will always be for something sexual....

Wonderful opinion mate. Enjoy telling your daughter that when a time comes that she's in a room with guys, it will mean that something sexual will happen and she can't just simply go there to grab a drink, use the loo etc.

 

[manlyfan76]

So many opinions and so little fact.
Do we know what the young girls IQ is? Is she able to make decisions competently? Was she impared by drinking? Did she think that she was safe because Jack was marrried with a pregnant wife at home?
As i read it, it was Jack who divererted the tuktuk not the girl. Once it was diverted to "charge a phone" ( not a disputed fact) did she still feel safe? Did being in an apartment with two brawny guys intimidate her, possibly in an anebriated state?
Did the co-accused know she was impared and take advantage? - Barging into the bathroom to take a shower while the "phone charged"?

Why would anyone pay a willing participant money to shut up? Chewbacca defence? It doesn't make sense.
If so innocent why would one of the co-accused use a friends facebook to contact the girl? Why did he feel the need for deception? OR to cover his tracks?

And to those using your personal, previous experience to judge this situation: you are part of the problem.

 

[yokahontas]

The problem that we have Robbo, is we have become a nation that we must be so politically correct, that it becomes difficult for anyone to even say what they think in fear or retribution. The reality is I have a 20 year old daughter and if she ever came home to me, or her mother, and this occurred I would be shattered, however, I would be asking her if we brought her up like that?

If you go alone to a hotel with two guys, I am sure that you're not thinking that it may be to play UNO. And even if you did think it was to play UNO, you have been told from about 5 years of age "Do not get into cars or go to strangers houses, especially on your own."

This young lady may not have had that up bringing, however, if we are to believe what the media stated, she seemed extremely confident on the dance floor and equally confident in the witness box "I'm allowed to be a 19 year old". So yes, I am suggesting, that in my opinion she may not be the victim that many of us may have believed at first.

I can only assume and in my opinion, being so confident and allegedly taken advantage of, you would not follow the perpetrator's back to a club after such a disgraceful event.

It wasn’t a hotel, it was a private apartment - that de Belin apparently diverted the tuk tuk to. When they got in, the understanding was that it was to go to another club.

And on that point as well - I was also taught not to get into strangers’ cars, with one very important and very relevant exception - a taxi or other form of public transport. Which is exactly the type of conveyance used in this case - a tuk tuk, and then an Uber.

 

[urulion]

In other words, if you go then expect the men will rape you. In other words, she did consent, so there was no rape.
Or am I misinterpreting your opinion?

Hahahaha where have I suggested that if she went she should expect the men to rape her?

However, in my opinion, by reading what has come out thus far in cross-examination, and reflecting how previous judgements may have looked at consent, and applied consent. I do believe there may be enough to exonerate JDB from rape and that she did consent and there was no rape YES.

However, it would be a misrepresentation to suggest that because I have an opinion that the alleged victim may have consented, that does not mean for her to expect to be raped by going with two men to a unit (as alleged of course).

 

[urulion]

So in your mind, a girl can't go to a room with two other guys because it basically means it will always be for something sexual....

Wonderful opinion mate. Enjoy telling your daughter that when a time comes that she's in a room with guys, it will mean that something sexual will happen and she can't just simply go there to grab a drink, use the loo etc.

Mate, you raise your kids how you like that is entirely up to you... I, on the other hand, I only have one daughter and if she needs a drink or go to the loo plenty of other places to go. If you must go to the apartment for some unkown reason, just don't go alone. Way to many sick people these days and prefer my daughter to not have trust rather than end up dead... but all parents are different I suppose.

 

[urulion]

It wasn’t a hotel, it was a private apartment - that de Belin apparently diverted the tuk tuk to. When they got in, the understanding was that it was to go to another club.

And on that point as well - I was also taught not to get into strangers’ cars, with one very important and very relevant exception - a taxi or other form of public transport. Which is exactly the type of conveyance used in this case - a tuk tuk, and then an Uber.

Yes you are correct Yokahontas it was a private apartment and not a hotel as I stated. Amazing how she has such a sharp memory about the diversion of the tuk tuk but has very limited memory in other very important areas that occurred that night.

