Des out coached by Fitzgibbon tonight

[frank stokes]

I came away feeling strangely content after last night's game.

Yes the first half was very frustrating but we showed in the second half we're capable of adjusting after halftime input from Des, which tells me he still knows how to read a game & knows what changes need to be made to improve & our players are able to take it onboard & execute it.

Whatever his reasons for starting Harper, he adjusted & improved our performance.

After all, if our poor performance was all on Des, surely our improved performance was also on him?

I find that encouraging.

I was super impressed that the team could lift after half time when they really had no right to...
But I am sick-to-death of sitting down with excitement to watch a 'big game' and having our team blown off the park after 15min (Storm/Rabbits finals last year, Roosters/Sharks this year... the Riff at least waited til 25min in...)
So frustrating as the games in between continually make me think we have something here and then the good sides smack us in the face with a heavy dose of reality...
May not be Des playing the games but he has not found a way to stop this rot (as yet)... Hopefully he does a Garrick and turns it around....

 

[QueefRichards]

Just wanted to talk about our attack -

I think Okakauatu could be a Menzies style hole runner off DCE but otherwise DCE keeps cramping his outside men, there was one passage in the first half where he took an angled run and squashed three of his outside men into an 8 metre corridor on the right before trying to cut back under before he was tackled. It was only a little moment but how on earth is Saab or Harper supposed to do anything with that.

 

[Tragic Eagle]

Apart from one player the group showed some ticker last night. Lots of injuries and lots of excuses. Poor selections, poor tactics and poor use of the bench are just not gonna get us to a premiership. We needed those premiership points last night and IMO they were thrown away.

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

Was the backpedalling, arm grabbing, and static line all the fault of Harper or was he getting nothing from his inside defenders. Yes Harper was owned and should've been replaced after 20 min but he wasn't the only culprit out there.

oh totally agree @mickqld - I have said a number of times on different issues on here about last night... slide defence starts from the inside out. The inside defenders always control tempo and who is doing what and who is taking who. DCE regularly seems to take the wrong man and his communication with Harper and then Harper with Saab is diabolical at times. They just don't communicate well and I think they both make bad misreads which let me tell you in slide defence is damn easy to do because of all the decoy runners.. essentially with slide you don't slide off until the ball has left your attackers hands and then you slide to the next man... always trying to use the sideline as your own "edge " defender. So with the decoys that makes it damn hard to work out who to take but that is what they get paid the big bucks for. The inside forwards like Keppie and Sipley also get lazy or forget assignments and hence you see tries being scored as they are late in covering up from the inside. The space at times between Haumole and DCE is also too wide.. wasn't noticeable last night but weeks prior and in the first two games it was. I have never played in a back pedaling slide defence either - with slide I was always taught - head straight up the field as a unit... not backwards and then start yuor slide if you don't have enough defensive numbers to play man on man. Maybe the back pedalling is a new strategy but I never played in a backwards moving slide defence and certainly don't understand why you would do that.. except to give you some more time to work out what in the hell you are doing?

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

True, we will never know, if Kalua would of nailed some T's on Talaki in the 1st half. Talaki was completely contained in the 2nd H though. Anyway for what's it's worth, I'd take the punt on Kalua to take up the challenge on Talaki, on what I saw from him in the 2nd H.

yep... agreed - I would have had him in instead of Harper... been saying that for a few weeks. His defence in the trials and so far has been really good and he adds a wow factor in attack. Harper is a decent player - lets not be silly - he can play but his confidence has taken a battering over the last 6/8 weeks last year and so far this year

 

[mickqld]

oh totally agree @mickqld - I have said a number of times on different issues on here about last night... slide defence starts from the inside out. The inside defenders always control tempo and who is doing what and who is taking who. DCE regularly seems to take the wrong man and his communication with Harper and then Harper with Saab is diabolical at times. They just don't communicate well and I think they both make bad misreads which let me tell you in slide defence is damn easy to do because of all the decoy runners.. essentially with slide you don't slide off until the ball has left your attackers hands and then you slide to the next man... always trying to use the sideline as your own "edge " defender. So with the decoys that makes it damn hard to work out who to take but that is what they get paid the big bucks for. The inside forwards like Keppie and Sipley also get lazy or forget assignments and hence you see tries being scored as they are late in covering up from the inside. The space at times between Haumole and DCE is also too wide.. wasn't noticeable last night but weeks prior and in the first two games it was. I have never played in a back pedaling slide defence either - with slide I was always taught - head straight up the field as a unit... not backwards and then start yuor slide if you don't have enough defensive numbers to play man on man. Maybe the back pedalling is a new strategy but I never played in a backwards moving slide defence and certainly don't understand why you would do that.. except to give you some more time to work out what in the hell you are doing?

