Dylan Walker

[Budgie]

Foran didn't need mentoring at the same age. Neither does Schuster.

Every time I see pics of Schuster, the drive and determination to be one of the game's best is clearly evident. And I love it!

 

[Bearfax]

I disagree Foran had andrew johns teaching him same with dce. Foran also had a superstar team he walked into. One of the best in the modern era for sure. The 40 nil boys! Schuster has none of that. A few great players around him sure but nothing like what foran had

There is a significant difference between having Foran take the 5/8 role and forcing Schuster into a bench position to Foran receiving advice from Johns who was not playing for Manly and tutored DCE and Foran from the side lines.

I'm not suggesting Foran cant give advice and he probably will. No doubt Des, a former 5/8, has also given advice for a few years now. Maybe even Cliffy has had a word or two to Schuster. But that's no where near the same as someone coming into the squad and taking a role, Schuster has been preparing for, for several years and has stayed at Manly for this specific reason.

Jamie Lyon was Manly's 5/8 before Foran came along and unlike Foran today, still had years left in him. Yet he was moved to centre to accommodate Foran's arrival, when he was only 19, which coincidentally is Schuster's age. And Schuster has somewhat more junior recognition than Foran had, before he started first grade and he also has captained junior sides.

Foran was a top class player when he was at Manly, but its easy to forget that, though still talented, he is not the player he was. He could be inspirational as dummy half and no doubt will assist Schuster. But that's a far stretch from taking his place on the field.

As for not having a champion side around him, it is all the more reason Manly gets the most talented kids on the field, which was one of the major complaints most on these sites had last year. No surprise when Des started promoting them late in the year, that the team began to show more attacking flair. It was the juniors that did that, not the older brigade. Experience is important, but youth is needed for vitality, speed, and more initiative. Players like Schuster offer that and he, more than any junior in our squad must be on the field in a play makers role.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

it is all the more reason Manly gets the most talented kids on the field, which was one of the major complaints most on these sites had last year.

The loudest and most high-pitched complaint here last year was when we loaned Hoppa Jnr to the Warriors! So citing that expertise in support of your argument doesn't carry too much weight just at the moment!
😉

 

[Woodsie]

No I've still got mine, here's a photo
View attachment 16012

Jupiter .. thank the Lord ... for a moment I thought it was your anus ..

 

[Captain Moondog]

Jupiter .. thank the Lord ... for a moment I thought it was your anus ..

No that's more of a Black Hole.

 

[Bearfax]

The loudest and most high-pitched complaint here last year was when we loaned Hoppa Jnr to the Warriors! So citing that expertise in support of your argument doesn't carry too much weight just at the moment!
😉

Have a think about players I push for SER8. Just in recent years immediately after they had been let go, Gutherson, Tom Wright, Hastings, Parcell. Everyone went on to far better things elsewhere and we were left with a squad that almost got the spoon twice.

I make mistakes but usually I can see when there is someone worth holding onto. Same applied with Schuster three years back. I'll say the same for a couple of others coming through, now. Certainly, occasionally players like Anderson, who I thought was on the way up, falter. It happens. But as with players of that quality, you hold on to them long enough to see if after a year or two in first grade or at least reserves, they reach the level their promise suggests. Sometimes they don't, but usually sheer talent will rise to the surface.

Young Hoppa has sheer talent. Hasn't shown it in firsts yet, but he hasn't had time. So far just five games in a losing side primarily on the wing. He has the skills to be outstanding. Manly should hold onto him for two years and see if that talent translates to on the field performance. Letting him go now could be another egg on the face decision.

Manly have let these kids, or imports with potential, go far too early in recent times, sometimes after developing them for years. Rarely happened a decade or two ago. And for what? Pedestrian so so players, or former top players near retirement, brought in as back ups, ending up playing first grade almost permanently because of injuries, while potentially skilful youngsters sit on the side lines.

Hopoate is a kid now feeling his way after two serious injuries. I've watched a young athlete, a professional trainer, at my gym, who recently suffered one such injury. Six months later after the operation, despite returning to training, he is still hobbling and tentative. I suspect it takes a lot to get that confidence back and overcome the fear of a relapse, especially after it happens twice. And quite frankly I'm too utilitarian to be much concerned with their other stuff away from the game, which is often just a lot of b.s in my opinion. They are there to play football full stop. He would be in first grade now but for those injuries.

