[Resurrected] Gordon Chan Kum Tong

[Ryan]

Can we stop with the Croker is a half playing hooker. Players evolve, Croker is a hooker playing hooker.

He has played only 15 of his 106 games at 5/8. His last 70 odd games all hooker.

Its like saying Isaah Yeo is a centre playing lock or Jarome Hughes is a fullback playing halfback

Here's a question for you - take out his games at halfback or five-eight. In his role at Hooker only, what is his winning percentage in both finals (the rare finals he's played), and season proper games?

When you provide the answer, can you then again (referring to that figure) justify his success at Hooker (noting Hooker is a primary position on the field).

Here's something for you. In 2018 he played 8 games for us, 2019 4 games. He's really played four FULL seasons for us, and all at Hooker, and we've finished:
2020: finished 13th (no finals)
2021: finished 4th (one loss, one win in the finals)
2022: finished 11th (no finals)
2023: finished 12th (no finals)

Are we insistent on doing the same thing, and hoping for something different?

 

[double hoops]

He's a young bloke on the up. He is a little fella. Which has its advantages in attack. But it's disadvantages in defence when the blokes running at you these days are giants. What is already clear, if Jackie dosen't make it in the NRL, it won't have been on account of a lack of heart.

 

[TheSoaringEagle2023]

He's a young bloke on the up. He is a little fella. Which has its advantages in attack. But it's disadvantages in defence when the blokes running at you these days are giants. What is already clear, if Jackie dosen't make it in the NRL, it won't have been on account of a lack of heart.

If Manly don't want him, some other club will pick him up. A club like the eels need that dynamite hooker since Mahoney, and he would not look out of place there. He would have an easier gig there due to the amount of big boppers they have and the ease they get from getting a roll on.

 

[master blaster]

If Manly don't want him, some other club will pick him up. A club like the eels need that dynamite hooker since Mahoney, and he would not look out of place there. He would have an easier gig there due to the amount of big boppers they have and the ease they get from getting a roll on.

Yeah, we will probably let him go and Caleb as well like the other young juniors that we let go, The Fainu brothers and the other 2 we let go and use the good old salary cap excuse again. If they do ,then it will probably be it for me. Im sick to death of hearing the continual salary cap excuse. They are juniors, we should be developing them for the future

 

[Disco]

Here's a question for you - take out his games at halfback or five-eight. In his role at Hooker only, what is his winning percentage in both finals (the rare finals he's played), and season proper games?

When you provide the answer, can you then again (referring to that figure) justify his success at Hooker (noting Hooker is a primary position on the field).

Here's something for you. In 2018 he played 8 games for us, 2019 4 games. He's really played four FULL seasons for us, and all at Hooker, and we've finished:
2020: finished 13th (no finals)
2021: finished 4th (one loss, one win in the finals)
2022: finished 11th (no finals)
2023: finished 12th (no finals)

Are we insistent on doing the same thing, and hoping for something different?

We are in the same side of the argument in terms of how we rate Croker as a hooker. I think he is adequate but an area we should be looking to get more out of. Hopefully Gordie can come if the bench and offer more in tandem with Croker otherwise we should look to market.

I just think the playing out of position troupe is a flawed argument. Croker is now a hooker and whatever you think of him as hooker he remains a better hooker than 5/8 IMO.

Side note, Croker has never started halfback in firsts.

 

[TheSoaringEagle2023]

We are in the same side of the argument in terms of how we rate Croker as a hooker. I think he is adequate but an area we should be looking to get more out of. Hopefully Gordie can come if the bench and offer more in tandem with Croker otherwise we should look to market.

I just think the playing out of position troupe is a flawed argument. Croker is now a hooker and whatever you think of him as hooker he remains a better hooker than 5/8 IMO.

Side note, Croker has never started halfback in firsts.