I was always taught the best slide was to come up as a straight line but run at roughly a 45 deg angle. That way you can adjust if someone straightens the attack and also you have the defender beside you to cover behind you. Last night was appalling. They were standing still like a frozen rabbit in the gun sights and Talakai had time and space to do what he liked. I don't think I've seen a worse defensive setup in decades.

 

[pjayz]

We did go extremely close to winning.

Not really. We were never going to come back all the way. We made it respectable.

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

I was always taught the best slide was to come up as a straight line but run at roughly a 45 deg angle. That way you can adjust if someone straightens the attack and also you have the defender beside you to cover behind you. Last night was appalling. They were standing still like a frozen rabbit in the gun sights and Talakai had time and space to do what he liked. I don't think I've seen a worse defensive setup in decades.

it was diabolical stuff - DCE and Harper were deer in the headlights... that comes not from them being bad defenders but the lack of communication with neither really knowing what the other was doing

 

[Woodsie]

Just for the nostalgic amongst you .. back in the day we were taught that the only 2 good times to pass a ball to a centre were

1) flat at the line when he was hitting a hole .. or

2) as early as possible to give him an opportunity to beat his man ..

Now, the former is scarce, and the latter non existant ... last night saw a return to giving a centre Talakabeastie early ball and the room to beat his man ..

I hope the lost art is making a return for all the stepping elusive centres to make a revival ..

 

[Marto1970]

DeLuis is an excellent defender, you only need to look back at his previous games to see that. We were missing three middle forwards and we select a centre on the bench alongside Walker who is a small “forward”.

If there was any doubt over Harper’s health (as was reported) he should never have been picked in the first place. Personally his play towards the end of last year and the start of this year - coupled with the impressive showing of Koula in limited time - warranted Koula’s elevation over Harper.

I believe one or two changes can actually make a big difference in a game. A chain is only as strong as it’s weakest link. With Koula in the centres and another middle forward on the bench (which we desperately needed) we would either have won that game or gone extremely close.

Des is a human being, something that is lost on this forum at times. He does makes mistakes, and last night was an example of that. What I will say, is that hooking Harper is not something I thought I’d see Des do at half time, so that was positive. I can’t see Harper in the 17 next week.

We have 4 props plus Jake who plays 80 min X 60 min at prop ,if the rest only have to punch out 100min, 25 each

 

[Karshy]

it was diabolical stuff - DCE and Harper were deer in the headlights... that comes not from them being bad defenders but the lack of communication with neither really knowing what the other was doing

I don't even think it was DCE, it was 100% Harper... 6 times...

The benefit of Koula in Des defensive system is that he reads the opposition attack earlier, more accurately/effectively and reacts, then his speed puts the opposition under immediate pressure. As much as you want to call it the "queue in the wrack" the reason Talakai wasn't as effective in the 2nd half is because he had 1-2 less seconds to build up to anything every time he got the ball.

Cronulla was a one trick pony last night with their "get it to Talakai" strategy and had absolutely nothing else. This is even more enfuriating given Wilton was the decoy almost every run for the last 4 weeks and Harper should not have taken that bait a single time. So in terms of "outcoaching Des", then yes the plan A worked for Cronulla in targetting Harper but it was more of a hard counter "scissor paper rock" type of way which Des should own because he picked Harper over Koula. If Koula plays, what does Cronulla do then? Outside of that, man for man accross the board, i felt like Manly did very well.

Add to that that we have seemingly got the refs on the wrong side this year to the point that we were getting penalised for Cronulla mistakes last night, the bunker was blantantly ignored the obvious ref error of a knock back from Croker and we couldnt get a single set restart ourselves (zero for the night) and particuarly in the last 20 minutes when the game was back on again with only 10 points in it. The benefit of this for our side is that when the refs inevitably change the rules for the finals (lol), we will be well versed in not getting anything out of them!

 

[XV-1]

Haha you are a classic. Everytime we lose Des got outcoached.

It's been a popular thread 🙂😉

Amazing what happens when you open a thread that one can actually use your brain in getting to different scenarios. We all like to be coaches here, good fun discussing the merits and different approaches.