Too often these kids are expected to fly before they walk, and it seems decisions, like so many I see today, are knee jerk, rather than well considered. My argument would be, hold onto talent and watch it develop in first grade for a year or two. At that age it costs far less than most established first graders. Teams pay for talent. Newcastle paid 18 year old Ponga $3.5 million for five years in 2017, after barely a year of first grade. Were they wrong? If they don't reach the next level, then let them go. But never let talent go before you've seriously tested it. in my opinion. Without the experience of at least a year or two in first grade, you cant expect them to gain the confidence and hardness to demonstrate just how good they can become. The Bulldogs forgot that with Thurston. The Cowboys forgot that with Ponga. The Sea Eagles have forgotten that with a couple of players who've since starred elsewhere.

Having said all that, I also acknowledge Schuster may fail to reach the level I think he can. That's the risk I guess that has to be taken in any player. However, to sit him on the bench or out of his natural position, and not allow him to show if he is as good as he looks, is not going to tell you if he is as good as he seems.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Without the experience of at least a year or two in first grade, you cant expect them to gain the confidence and hardness to demonstrate just how good they can become.

Sorry but no logic to your argument. You want to give talented young players "a year or two" playing NRL before expecting them to show whether they can be any good? Your example of young Hoppa proves why not. All the talent but simply not ready.

And no team can expect to do well in NRL selecting someone not ready 5 times. Let alone selecting several young talents at the same time for "a year or two". Just to find out whether they are going to make it.

So many talented youngsters, so few actually make it. And I disagree that we'd have done better to retain Hastings Parcell and Tom Wright. Same with Ramien, Knight, Garner, Hynes and co, even though to some degree they've all become fair players. Gutho, in hindsight, yes, JWH, yes, but those two are the exception.

Glenn Stewart is the perfect example of giving a player time to become a top player. When he does, put him in first grade, until then you don't! For a couple of years you were howling for the inclusion of Jade Anderson, but he simply wasn't ready. As for Schu, he's clearly going to make it (injury permitting) but I expect we'll start 2021 with Foran at 5/8.

 

[Bearfax]

Sorry but no logic to your argument. You want to give talented young players "a year or two" playing NRL before expecting them to show whether they can be any good? Your example of young Hoppa proves why not. All the talent but simply not ready.

And no team can expect to do well in NRL selecting someone not ready 5 times. Let alone selecting several young talents at the same time for "a year or two". Just to find out whether they are going to make it.

So many talented youngsters, so few actually make it. And I disagree that we'd have done better to retain Hastings Parcell and Tom Wright. Same with Ramien, Knight, Garner, Hynes and co, even though to some degree they've all become fair players. Gutho, in hindsight, yes, JWH, yes, they are the exception.

Glenn Stewart is the perfect example of giving a player time to become a top player. When he does, put him in first grade, until then you don't! For a couple of years you were howling for the inclusion of Jade Anderson, but he simply wasn't ready. As for Schu, he's clearly going to make it (injury permitting) but I expect we'll start 2021 with Foran at 5/8.

Cant understand your position on logic. What you are proposing is one of the reasons Manly are at the bottom of the comp. Because we aren't holding the kids who can make a difference and instead go out and look for safe and slow. Its been happening for much of the past 5-6 years. If you have a player of quality coming through, not every young player, I'm talking about those who have shown outstanding quality during their juniors years, I would consider it illogical, not to give them time in first grade to develop. You mentioned a whole bunch of kids let go and said they are just exceptions. No, they are examples of a failure of the Manly system in the past decade to hold onto our best young players and give them time to show their wares. And this love affair with Foran intrigues me. He WAS an outstanding player and if you read what I said about him leaving, while others attacked him, I said it was just business, because I'm pragmatic about these issues. But lets be honest and pragmatic again. For five years he's been broken, shown the door twice and not re signed by the third club. We may be very lucky and he survives the year, but SE if we lose Schuster because of Foran getting first try at 5/8 and lets be serious, if he manages to stay on the field it will be for the year (that's how Des operates), you can say goodbye to Schuster. Another lost opportunity. Madness.

As for would we have done better with the players we lost. If you think the ones we had on the field this year in the backs were better than those we lost, I stand back in astonishment mate.

 

[Nice Beaver]

I disagree Foran had andrew johns teaching him same with dce. Foran also had a superstar team he walked into. One of the best in the modern era for sure. The 40 nil boys! Schuster has none of that. A few great players around him sure but nothing like what foran had

Mate....not sure I'd mention Johns as the mentor for Foran

We all know what Johns brought to the club to influence Foz.....

 

[Bring back the.... Biff?]

There is a significant difference between having Foran take the 5/8 role and forcing Schuster into a bench position to Foran receiving advice from Johns who was not playing for Manly and tutored DCE and Foran from the side lines.

I'm not suggesting Foran cant give advice and he probably will. No doubt Des, a former 5/8, has also given advice for a few years now. Maybe even Cliffy has had a word or two to Schuster. But that's no where near the same as someone coming into the squad and taking a role, Schuster has been preparing for, for several years and has stayed at Manly for this specific reason.