He's a better hooker than 5/8 but he's not in the top 10 hookers in the comp and it's been that way for quite some time. Other hookers such as the Brayley brothers, Wade Egan, Billy Walters, Reece Robson, Mitch Kenny have all seem to have improved remarkably over a short period of time.

 

[Ryan]

We are in the same side of the argument in terms of how we rate Croker as a hooker. I think he is adequate but an area we should be looking to get more out of. Hopefully Gordie can come if the bench and offer more in tandem with Croker otherwise we should look to market.

I just think the playing out of position troupe is a flawed argument. Croker is now a hooker and whatever you think of him as hooker he remains a better hooker than 5/8 IMO.

Side note, Croker has never started halfback in firsts.

Understand where you're coming from, but here's my take. When we were going through our original rebuild in say 2005, people were devastated to lose players like Chris Hicks. There were petitions to keep Michael Monaghan. Kinda fan favorites that people rated. BUT, we started achieving when these guys were replaced by guys like Ballin, Lyon, Bell, Orford and others.

We have been dog**** for 10 years now. There's no room for sentiments here. We can't afford to have adequate or even decent players if we are to improve.

We may just have to let some favorites go (like we did in the past ) to progress IF there are better options.

Our recruitment is shambolic. We need to go for quality over quantity, not quantity over quality. We've done the latter for 10 years now, and we've literally gone nowhere.

The time for excuses, accepting just decent or okay as being fine is gone. We are literally the laughing stock of the NRL. Opposition fans literally bag our performance and ability and rightly so.

For me, that's why guys like Waddell, Brown, Condon, Talau, Johns, Matterson, Woods, Croker, Tuilagi, Boyle are redundant (I'll add they aren't BAD players as such). They are mid. Everyone sprukes about how great the Trbojevic's are - are they? They've achieved absolutely nothing at Manly.

• We need a specialist 9 (GCKT?)
• We need a specialist 13 (explosive and mobile)
• We need props playing prop
• we need a real utility (play all positions)
• We need players who can make the field

etc etc etc

Sorry for the length of the post here. I'm just entirely done with our mediocrity over the past decade. Just seems even our fans now accept it as path of the course. I just want us to finish in the top 50% of the entire league, and make some noise in the finals.

Can we stop being flops, and start being a well oiled machine, like Des had us ticking along as from say 2006-2012

 

[Disco]

Understand where you're coming from, but here's my take. When we were going through our original rebuild in say 2005, people were devastated to lose players like Chris Hicks. There were petitions to keep Michael Monaghan. Kinda fan favorites that people rated. BUT, we started achieving when these guys were replaced by guys like Ballin, Lyon, Bell, Orford and others.

We have been dog**** for 10 years now. There's no room for sentiments here. We can't afford to have adequate or even decent players if we are to improve.

We may just have to let some favorites go (like we did in the past ) to progress IF there are better options.

Our recruitment is shambolic. We need to go for quality over quantity, not quantity over quality. We've done the latter for 10 years now, and we've literally gone nowhere.

The time for excuses, accepting just decent or okay as being fine is gone. We are literally the laughing stock of the NRL. Opposition fans literally bag our performance and ability and rightly so.

For me, that's why guys like Waddell, Brown, Condon, Talau, Johns, Matterson, Woods, Croker, Tuilagi, Boyle are redundant (I'll add they aren't BAD players as such). They are mid. Everyone sprukes about how great the Trbojevic's are - are they? They've achieved absolutely nothing at Manly.

• We need a specialist 9 (GCKT?)
• We need a specialist 13 (explosive and mobile)
• We need props playing prop
• we need a real utility (play all positions)
• We need players who can make the field

etc etc etc

Sorry for the length of the post here. I'm just entirely done with our mediocrity over the past decade. Just seems even our fans now accept it as path of the course. I just want us to finish in the top 50% of the entire league, and make some noise in the finals.

Can we stop being flops, and start being a well oiled machine, like Des had us ticking along as from say 2006-2012

I dont understand what going on here.... we are not disagreeing.

