Cue the numbnuts .. 1st in .. Bryce Cartwright

[MadMarcus]

From the Matai story thread you can see our players are at different extremes in this debate. Stevie played with the flu and it almost killed Dave Tyrell, whereas Jorge was so pro flu shot he gave one to Dylan Walker when he played for Souths...

The former Manly centre had the flu the night he blasted Tyrell into NRL immortality. He also gave away about 10cm in height and roughly 10kg in weight to the Souths forward.

Just minutes after his Sea Eagles teammate Jorge Taufua had caught Souths' Dylan Walker with a huge shot, Matai made the decision to rush up to catch Tyrell out and came miles in-field to get underneath the Souths prop.

Slater reveals the hitman Storm worried about

 

[yokahontas]

I think one of the problems with the flu vaccine for those who choose not to get it is that whilst the reported number of cases resulting in death seem high, I am yet to meet someone who died from the flu. That’s not to say people don’t.

One of my father’s closest friends is an almost retired specialist surgeon who has worked in several hospitals both here and interstate. He freely admits that it is almost always underlying complications and bacterial infections which kills the vast majority of elderly people who are recorded to have died as a result of influenza.

Over the last 49 years I have known too many people who have expired from both natural and unnatural causes. Heart attacks, strokes, cancer, dementia, diabetes, MS, kidney failure, liver failure, Hodgkinsons disease, brain aneurysms, murders, car accidents, drowning, burning, smoke inhalation, suicide, drug overdoses, golden staff, poisoning, accidental mishaps, etc... the list goes on and on. But I am yet to meet anyone in my life who has died of the flu.

Before the mob starts screaming blue bloody murder, let me state very clearly that I am not an anti-vaxer, nor do I claim to be any kind of authority on the subject. I am merely stating a fact from my own personal experience after half a century of existence.

See, the ‘underlying conditions’ argument is being used by a lot of people trying to downplay COVID-19 deaths as well.

Look at it this way - just in my own family I can name multiple people who have underlying conditions that put them at serious risk of death or complications from this virus (or the flu). My mum, for example - she’s got a heart condition. Well-managed (as it is) she should have a couple of decades left in her (she’s only in her 60s). My partner is still immunocompromised after a bout of lymphoma (early 40s). My niece is also immunocompromised thanks to recent Kawasaki disease - she’s 4. So it’s not just the very elderly or the terminally ill that are at risk here, and the ‘oh well, everyone who’s dying or getting bad complications has an underlying condition’ attitude ignores the fact that a whole lot of these people would be relatively fine if they don’t get a dose of COVID-19 and/or influenza. Hell, I’ve got an autoimmune disease that has caused a bit of an issue with my kidneys - I live a 100% normal life, barring a blood test to check my kidney function every 2 months and a visit to the specialist twice a year - but we already know the coronavirus is causing kidney failure in some people. Betcha I’d be right in the frame for that particular complication, because of my ‘underlying condition’.

So hypothetically you’d put my mum dying down to heart failure, me to kidney failure etc - but without a virus severely exacerbating what are well-managed conditions that have minimal impact on our daily lives or life expectancy, we wouldn’t have died...

 

[simon64]

I haven't read the whole thread and I assume that it has moved away from anti-vaxxers to Covid-19 in some way.

But permit me to drag it back for a second.

My cousin holds a PhD, is a founding director of the Australian Institute for NanoMedicine at UNSW, a member of the Order of Australia and this year's NSW Premier's Woman of the Year.

When I mentioned anti-vaxxers, she just shook her head. That'll do me. I don't need to google anything.

 

[robbiea]

Budgie .. I heard (not confirmed) .. that the Islander lads are refusing because their religion prohibits it .....

Thinks can only get better when religion enters the equation ...

Maybe Australia should make it mandatory to all new residents then ,it may ebb the flow from across the ditch.

 

[Tragic Eagle]

Anti vaccination for highly contagious deceases comes at great risk. Just look what happened in Samoa last year with the measles killing 50 children. Vaccination for measles was made mandatory in Samoa in response this disaster. Cultural beliefs and religions are sometimes rigid but the common good must surely always prevail. So if receiving a vaccination will potentially save other's lives not only yours or your child's then wouldn't it be socially irresponsible not to vaccinate?

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

I haven't read the whole thread and I assume that it has moved away from anti-vaxxers to Covid-19 in some way.