Jamie Lyon was Manly's 5/8 before Foran came along and unlike Foran today, still had years left in him. Yet he was moved to centre to accommodate Foran's arrival, when he was only 19, which coincidentally is Schuster's age. And Schuster has somewhat more junior recognition than Foran had, before he started first grade and he also has captained junior sides.

Foran was a top class player when he was at Manly, but its easy to forget that, though still talented, he is not the player he was. He could be inspirational as dummy half and no doubt will assist Schuster. But that's a far stretch from taking his place on the field.

As for not having a champion side around him, it is all the more reason Manly gets the most talented kids on the field, which was one of the major complaints most on these sites had last year. No surprise when Des started promoting them late in the year, that the team began to show more attacking flair. It was the juniors that did that, not the older brigade. Experience is important, but youth is needed for vitality, speed, and more initiative. Players like Schuster offer that and he, more than any junior in our squad must be on the field in a play makers role.

Mate....not sure I'd mention Johns as the mentor for Foran

We all know what Johns brought to the club to influence Foz.....

2011 premiership?

 

[Bearfax]

2011 premiership?

Not sure Biff what you are alluding to here. I have never suggested Foran wasn't an outstanding player and he served Manly well. I wasn't that concerned about him leaving because that's just business, though he should have told Manly earlier instead of waiting for DCE to sign elsewhere costing us at least $300,00 more per season to get him back, and then sniping at the club. But that's history. If he plays well for Manly next season great. But again I reiterate, would you have risked losing Foran back in 2009 when he first started by insisting Lyon plays 5/8. Lyon could have continued in that spot, which was his natural position for the next four of five years. Would that be smart thinking? Foran is a talented player, no question, and if he plays dummy half, it could be something that sets the game alight with DCE and Schuster on each side. Play him at 5/8 and if he doesnt get injured, he'll do OK, but not like 2011. And Schuster ends in the forwards and by years end looking for another club that appreciates his ball playing skills. Do the maths. Foran for maybe a year. Schuster for perhaps ten. What's best for Manly?

 

[Bring back the.... Biff?]

Not sure Biff what you are alluding to here. I have never suggested Foran wasn't an outstanding player and he served Manly well. I wasn't that concerned about him leaving because that's just business, though he should have told Manly earlier instead of waiting for DCE to sign elsewhere costing us at least $300,00 more per season to get him back, and then sniping at the club. But that's history. If he plays well for Manly next season great. But again I reiterate, would you have risked losing Foran back in 2009 when he first started by insisting Lyon plays 5/8. Lyon could have continued in that spot, which was his natural position for the next four of five years. Would that be smart thinking? Foran is a talented player, no question, and if he plays dummy half, it could be something that sets the game alight with DCE and Schuster on each side. Play him at 5/8 and if he doesnt get injured, he'll do OK, but not like 2011. And Schuster ends in the forwards and by years end looking for another club that appreciates his ball playing skills. Do the maths. Foran for maybe a year. Schuster for perhaps ten. What's best for Manly?

I was replying to nice beaver.. i have no idea why you're post is there haha end of the day both of us have no clue ehat dessie boy will do. Speculation is all.. i think foran will start you think Schuster will. Imo des will pick the best player for the job, i dont see why Schuster cant come off the bench and wreck havoc like barba used to off the bench. Kinda annoying really.. not knowing. Long wait to find out 🙁 what id really like is foran to 6 jake to prop and Schuster to 13

 

[eagleron]

Haven't we all.

I'm in hospital you can imagine the cacophony of sounds in here throughout the night

 

[Nice Beaver]

2011 premiership?

Johns didn't join the Manly coaching staff until 2012 as far as I know?

Regardless, I think you know what I am referring to.

I'm not a fan of the Foran signing at all. But I hope he has a great season and proves me 100% wrong.

 

[Bring back the.... Biff?]

Johns didn't join the Manly coaching staff until 2012 as far as I know?

Regardless, I think you know what I am referring to.

I'm not a fan of the Foran signing at all. But I hope he has a great season and proves me 100% wrong.

Maybe he did join after 2011.. im sure someone on here knows. If Schuster starts then we have foran as depth. Over croker my friend you should rejoice

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

And Walker and Suli in the centre. Cust will be fine. He'll be a star by the end of the year. And I fear Fauna might well be in jail. Hopefully not.

