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Seagles68

Bencher
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Therin lies the issue , who chooses.

The government??
Those who make the most noise ??

No I don’t have the right to speak for them, but I can comment on my life experiences which is probably more than many ( not all ) on here.

We all agree that we have to move forward , but as I’ve stated I really believe it has to start with themselves. The voice needs to be about “ how do we fix the issues “ not “ we own the land so pay is rent “ or “ we want reparations for you stealing our land “ or the like.

It has to start with the elders , they need to be granted tribal justice to deal with their internal issues.

It shouldn’t be about money.

It shouldn’t be about white fellas doing what they think is best.

If it’s just the radical loud noise people chosen , absolutely nothing will be achieved.

I think I’ve said enough now , I’ll make this my last post.
:trumpet: Here ya go Mark. @:D
 

manlyfan76

There is no A.I. Just better computers
You do not seem to be allowing for degree.. it’s becoming a circular discussion
Is your Red pill name meant to be ironic?
You do realise that the pill choice in the matrix was not actually a choice
- if that is what you were referencing
 

Eagles4Life

Bencher
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Hey mate,
I believe I have responded to this.
I think if this question has serious utility in our group exchange of opinions it needs to be specifically framed at a poster who is of the opinion that under no circumstance whatsoever!!they would consider this as an option in some way … from I have read most of the debate is around the conditions they would need to have clarified or in place etc to accept this.
It does not appear fair to me that you are now directing this at everyone in this way. Please let me know if I am somehow misunderstanding the situation or your intent?
Also out of sheer interest I would like to understand the current US model in place?
Cheers RP..

Thanks @Red Pill but you have the wrong interpretation of my intent in relation to the question.

First of all it is a genuine question on my part.

Secondly, it speaks directly to the heart of the discussion that we are engaging in right now. The proposed referendum is about constitutional recognition of First Nations peoples in our constitution. The Voice to Parliament is the proposed mechanism to enable First Nations people to have a greater say on issues that affect them directly.

In my opinion the utility of the question in the group is fundamental to any further discussion on this topic. Australia is the only Commonwealth country that doesnt provide for constitutional recognition of its First Nations peoples. Australia is the only First-World country (with a colonial history) that didn't have treaties in place with its First Nations peoples, at its inception.

As a group are we happy to perpetuate this situation into the future i.e No constitutional recognition for our First Nations peoples, or are we prepared to vote in the affirmative for this to be enshrined into our constitution.

To me its as simple as that, and understanding the implications of the question, is key to moving forward as a united nation.
 

Seagles68

Bencher
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Thanks @Red Pill but you have the wrong interpretation of my intent in relation to the question.

First of all it is a genuine question on my part.

Secondly, it speaks directly to the heart of the discussion that we are engaging in right now. The proposed referendum is about constitutional recognition of First Nations peoples in our constitution. The Voice to Parliament is the proposed mechanism to enable First Nations people to have a greater say on issues that affect them directly.

In my opinion the utility of the question in the group is fundamental to any further discussion on this topic. Australia is the only Commonwealth country that doesnt provide for constitutional recognition of its First Nations peoples. Australia is the only First-World country (with a colonial history) that didn't have treaties in place with its First Nations peoples, at its inception.

As a group are we happy to perpetuate this situation into the future i.e No constitutional recognition for our First Nations peoples, or are we prepared to vote in the affirmative for this to be enshrined into our constitution.

To me its as simple as that, and understanding the implications of the question, is key to moving forward as a united nation.
Hey - I've just realised I misread your question. For whatever reason, I thought you were asking about why we didn't have a Treaty. Sorry about that. Having said that though, the BBC article may well cover off the answer (to some degree) as to why indigenous people are not recognised in the Constitution. What do you think?
 

SeaEagleRock8

Sea Eagle Lach
Premium Member
Tipping Member
We clearly see this differently. I don’t see the utility in answering your question which you are framing from your perspective.. I think we just agree to disagree and move on. I don’t see an exchange of opinion as one person constantly having to answer the other’s questions like some legal examination of sorts
Well I think you’ve answered my question, in that the players did have a choice albeit a very uncomfortable and difficult one.