But permit me to drag it back for a second.

My cousin holds a PhD, is a founding director of the Australian Institute for NanoMedicine at UNSW, a member of the Order of Australia and this year's NSW Premier's Woman of the Year.

When I mentioned anti-vaxxers, she just shook her head. That'll do me. I don't need to google anything.

^^^^^^^ This wins the inter webby today.

 

[Kevinward777]

14,324.567 as of 32 December last year

Yes, I’m aware of what the numbers imply. But that doesn’t change the fact that I have known people to die from all kinds of things in my 49 years but am yet to meet or know a single soul to have died from influenza. Funnily enough neither has my wife, my parents or my best mate. They are the only people I have asked thus far. Which is the only point I was really trying to make.

Do you know anyone who has died from influenza? Just curious.

 

[Kevinward777]

See, the ‘underlying conditions’ argument is being used by a lot of people trying to downplay COVID-19 deaths as well.

Look at it this way - just in my own family I can name multiple people who have underlying conditions that put them at serious risk of death or complications from this virus (or the flu). My mum, for example - she’s got a heart condition. Well-managed (as it is) she should have a couple of decades left in her (she’s only in her 60s). My partner is still immunocompromised after a bout of lymphoma (early 40s). My niece is also immunocompromised thanks to recent Kawasaki disease - she’s 4. So it’s not just the very elderly or the terminally ill that are at risk here, and the ‘oh well, everyone who’s dying or getting bad complications has an underlying condition’ attitude ignores the fact that a whole lot of these people would be relatively fine if they don’t get a dose of COVID-19 and/or influenza. Hell, I’ve got an autoimmune disease that has caused a bit of an issue with my kidneys - I live a 100% normal life, barring a blood test to check my kidney function every 2 months and a visit to the specialist twice a year - but we already know the coronavirus is causing kidney failure in some people. Betcha I’d be right in the frame for that particular complication, because of my ‘underlying condition’.

So hypothetically you’d put my mum dying down to heart failure, me to kidney failure etc - but without a virus severely exacerbating what are well-managed conditions that have minimal impact on our daily lives or life expectancy, we wouldn’t have died...

I’m certainly not advocating that people don’t get a flu shot, just commenting on a fact in my own life. I have never met anyone who died from influenza yet the number of deaths reported each year are extraordinary high. However, I’ve met multiple people who have died in obscure ways, in some forms more than once. This is the same for the individuals whom I have asked.

Hopefully all of the people who are most at risk will be vaccinated this year and the strains the pharmaceuticals come up with are the right ones.

 

[Kevinward777]

Over 900 people died from the Flu last year..... I have immune compromised grandchild (3) and son in law (cancer)and being exposed to the flu is a real killer possibility for them, a jab is a small price to pay to protect the vulnerable in society.

I’m sorry to hear about your child and son in law. I hope they are both okay. Are they vaccinated against catching influenza?

 

[Woodsie]

Maybe Australia should make it mandatory to all new residents then ,it may ebb the flow from across the ditch.

I know you half jest ... but the herd is playing a numbers game ... if the number of people having brain malfunctions, or suffering from my God said .... increases to the point of endangering the herd ..... it is entirely possible ...

The world of .. Pandemics Box .. has been opened and experienced ... the world will not be the same place again ... and those that put others ..(or our lifestyle) .. at risk because of an article Interwebby Karen read ... will be far less tolerated ...

Vaccination against Measles is now mandatory in Samoa ... and Ironically we have the anti-vaxxers to thank ... it took their abject stupidity to cause nearly 100 deaths to make it happen ...

PSS ... I don't believe all the Islander's Gods wrote specific instructions about vaccinations ... most appear to be sensible on the subject .... or maybe they just haven't had Karen interpret their good book for them yet ..

 

[MuzztheEagle]

I’m certainly not advocating that people don’t get a flu shot, just commenting on a fact in my own life. I have never met anyone who died from influenza yet the number of deaths reported each year are extraordinary high. However, I’ve met multiple people who have died in obscure ways, in some forms more than once. This is the same for the individuals whom I have asked.

Hopefully all of the people who are most at risk will be vaccinated this year and the strains the pharmaceuticals come up with are the right ones.