I'd be delighted to upgrade Croker

 

[Ryan]

I dont understand what going on here.... we are not disagreeing.

I'd be delighted to upgrade Croker

Not arguing. Just discussing. I appreciate your insight, so was just sharing my thoughts

 

[The Bagman]

Understand where you're coming from, but here's my take. When we were going through our original rebuild in say 2005, people were devastated to lose players like Chris Hicks. There were petitions to keep Michael Monaghan. Kinda fan favorites that people rated. BUT, we started achieving when these guys were replaced by guys like Ballin, Lyon, Bell, Orford and others.

We have been dog**** for 10 years now. There's no room for sentiments here. We can't afford to have adequate or even decent players if we are to improve.

We may just have to let some favorites go (like we did in the past ) to progress IF there are better options.

Our recruitment is shambolic. We need to go for quality over quantity, not quantity over quality. We've done the latter for 10 years now, and we've literally gone nowhere.

The time for excuses, accepting just decent or okay as being fine is gone. We are literally the laughing stock of the NRL. Opposition fans literally bag our performance and ability and rightly so.

For me, that's why guys like Waddell, Brown, Condon, Talau, Johns, Matterson, Woods, Croker, Tuilagi, Boyle are redundant (I'll add they aren't BAD players as such). They are mid. Everyone sprukes about how great the Trbojevic's are - are they? They've achieved absolutely nothing at Manly.

• We need a specialist 9 (GCKT?)
• We need a specialist 13 (explosive and mobile)
• We need props playing prop
• we need a real utility (play all positions)
• We need players who can make the field

etc etc etc

Sorry for the length of the post here. I'm just entirely done with our mediocrity over the past decade. Just seems even our fans now accept it as path of the course. I just want us to finish in the top 50% of the entire league, and make some noise in the finals.

Can we stop being flops, and start being a well oiled machine, like Des had us ticking along as from say 2006-2012

GCKT is already a better hooker than Croker. As much as I love Croker's effort and dedication,Croker is bench and back-up. Apologies if this annoys other contributors.

 

[master blaster]

GCKT is already a better hooker than Croker. As much as I love Croker's effort and dedication,Croker is bench and back-up. Apologies if this annoys other contributors.

I agree.If Gordie doesnt get more time in first grade next year, then we will lose him. He has proved he can handle it with the big boys in the Asian Championship, he did quite well, maybe its his time now

 

[maxta]

Personally happy to see GCKT as the starting 9 and I will be suprised if this is not the case over time.
Sure they will start with croker, but it's only a matter of time before this changes, after GCKT has time to prove he is up to the easrly collisions and most importantly, has the defensive capabilities.
Noone can knock Croker as a 100% gutsy player who is usually reliable though is "off the pace' as a distributer who can get his forwards running over the advantage line, nor does he have the heads up ability or zip to be a running menace from dummy half which is a MUST in the modern game.
I do feel he has often been overly critisized in the sense, we have often had no better option and this is an issue that stated when we had to choose between Api and Latu and ended up with None !!
Options have been slim since then and Croker stepped up and played some solid footy and the fact he falls short in some key aspects as a 9, has nothing to do with his effort where he has more of a go than many of the other Manly players......but the time has "Kum Tong" to get a legitimate 9 to help lift us in a vital position , which in turn will elevate the entire team in a big way.
These International hames will do him well and though his side has been getting smoked, he has looked sharp enough and tackled ok.