So to your question: “would you try to force a Muslim to break away from ramandan ?” No.
 

Red Pill

Enthusiastic Amateur
Thanks @Red Pill but you have the wrong interpretation of my intent in relation to the question.

First of all it is a genuine question on my part.

Secondly, it speaks directly to the heart of the discussion that we are engaging in right now. The proposed referendum is about constitutional recognition of First Nations peoples in our constitution. The Voice to Parliament is the proposed mechanism to enable First Nations people to have a greater say on issues that affect them directly.

In my opinion the utility of the question in the group is fundamental to any further discussion on this topic. Australia is the only Commonwealth country that doesnt provide for constitutional recognition of its First Nations peoples. Australia is the only First-World country (with a colonial history) that didn't have treaties in place with its First Nations peoples, at its inception.

As a group are we happy to perpetuate this situation into the future i.e No constitutional recognition for our First Nations peoples, or are we prepared to vote in the affirmative for this to be enshrined into our constitution.

To me its as simple as that, and understanding the implications of the question, is key to moving forward as a united nation.
Thanks for the clarification.
I think we can agree that we would like to see better outcomes for Indigenous Australia. Ideally constitutional recognition is one way of achieving this as long as imo it is for the right reasons, not an excuse for a influential radical minority to access money and disproportionate power which will not really help the plight of the ordinary individual nor the rest of Australia…Some may argue I am not qualified to hold such an opinion and they are entitled to this view, but at the end of the day we all get to vote…..looking to future cast so to speak can be helpful in discerning this….
 
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Eagles4Life

Bencher
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Hey - I've just realised I misread your question. For whatever reason, I thought you were asking about why we didn't have a Treaty. Sorry about that. Having said that though, the BBC article may well cover off the answer (to some degree) as to why indigenous people are not recognised in the Constitution. What do you think?
Thanks for the link @Seagles68 It gives some good background on the historical circumstances that have led to our First Nations peoples not being given any constitutional recognition up to now. It also reinforces that this recognition is far overdue, and in comparison to other First-World countries with a colonial history, just how far behind we are in providing it.
 
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Mark from Brisbane

“ Boomer still Booming”
Premium Member
Tipping Member
This is not mine but it is an opinion piece and is largely what I have been trying at articulate ( but doing a poor job ).

Cairns News

‘Voice’ is a $235 million reincarnation of the corrupt ATSIC bureaucracy – ‘…a sick federal government…’

Editor, cairns news

Jan 11

THE GOVERNMENT HAS SET ASIDE $235 MILLION FOR THE VOICE REFERENDUM.

For political ideology that serves no beneficial purpose to the 3.2% of aborigines or to the 86.8% majority of people.

It will not solve any of the problems in aboriginal communities or of many aboriginals in cities of total disrespect for people’s property, theft and violence — it will do absolutely nothing to reduce the terrible violence in aboriginal communities, the rape of women and children, the terrible domestic violence, the bashings, robberies, and murder — the health problems from poor lifestyle, bad diet, substance abuse, alcohol, unemployment, education and failing to learn decent family and community values with respect for rules and law in their community.

It is the re-birthing of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission (ATSIC) (1990–2005) was the Australian Government body through which Aboriginal Australians and Torres Strait Islanders were formally involved in the processes of government affecting their lives, established under the Hawke government in 1990. It was an expensive disaster that failed hopelessly, it appears its only success was making some members very wealthy? It was disbanded as a useless disastrous waste of resources and money.

‘The Voice’ is almost identical to the failed Labor Party theoretical ideological program ATSIC that was going to solve all these aboriginal problems, after 15 years of wasting of millions and total failure it was disbanded. Here we go again with a repeat re-run of ATSIC: The ALP Hawke government gave us great eloquent assurances and guarantees of what a great system and benefit it would be — sound very familiar. It was disbanded as a total failure, now the blinkered ALP Ideology want to waste our monies once again on a re-emergence of the previous failed disaster.