I think it's a valid point, and especially so when you are talking about convincing people to take it. But it also important to remember the huge advances that we have made in healthcare in the past century. Thanks to this, you are far less likely to die from diseases now than in the past.
I couldn't find specific influenza data, but as influenza can lead to respiratory infection and pneumonia I think the following illustrates that point. I am making some assumptions here and it's not proof - but I don't think that there are many on here who would argue against the idea that access to improved healthcare reduces deaths dramatically.

So let's look at our current situation with COVID-19. The majority of people who have contracted it an fallen ill have or are not dying. But a problem occurs when the number of people who require medical attention surpasses what is available to a community. People are denied access and we go back to 19th century mortality rates.
Now, there will be people who will say that; "I'm willing to take that risk because I'm fit an healthy" But there are (at least) two big problems with that.
One, you may increase community transmission. And you need to remember that there are vulnerable people within the community who do not have the luxury of choosing between vaccination or not. There are some people who are considered to be at a high risk to receive vaccinations (mainly because conducting studies on vunrable people can be impractical and medical professionals WILL err on the side of caution if their is a concern) and people who's immune systems are so compromised that vaccines will not work for.
Secondly, if you do get sick, there is a pandemic in your community and the health system gets compromised then people will lose out. And remember, that most anti vaxxers aren't just advocating for themselves they are actively encouraging others to do the same and so is anyone else who want to spout the nonsense that vaccines are bad for you. There have been many recent pandemics around the world, in developed nations where enough people refused to get vaccines.

Ultimately prevention is better than cure and a S*** Ton better than treatment.

And (because I'm done with the whole discussion)....if you want to be part of a community and take advantage of everything it offers (childcare, schools, sporting matches and entertainment, a job) then you should act in the interest of the whole community. If you can't do that then you should F*** right off!!!

 

[Chip and Chase]

Man I can't wait till the footy starts - I'm not sure if my IQ is increasing or decreasing by reading some of the threads on here of late.

 

[Kevinward777]

I think it's a valid point, and especially so when you are talking about convincing people to take it. But I think it also important to remember the huge advances that we have made in healthcare in the past century. Thanks to this, you are far less likely to die from diseases now than in the past.
I couldn't find specific influenza data, but as influenza can lead to respiratory infection and pneumonia I think the following illustrates that point. I am making some assumptions here and it's not proof - but I don't think that there are many on here who would argue against the idea that access to improved healthcare reduces deaths dramatically.
View attachment 14443
So let's look at our current situation with COVID-19. The majority of people who have contracted it an fallen ill have or are not dying. But a problem occurs when the number of people who require medical attention surpasses what is available to a community. People are denied access and we go back to 19th century mortality rates.
Now, there will be people who will say that; "I'm willing to take that risk because I'm fit an healthy" But there are (at least) two big problems with that.
One, you may increase community transmission. And you need to remember that there are vulnerable people within the community who do not have the luxury of choosing between vaccination or not. There are some people who are considered to be at a high risk to receive vaccinations (mainly because conducting studies on vunrable people can be impractical and medical professionals WILL err on the side of caution if their is a concern) and people who's immune systems are so compromised that vaccines will not work for.
Secondly, if you do get sick, there is a pandemic in your community and the health system gets compromised then people will lose out. And remember, that most anti vaxxers aren't just advocating for themselves they are actively encouraging others to do the same and so is anyone else who want to spout the nonsense that vaccines are bad for you. There have been many recent pandemics around the world, in developed nations where enough people refused to get vaccines.

Ultimately prevention is better than cure and a S*** Ton better than treatment.

And (because I'm done with the whole discussion)....if you want to be part of a community and take advantage of everything it offers (childcare, schools, sporting matches and entertainment) then you should act in the interest of the whole community. If you can't do that then you should F*** right off!!!

Smallpox and Polio are two examples where Vaccinations have made the world a much safer place. The end result is unquestionable In both of those cases as the diseases have been almost eradicated. However, the flu shot is different in both it’s efficacy and the fact it is an ongoing annual vaccination. And we know, the strains they come up with each year are developed in the Northern hemisphere before our flu season hits.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

Smallpox and Polio are two examples of Vaccinations making the world a much safer place. The result is unquestionable In both of those cases, both diseases have been almost eradicated However, the flu shot is different in both it’s efficacy and the fact it is an ongoing annual vaccination. And we know, the strains they come up with each season are developed in the Northern hemisphere before our flu season hits.