 

[jbb/james]

I think the reshaping of manlys pack points to the future of croker

he is currently an integral piece of the pack due to the lack of mobility and defensive cover that the previous pack provides. Jake also plays longer minutes than he should for the same reason

improving our defensive and mobility return from the pack, and field position and posession rates, will allow a less defensive and more dangerous 9 to be our first option

a career move for the frog would be to kick more often but thats just a side note really

the pack balance has been off for years and our inability to get a 50/50 split of the ball against the better teams thrusts that into the spotlight. Too often we hand posession over after our sets rather than fighting to get it back. We accept it too easily as part if the game

the better teams chase the ball all game. Challenge for it on all plays

 

[MW66]

Watched a fair bit of both Samoa's games. To be fair to GCKT Samoa was on the back foot in both games. I thought he was fair without being great. If Croker had of played for Samoa i wonder what our assessment would have been? I will hazard a guess and say he would have been better defensively but lacked a bit of GCKT's spark in attack. I do not see GCKT as being a marked upgrade on Croker.

 

[TheSoaringEagle2023]

Watched a fair bit of both Samoa's games. To be fair to GCKT Samoa was on the back foot in both games. I thought he was fair without being great. If Croker had of played for Samoa i wonder what our assessment would have been? I will hazard a guess and say he would have been better defensively but lacked a bit of GCKT's spark in attack. I do not see GCKT as being a marked upgrade on Croker.

You are comparing two different sample sizes. 1 player has played 4 games, 2 of them being internationals and the other player having played for 5 seasons with the club. 4 games is a very small sample size to make a call on whether a player is decent or not. Maybe give at least 1 season before making a call only after 2 games.

 

[MW66]

You are comparing two different sample sizes. 1 player has played 4 games, 2 of them being internationals and the other player having played for 5 seasons with the club. 4 games is a very small sample size to make a call on whether a player is decent or not. Maybe give at least 1 season before making a call only after 2 games.

Just my opinion SoaringEagle and I hope you are right!

 

[manly al]

No doubt the club has been trying for some time now to come up with the best option for giving Froggy a rest .
Lawton not really measuring up there even though when fit quite a competitive player but just not the footy smarts at 9
Weekes certainly looked sharp there on occasions , recall even Dylan Walker having a brief stint there but neither the best fit ..
Gordie seems more a natural choice , may be a while before he can get close to matching Froggy "s defensive strengths but should be more then able to make up for it with his already good direction and keeping the opposition guessing with his attacking style of play .
Think that Humphries could offer something very useful there as well and has a capable kicking game but Gordie [ and his cheer squad ] first cab off the rank no doubt .

 

[Marto1970]

Has Humphries been signed for next year

No doubt the club has been trying for some time now to come up with the best option for giving Froggy a rest .
Lawton not really measuring up there even though when fit quite a competitive player but just not the footy smarts at 9
Weekes certainly looked sharp there on occasions , recall even Dylan Walker having a brief stint there but neither the best fit ..
Gordie seems more a natural choice , may be a while before he can get close to matching Froggy "s defensive strengths but should be more then able to make up for it with his already good direction and keeping the opposition guessing with his attacking style of play .
Think that Humphries could offer something very useful there as well and has a capable kicking game but Gordie [ and his cheer squad ] first cab off the rank no

 

[SeaEagleSI1]

Has Humphries been signed for next year

One article said he has resigned. But I haven’t see a club statement.

 

[Pete W]

Actually a little surprised Croker, after 4 years playing 9, hasn't been able to develop that killer instinct around the ruck.
Traditionally, the best and most incisive dummy halves have been 6s and 7s who transitioned. Playmakers grow up learning to identify and exploit weaknesses in defensive lines, and importantly, assume the responsibility of team direction and tactics. This skillset when honed in on a narrow focal point at hooker is highly effective.

The biggest challenge has always been re toughness and defensive resolve in the middle. Not all halves can cope with that onslaught.

Croker is a strange one in that he is a junior playmaker who seems to love the tough stuff but lacks that key ingredient that makes a playmaker. I wonder how his acceleration from a standing start is, because long term, if he can generate a little leg speed, he would make a great 13 (McInnes style).

On the other hand, if GCKT can take a leaf out of Croker's book, re first contact and tackling technique, he could be anything.

Between the two, we have the perfect 9 in there somewhere