Hope you are wrong but you may well be right

 

[Bearfax]

I was replying to nice beaver.. i have no idea why you're post is there haha end of the day both of us have no clue ehat dessie boy will do. Speculation is all.. i think foran will start you think Schuster will. Imo des will pick the best player for the job, i dont see why Schuster cant come off the bench and wreck havoc like barba used to off the bench. Kinda annoying really.. not knowing. Long wait to find out 🙁 what id really like is foran to 6 jake to prop and Schuster to 13

In fact Barba said he thought Schuster was outstanding and was most impressed while he was on the field. Schuster wasn't great in my opinion, but he did enough to suggest he's a natural for the position. Pragmatism. Good speculators know when to make the right decision . In recent years Manly's speculators, in my opinion have been flawed, and that's not retrospective. To challenge this argument, one needs to examine results, and this is a results based game. I suggest you also look at Foran's results over recent years. Less than 35% win rate, whilst he's on the field 2017-20. Doesn't say everything of course but he's not the Messiah, he's just a talented player past his prime, still with something to offer but not at the risk of a potential top liner on the rise..

Just because selectors have worked or played for the club doesn't make them great speculators. The only thing that makes a speculator superior is total dispassion, utility, and enough knowledge to make a good educate guess. Love of a player's past efforts in earlier years, is not dispassion.

In my opinion given last years effort, I don't think Des made good selection decisions. In fact I think his effort was poor. Not to say he doesn't have the capacity for good decision making but its very different when you have a great stable to choose from. A good coach knows how to use average talent too. He didn't this year when the pressure was on through injuries. Hopefully he's learned a few things, as his selection of youngsters began to show positive signs late in the year, as so many here were arguing for. May amaze you but he is just a man and he has his own biases and flaws in judgement as has the rest of us. I just hope he steps back and looks at this logically from a long term perspective. He's not God, he's just a man. Time to stop idolising him and past champions and look to the future, pragmatically.

Now you may think I'm being somewhat above my rank. But I've been trained to be pragmatic. So I see things that way. I'm also not God, but I am pragmatic, not bound to past adulations. Look to today and the future, not to yesterdays glories. I actually want to see Manly win, not just see some champion of the past try to recover past glories

 

[Bring back the.... Biff?]

In fact Barba said he thought Schuster was outstanding and was most impressed while he was on the field. Schuster wasn't great in my opinion, but he did enough to suggest he's a natural for the position. Pragmatism. Good speculators know when to make the right decision . In recent years Manly's speculators, in my opinion have been flawed, and that's not retrospective. To challenge this argument, one needs to examine results, and this is a results based game. I suggest you also look at Foran's results over recent years. Less than 35% win rate, whilst he's on the field 2017-20. Doesn't say everything of course but he's not the Messiah, he's just a talented player past his prime, still with something to offer but not at the risk of a potential top liner on the rise..

Just because selectors have worked or played for the club doesn't make them great speculators. The only thing that makes a speculator superior is total dispassion, utility, and enough knowledge to make a good educate guess. Love of a player's past efforts in earlier years, is not dispassion.

In my opinion given last years effort, I don't think Des made good selection decisions. In fact I think his effort was poor. Not to say he doesn't have the capacity for good decision making but its very different when you have a great stable to choose from. A good coach knows how to use average talent too. He didn't this year when the pressure was on through injuries. Hopefully he's learned a few things, as his selection of youngsters began to show positive signs late in the year, as so many here were arguing for. May amaze you but he is just a man and he has his own biases and flaws in judgement as has the rest of us. I just hope he steps back and looks at this logically from a long term perspective. He's not God, he's just a man. Time to stop idolising him and past champions and look to the future, pragmatically.

Now you may think I'm being somewhat above my rank. But I've been trained to be pragmatic. So I see things that way. I'm also not God, but I am pragmatic, not bound to past adulations. Look to today and the future, not to yesterdays glories. I actually want to see Manly win, not just see some champion of the past try to recover past glories

You mean Benji. I dont see why Schuster couldn't be our x factor off the bench. Foran is only playing 1 season and imo we are better with him. You spoke of his win rate. He played for the dogs and the only time they looked good was when he played. Also check dces win rate this season

 

[manlyfan76]

So we don't have a 80 min hooker and people are suggesting we waste two interchanges on the 5/8 position by swapping the shoe for foz twice in a game. Plus swap 9 for 14 . That's three interchanges burnt by a team that has not shown it can adjust to six again footy and that has injury prone fullback and Walker (centre?) God help us if a back gets injured.

That's potentially four interchanges burnt while other teams have used zero.

So looks like Jake is playing 80mins every week as is our backrow. Then other benchies are filling in for centre or fullback due to injuries.

Mind blown.

 

[Wombat64]

My opinion ( and I’m no expert )

Cust to 9 ( on a wing and a prayer )

Foran to 6 ( first and possibly last 20 minutes )

Schuster to 14 ( middle 40 OR Foran to 9 if Cust gets injured).

But I do state , I’m no @Technical Coach

One of those technical coaches is enough .......