You mean, because it mutates we need to come up with a modified vaccine to identify it each year!
Great, that sounds like another excellent reason to reduce the spread and with it the amount with which it can mutate.

The bigger problem here though, is that your saying; that because it doesn't work as comprehensively as other vaccines and because the flu won't kill as many people that we shouldn't bother. It's a giant FU to those who could be affected by it - and this doesn't just include deaths it's also businesses and the economy which could be far better off if people took more accountability for what they may be passing onto others rather than thinking only about how fit and healthy THEY are.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

Man I can't wait till the footy starts - I'm not sure if my IQ is increasing or decreasing by reading some of the threads on here of late.

Should I start a Sky Fairy one again ???

 

[Kevinward777]

You mean, because it mutates we need to come up with a modified vaccine to identify it each year!
Great, that sounds like another excellent reason to reduce the spread and with it the amount with which it can mutate.

The bigger problem here though, is that your saying; that because it doesn't work as comprehensively as other vaccines and because the flu won't kill as many people that we shouldn't bother. It's a giant FU to those who could be affected by it - and this doesn't just include deaths it's also businesses and the economy which could be far better off if people took more accountability for what they may be passing onto others rather than thinking only about how fit and healthy THEY are.

No mate I’m not saying FU to those who are most vulnerable... put the outrage cape back in the draw. Nor am I advocating for people not get the flu shot. Merely pointing out that IMO, there is an enormous gulf between those who choose not to vaccinate their kids against something like smallpox and people who who don’t get an annual flu shot.

 

[CollaroyJo]

I’m sorry to hear about your child and son in law. I hope they are both okay. Are they vaccinated against catching influenza?

Yes they certainly are.

 

[Kevinward777]

Yes they certainly are.

Good to hear, I hope your son in law gets better soon.

 

[yokahontas]

You mean, because it mutates we need to come up with a modified vaccine to identify it each year!
Great, that sounds like another excellent reason to reduce the spread and with it the amount with which it can mutate.

The bigger problem here though, is that your saying; that because it doesn't work as comprehensively as other vaccines and because the flu won't kill as many people that we shouldn't bother. It's a giant FU to those who could be affected by it - and this doesn't just include deaths it's also businesses and the economy which could be far better off if people took more accountability for what they may be passing onto others rather than thinking only about how fit and healthy THEY are.

Another big issue with focusing only on death rates is that you miss all the long-term, sometimes lifelong, complications and impairments people have to live with. If you get influenza and subsequently develop pneumonia, for example, you’re quite possibly going to be left with diminished lung capacity. COVID-19? Well, maybe you spend a couple of weeks in the ICU on a ventilator, then recover and eventually get discharged from hospital - maybe with permanent lung scarring, maybe with a limb or two missing after you developed sepsis, maybe with kidney failure requiring dialysis, maybe with sensory or motor deficits from the stroke you had. But all good, you’re testing negative to the ‘rona now, so you get taken off the ‘active’ cases list and added to the ‘recovered’ numbers. It’s still only the old people or the ones with underlying conditions being added to the death toll. Sweet.

 

[MuzztheEagle]

No mate I’m not saying FU to those who are most vulnerable... put the outrage cape back in the draw. Nor am I advocating for people to not get the flu shot. Merely pointing out that IMO, there is an enormous gulf between Those who choose not to vaccinate their kids against something like smallpox and people who who don’t get an annual flu shot.

OK, back up a bit. My previous post (the longer one) was reference to the fact that deaths could be significantly higher if we entered community epidemics which compromised health systems.
You countered this by downplaying my point and comparing influenza to smallpox and polio:

Smallpox and Polio are two examples where Vaccinations have made the world a much safer place. The end result is unquestionable In both of those cases as the diseases have been almost eradicated. However, the flu shot is different in both it’s efficacy and the fact it is an ongoing annual vaccination. And we know, the strains they come up with each year are developed in the Northern hemisphere before our flu season hits.

If not downplaying the effectiveness and meaning of the vaccine with this comment then what was your point?
I am attempting to have a rational and informed discussion with you, please do not attempt to win an argument (that we are not having) by claiming that I'm an outrage warrior.
And I don't think you would say FU to vulnerable people, directly or indirectly. But would you tell someone who has been affected by influenza that it's prevention is/was less important than smallpox and polio?