The Voice: Would just be a bigger and more authoritarian powerful version of the already totally failed, discredited, useless and defunct ATSIC. Only this time when it totally stuffs-up with massive waste of public funds and rorts, you cannot get rid of it as it is locked into the constitution.

There is always plenty of time to regret bad decisions.

NOW they want to establish the same instrument into the constitution, where in a few years of likely repeated uselessness, and massive waste of resources and millions of dollars — They will be stuck with it forever — Unless they have another $235 million-dollar referendum to remove it.

Better to learn from history and reject the referendum — Interesting how history repeats itself, unless you work hard to prevent it.

When in doubt — don’t.

Vote in haste and regret at leisure — while billions of your money is being wasted creating dictatorial structures and land claims at 62.7% of the total lands mass are swallowing Australia.

This $235 million expenditure is a total unnecessary waste of your taxpayer’s money that would serve more people and be better spent on hospitals to solve the crisis of ambulances ramping at hospitals across Australia that are causing unnecessary deaths where people die because they cannot get an ambulance waiting many hours and die before it arrives

It is a very sick government who would sooner waste limited monies on political ideology than on saving people’s lives.

Remember the only difference between a wise man and a fool, is the wise man learns from his mistakes — the fools repeat them like this re-establishment of ATSIC under a different title locked into the constitution.

Granting an unequal and undemocratic voice that gives additional access to government of one group over another always accelerates into authoritarian rule — look at the history of communism in every country — that is how it started.

Do not let it start here.

‘IF’ the Voice is passed — A new huge government department will be created with a permanent secretary, undersecretary, and myriad of highly paid staff, researchers, accountants, legal advisers — who in turn will do the usual bureaucratic procedure of calling in very expensive experts costing million, to cover for their lack of knowledge, showing they should not have been appointed in the first place — they will then establish department offices across Australia, with duplicated senior staff and support services costing many millions.

It is a sure thing the staff will not be tertiary qualified aboriginal people with black skin and 65% aboriginal DNA, who are being displaced by the dominant white indigenous invaders of predominant European DNA like Captain James Cook. They need to remember if it were not for Captain Cook and the first fleet — They would not be here.

Once embedded in the Constitution, such an internal ‘sovereign nation’ will be impossible to dismantle, this is the threat and the message all Australians must hear.

It will not be able to disbanded for incompetence and waste of millions of your taxpayer’s monies and resources like ATSIC.

You will be stuck with a parasitic organization dragging millions away from your family’s urgent health and education needs — Lack of adequate medical services and hospital construction is already 20 years behind the community needs basis with more migrants arriving.

Repetitive government funding failures has produced the disgraceful Ambulance ramping where lines of Ambulances are outside hospital emergency departments with patients waiting up to eight hours for medical attention and admission, regularly costing lives caused by the current chronic shortage of health funding and incompetent management by governments.

The needless cost of $235 million for the referendum would be better spent on Hospital construction for ‘ALL THE PEOPLE’ not just the benefit of a few — The many millions to set up bureaucratic departments for one group of 3.2% of people — would be better spent on the urgent need for more new hospitals that will serve everyone.

Editor: From what we have learned after years of research and association with Aboriginal people the elitists want every white Australian to pay them property rent forevermore. This is why state Labor governments have surreptitiously removed all parchment land deeds without a peep from the LNP. Please not the Secretary of Queensland State Cabinet when it was decided to remove all parchment deeds was none other than Kevin Rudd. Homeowners no longer have a secure title and the electronic title can easily be transferred to the burgeoning Aboriginal estate without landowner's knowledge. In fact we could be too late.
 

Eagle 1

First Grader
This is not mine but it is an opinion piece and is largely what I have been trying at articulate ( but doing a poor job ).

Cairns News

‘Voice’ is a $235 million reincarnation of the corrupt ATSIC bureaucracy – ‘…a sick federal government…’

Editor, cairns news

Jan 11

THE GOVERNMENT HAS SET ASIDE $235 MILLION FOR THE VOICE REFERENDUM.

For political ideology that serves no beneficial purpose to the 3.2% of aborigines or to the 86.8% majority of people.