And Des was certainly out coached as far as the defensive structure against Talakai - Fitzgerald got Cronulla to put many bodies in motion and many options after Harps decided to defend running backwards - leaving holes everywhere.
DCE should take some responsibility in not tearing Harps a new one after the 2nd screw up - but it happened another 3 more times.

Surely better than the threads titled Jake, Turbo etc.

 

[Snake]

The defence was not DCEs fault. The half always have to hold on the lead runner and when Daly holds, Harper and Saab are supposed to bite in hard to shut it down. We weren’t using slide defence on the right edge so not sure why we are discussing how slide defence is supposed to work.

Also, there were many occasions where we numbered up but Harper’s attempt at tackle was u/8s quality. Turn style stuff.

 

[The '47ers]

Not sure about out coached, it was simply:

Fitzy: "Give it to Talakai!"
Des: "Harper tackle him!"

And we all know what happened there.

 

[Ranga]

That first half was a complete, collective failure. The coach(es) and the players have to own it, and to be fair, I think they will.

I will be very interested to see our response v Souths next weekend.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure that last week in the post game press conference Des said the team has been working hard on their starts. It's not working!

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

I don't even think it was DCE, it was 100% Harper... 6 times...

The benefit of Koula in Des defensive system is that he reads the opposition attack earlier, more accurately/effectively and reacts, then his speed puts the opposition under immediate pressure. As much as you want to call it the "queue in the wrack" the reason Talakai wasn't as effective in the 2nd half is because he had 1-2 less seconds to build up to anything every time he got the ball.

Cronulla was a one trick pony last night with their "get it to Talakai" strategy and had absolutely nothing else. This is even more enfuriating given Wilton was the decoy almost every run for the last 4 weeks and Harper should not have taken that bait a single time. So in terms of "outcoaching Des", then yes the plan A worked for Cronulla in targetting Harper but it was more of a hard counter "scissor paper rock" type of way which Des should own because he picked Harper over Koula. If Koula plays, what does Cronulla do then? Outside of that, man for man accross the board, i felt like Manly did very well.

Add to that that we have seemingly got the refs on the wrong side this year to the point that we were getting penalised for Cronulla mistakes last night, the bunker was blantantly ignored the obvious ref error of a knock back from Croker and we couldnt get a single set restart ourselves (zero for the night) and particuarly in the last 20 minutes when the game was back on again with only 10 points in it. The benefit of this for our side is that when the refs inevitably change the rules for the finals (lol), we will be well versed in not getting anything out of them!

The defence was not DCEs fault. The half always have to hold on the lead runner and when Daly holds, Harper and Saab are supposed to bite in hard to shut it down. We weren’t using slide defence on the right edge so not sure why we are discussing how slide defence is supposed to work.

Also, there were many occasions where we numbered up but Harper’s attempt at tackle was u/8s quality. Turn style stuff.

Well I need to watch again because they certainly weren't playing up and in defence and they were always outnumbered so they would have had to be playing slide

 

[Snake]

Well I need to watch again because they certainly weren't playing up and in defence and they were always outnumbered so they would have had to be playing slide

The idea of a compressed middle is to control ruck speed and then hit in on the edges when they go wide. The lead runner (backrower) is always going to hold up the opposition half, as that’s the whole point of the decoy. Giving a guy like Talakai your outside shoulder is suicide. There was an occasion where Harper could have corralled Talakai back to his inside shoulder and use DCE as support but he showed him the outside and got his pants pulled down. Dumb football. Also, the try off the kick for Kennedy was such a poor attempt from Harper which caused the line break.

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

well not sure there is much difference with the principles between chase out and slide because if they are playing chase out.... the "rules" of slide would surely apply - hold your man until the ball is shifted then "slide" out to the next or "chase" out if that is what it is now called whether that is to inside or outside shoulder. And to me sorry I know I am old and outdated - having someone on my outside shoulder especially on a right side defence would be the absolute perfect situation if you can actually tackle. Now maybe because they have no technique these days they need inside help. But there is no way if you are right shouldered on a right side defence should you need to coral anyone to your inside shoulder to try and get help.

 

[Snoz1976]

In every respect.

Not changing the compacted defence when Cronulla were all over them.

Not dragging Harper off after 15 minutes, especially when he had Koula on the bench.

We need fundamental changes in D and A if we have any hope of beating a top 4 side.

Worlds best player out
3 front rowers and one back rower out
A centre that had one of the best halves of footy ever
No luck whatsoever with injury and decisions
Played at a ground that not many visitors come away with the 2 pts

I’m not prepared to say he was out coached