Further, you may well have been taught about taxis, and public transport, however, I highly doubt that any lay/reasonable person, would believe a complaint and allegation of sexual assault, when that alleged distressed person (victim), follows the offenders back to a club in a way that was deemed laughing and smiling as per vision of CCTV.

 

[wombatgc]

I reckon my memory would become crystal clear if two d#cks were taking turns on me.

Gulp.

So many come backs Bob, but alas, so many suspensions!

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

she seemed extremely confident on the dance floor and equally confident in the witness box "I'm allowed to be a 19 year old". So yes, I am suggesting, that in my opinion she may not be the victim that many of us may have believed at first.

I don't get your reasoning here urulion? I'm sure you aren't suggesting women should just stay safely at home?

 

[Bearfax]

I don't get your reasoning here urulion? I'm sure you aren't suggesting women should just stay safely at home?

You're right SER8. It shouldn't be that way for women, but realistically it is. And just as its best to avoid a surly bloke having had too much libation, its wise for a woman to avoid situations that could place her at risk. There are soulless predators. Shouldn't be that way but it is. If I had a daughter I would be certainly warning her of such dangers.

 

[yokahontas]

Yes you are correct Yokahontas it was a private apartment and not a hotel as I stated. Amazing how she has such a sharp memory about the diversion of the tuk tuk but has very limited memory in other very important areas that occurred that night.

Further, you may well have been taught about taxis, and public transport, however, I highly doubt that any lay/reasonable person, would believe a complaint and allegation of sexual assault, when that alleged distressed person (victim), follows the offenders back to a club in a way that was deemed laughing and smiling as per vision of CCTV.

As I already pointed out, along with several other posters, it’s highly likely this young lady goes out dancing/drinking/clubbing very often, and would have no reason to remember those details vividly. Hell, at 19 my friends and I were out at drinking establishments at least once a week, every week. Nothing would’ve stood out about any of those occasions unless something unusual happened. Even 20 years later, only a few things stand out for exactly that reason - they were out of the ordinary (nothing like what this girl allegedly went through, thankfully).

And again, you can’t judge her behaviour after the fact either without knowing all the circumstances. Even the fact she’d been taken to a private residence may have affected it - did she even know where she was, and how to get home or back to a safe place from there? Playing along and getting an Uber back to somewhere she was familiar with may have been her safest option. It wouldn’t be the first time someone has ‘played nice’ after a rape in an attempt to ensure their own safety.

You’re judging a 19 year old girl pretty severely for someone who’s never actually been one.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

And just as its best to avoid a surly bloke having had too much libation, i

Sure but we're not always able to avoid that surly drunk bloke (especially if they live with us) but either way doesn't mean you're consenting to getting assaulted.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

There are soulless predators.

This is not a problem about monsters and soulless predators. 90% of sexual assaults are committed by people the victim knows, not by strangers. The problem is the mindset that allows sexual intercourse without consent by propagating the idea that if you've given a man any excuse to think you may be interested in having sex then you can't expect that man to understand the word 'no'. She was out drinking at night, she got in a cab, she had a short dress, she gave him a look. Great. May as well just say she wasn't dressed as a nun so she probably consented!

 

[manly al]

Judge obviously thought that there was a strong enough case for the trial to proceed but may come down to the complicated issue of some initial consent , then non consent during the alleged incident as others have alluded to Even allowing for a bit inconsistency and the apparent free and easy nature of the evening , the young lady still had her basic rights and wishes to be respected at any set time . . Hopefully the jury will have the best available facts and indications to base their verdict on and make the right call .

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

Judge obviously thought that there was a strong enough case for the trial to proceed but may come down to the complicated issue of some initial consent , then non consent during the alleged incident as others have alluded to Even allowing for a bit inconsistency and the apparent free and easy nature of the evening , the young lady still had her basic rights and wishes to be respected at any set time . . Hopefully the jury will have the best available facts and indications to base their verdict on and make the right call .

Agree but do not forget , when you are sitting on the jury you have to be 100% sure that the defendant is right because if you are only 60% sure she is then that’s reasonable doubt.

Having sat on one of these ( albeit 21 years ago ) it’s not an easy job.

The judge at the end of our case was very strong on the words “ beyond reasonable doubt”.....and that played on my mind for the two days we were locked up!!