It will not solve any of the problems in aboriginal communities or of many aboriginals in cities of total disrespect for people’s property, theft and violence — it will do absolutely nothing to reduce the terrible violence in aboriginal communities, the rape of women and children, the terrible domestic violence, the bashings, robberies, and murder — the health problems from poor lifestyle, bad diet, substance abuse, alcohol, unemployment, education and failing to learn decent family and community values with respect for rules and law in their community.

It is the re-birthing of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission (ATSIC) (1990–2005) was the Australian Government body through which Aboriginal Australians and Torres Strait Islanders were formally involved in the processes of government affecting their lives, established under the Hawke government in 1990. It was an expensive disaster that failed hopelessly, it appears its only success was making some members very wealthy? It was disbanded as a useless disastrous waste of resources and money.

‘The Voice’ is almost identical to the failed Labor Party theoretical ideological program ATSIC that was going to solve all these aboriginal problems, after 15 years of wasting of millions and total failure it was disbanded. Here we go again with a repeat re-run of ATSIC: The ALP Hawke government gave us great eloquent assurances and guarantees of what a great system and benefit it would be — sound very familiar. It was disbanded as a total failure, now the blinkered ALP Ideology want to waste our monies once again on a re-emergence of the previous failed disaster.

The Voice: Would just be a bigger and more authoritarian powerful version of the already totally failed, discredited, useless and defunct ATSIC. Only this time when it totally stuffs-up with massive waste of public funds and rorts, you cannot get rid of it as it is locked into the constitution.

There is always plenty of time to regret bad decisions.

NOW they want to establish the same instrument into the constitution, where in a few years of likely repeated uselessness, and massive waste of resources and millions of dollars — They will be stuck with it forever — Unless they have another $235 million-dollar referendum to remove it.

Better to learn from history and reject the referendum — Interesting how history repeats itself, unless you work hard to prevent it.

When in doubt — don’t.

Vote in haste and regret at leisure — while billions of your money is being wasted creating dictatorial structures and land claims at 62.7% of the total lands mass are swallowing Australia.

This $235 million expenditure is a total unnecessary waste of your taxpayer’s money that would serve more people and be better spent on hospitals to solve the crisis of ambulances ramping at hospitals across Australia that are causing unnecessary deaths where people die because they cannot get an ambulance waiting many hours and die before it arrives

It is a very sick government who would sooner waste limited monies on political ideology than on saving people’s lives.

Remember the only difference between a wise man and a fool, is the wise man learns from his mistakes — the fools repeat them like this re-establishment of ATSIC under a different title locked into the constitution.

Granting an unequal and undemocratic voice that gives additional access to government of one group over another always accelerates into authoritarian rule — look at the history of communism in every country — that is how it started.

Do not let it start here.

‘IF’ the Voice is passed — A new huge government department will be created with a permanent secretary, undersecretary, and myriad of highly paid staff, researchers, accountants, legal advisers — who in turn will do the usual bureaucratic procedure of calling in very expensive experts costing million, to cover for their lack of knowledge, showing they should not have been appointed in the first place — they will then establish department offices across Australia, with duplicated senior staff and support services costing many millions.

It is a sure thing the staff will not be tertiary qualified aboriginal people with black skin and 65% aboriginal DNA, who are being displaced by the dominant white indigenous invaders of predominant European DNA like Captain James Cook. They need to remember if it were not for Captain Cook and the first fleet — They would not be here.

Once embedded in the Constitution, such an internal ‘sovereign nation’ will be impossible to dismantle, this is the threat and the message all Australians must hear.

It will not be able to disbanded for incompetence and waste of millions of your taxpayer’s monies and resources like ATSIC.

You will be stuck with a parasitic organization dragging millions away from your family’s urgent health and education needs — Lack of adequate medical services and hospital construction is already 20 years behind the community needs basis with more migrants arriving.

Repetitive government funding failures has produced the disgraceful Ambulance ramping where lines of Ambulances are outside hospital emergency departments with patients waiting up to eight hours for medical attention and admission, regularly costing lives caused by the current chronic shortage of health funding and incompetent management by governments.

The needless cost of $235 million for the referendum would be better spent on Hospital construction for ‘ALL THE PEOPLE’ not just the benefit of a few — The many millions to set up bureaucratic departments for one group of 3.2% of people — would be better spent on the urgent need for more new hospitals that will serve everyone.

Editor: From what we have learned after years of research and association with Aboriginal people the elitists want every white Australian to pay them property rent forevermore. This is why state Labor governments have surreptitiously removed all parchment land deeds without a peep from the LNP. Please not the Secretary of Queensland State Cabinet when it was decided to remove all parchment deeds was none other than Kevin Rudd. Homeowners no longer have a secure title and the electronic title can easily be transferred to the burgeoning Aboriginal estate without landowner's knowledge. In fact we could be too late.
The Editor of the Cairns News just NAILED every point...well said.
 

Mark from Brisbane

“ Boomer still Booming”
Premium Member
Tipping Member
The Editor of the Cairns News just NAILED every point...well said.
Yes he or she certainly did.

A vote YES is much more than “ being the right thing to do “.

It’s what I’ve been banging on about on here , it’ll end up just being another super expensive government “ think tank “ with mostly the wrong people in the job improving absolutely nothing for indigenous people.

I watched an interview on ABC 24 this morning , a social commentator in Alice Spring, and he said in reality it wasn’t the government, the police or the do gooders that could change anything there , it had to start with the locals , the elders , and allowing them to introduce “ Tribal Justice” , ah , hello isn’t that what I’ve been saying !!
 

manly al

First Grader
Think that any Treaty consideration at a federal level would be more the proposal to be quite cautions about if it ever did come into calculations . Quite a few more implications there . Anyway much will depend on the final make up of any Voice proposal to influence a lot of public view one way or another Until then it is probably just a matter of speculation and really can not be intrinsically judged one way or another unless the concept is enough to gain support regardless . Unless also , people just want to reject it outright before any actual detail and that is their right also of course
 

Eagle 1

First Grader
Yes he or she certainly did.

A vote YES is much more than “ being the right thing to do “.

It’s what I’ve been banging on about on here , it’ll end up just being another super expensive government “ think tank “ with mostly the wrong people in the job improving absolutely nothing for indigenous people.

I watched an interview on ABC 24 this morning , a social commentator in Alice Spring, and he said in reality it wasn’t the government, the police or the do gooders that could change anything there , it had to start with the locals , the elders , and allowing them to introduce “ Tribal Justice” , ah , hello isn’t that what I’ve been saying !!
What gets me is, we, our new Government throws about 230m at the problem and we all go, isn't that great the Aboriginal problem could be fixed now. But deep down you know it wont fix anything, and we'll just go along for a few more years until the next big idea.
 

SeaEagleRock8

Sea Eagle Lach
Premium Member
Tipping Member
This is not mine but it is an opinion piece


The Editor of the Cairns News just NAILED every point...well said.

Lol this publication openly endorses hate and disgusting conspiracy theories such as put out by the likes of Alex Jones!!!

I'm sure it's articles are filled with the real truth, and no doubt balanced and sane too.

CONTRIBUTORS​

Cairns News reserves the right to edit material from our numerous contributors in Australia and international correspondents. We are receiving so much copy from contributing writers that we cannot promise to read all of it. This is, so far, an ad-free community media service where all correspondents provide copy in an honorary capacity. We thank our contributors, some of whom are disillusioned reporters for mainstream media. They realise the editorial panels of the major media have become propaganda machines for vested interests and seldom publish unbiased ‘news’ particularly since the US television network CNN broadcast many false news items about President Trump and the Sandy Hook training exercise.
Trump now prohibits these lying networks and some print media from attending his media conferences. Thank you for those White House bulletins that actually present the truth.
Contributors please accept our thanks for your articles and keep publishing them. Harry Palmer contributing editor.
 

Mark from Brisbane

“ Boomer still Booming”
Premium Member
Tipping Member

Lol this publication openly endorses hate and disgusting conspiracy theories such as put out by the likes of Alex Jones!!!

I'm sure it's articles are filled with the real truth, and no doubt balanced and sane too.

CONTRIBUTORS​

Cairns News reserves the right to edit material from our numerous contributors in Australia and international correspondents. We are receiving so much copy from contributing writers that we cannot promise to read all of it. This is, so far, an ad-free community media service where all correspondents provide copy in an honorary capacity. We thank our contributors, some of whom are disillusioned reporters for mainstream media. They realise the editorial panels of the major media have become propaganda machines for vested interests and seldom publish unbiased ‘news’ particularly since the US television network CNN broadcast many false news items about President Trump and the Sandy Hook training exercise.
Trump now prohibits these lying networks and some print media from attending his media conferences. Thank you for those White House bulletins that actually present the truth.
Contributors please accept our thanks for your articles and keep publishing them. Harry Palmer contributing editor.
So because the Editors opinion is different to yours it’s “ hate speech “.

Ok
 
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SeaEagleRock8

Sea Eagle Lach
Premium Member
Tipping Member
So because the Editors opinion is different to yours it’s “ hate speech “.

Ok
I didn't say the article you posted was hate speech, I didn't read it. First I looked up who published it. Did you read their blurb that I posted?
"Sandy Hook training exercise"

Don't worry I've read all your posts on the topic but, I won't read anything published on a conspiracy site like that.
 

Mark from Brisbane

“ Boomer still Booming”
Premium Member
Tipping Member
I didn't say the article you posted was hate speech, I didn't read it. First I looked up who published it. Did you read their blurb that I posted?
"Sandy Hook training exercise"

Don't worry I've read all your posts on the topic but, I won't read anything published on a conspiracy site like that.
Fair enough

But much of it mirrors my opinions, not all I know , I have huge empathy for aboriginal people and their woes which I’m not sure the Editor does.

But we both agree that another government department isn’t the answer.

If the Voice was an annual think tank held with the Government cabinet , the opposition cabinet , and both the shadow and minister for aboriginal affairs and REAL aboriginal people from small communities and large towns / cities that have a predominantly aboriginal population it might work.

Not radicals , not activists , not lobbyists but real local elders and community minded aboriginal citizens.

They exist , everywhere , but rarely do they ever get any attention.

I’m not against trying to fix the issue , just the establishment of another doomed for failure / achieve nothing organisation like ATSIC ( a previous Labor debacle ).

And that my friend is what I think a YES vote is going to deliver.
 

Seagles68

Bencher
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Fair enough

But much of it mirrors my opinions, not all I know , I have huge empathy for aboriginal people and their woes which I’m not sure the Editor does.

But we both agree that another government department isn’t the answer.

If the Voice was an annual think tank held with the Government cabinet , the opposition cabinet , and both the shadow and minister for aboriginal affairs and REAL aboriginal people from small communities and large towns / cities that have a predominantly aboriginal population it might work.

Not radicals , not activists , not lobbyists but real local elders and community minded aboriginal citizens.

They exist , everywhere , but rarely do they ever get any attention.

I’m not against trying to fix the issue , just the establishment of another doomed for failure / achieve nothing organisation like ATSIC ( a previous Labor debacle ).

And that my friend is what I think a YES vote is going to deliver.
It does seem a bit odd to me though Mark, that all I'm hearing from those in the media that are clearly against it (under any circumstances in my opinion) is how there is no information about what it will be, how it will work, who will be on it, Albanese is treating the Australian people like mugs etc etc and yet there are people like this chap that seems to know even the finest detail and how catastrophic it will be. A fine example of .... huh??
 

Mark from Brisbane

“ Boomer still Booming”
Premium Member
Tipping Member
It does seem a bit odd to me though Mark, that all I'm hearing from those in the media that are clearly against it (under any circumstances in my opinion) is how there is no information about what it will be, how it will work, who will be on it, Albanese is treating the Australian people like mugs etc etc and yet there are people like this chap that seems to know even the finest detail and how catastrophic it will be. A fine example of .... huh??
Much would be conjecture.

I’ve been saying all along , I’m currently voting NO , but if they inform me exactly how it might look I could change.

But I sure ain’t voting yes just because “ it’s the vibe “.
 
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