Anti-vaxx, masks, Covid, freedom, 5G etc

[MadMarcus]

I hate Souths, but surely since 1908 they have had better candidates than Asotasi to name an award after??

Surely with a name like “shoe” you are suggesting the obvious - they should have a Schlossy’s Shoe award for the ****tiest player in the team.

 

[Simonmyers11]

I haven’t seen many on here of late argue against arbitrary house arrest, mandatory face covering and the suspension of the principle of informed consent in medical practice, but as the tide is turning (at least a little in some places) and because I think it’s quite possibly the biggest consolidation of power by the billionaire class in my lifetime, I’ll put myself forward as an example of someone who would have been at the protest if I was home in Australia.

I’m not in Australia. I had a booked flight cancelled recently due to the new restrictions and I can’t get back right now even though I had decided to. I guess I’m one of the stranded Aussies.

The issue goes so deep and there are so many layers of misinformation out there on all sides of the argument, but a few points:

The hard data strongly suggests non pharmaceutical interventions have had little effect on the progression of the virus. Regions with strict lockdowns and universal mask mandates are very often not avoiding spikes in infections, hospitalisation and deaths and are in most cases comparable to non-lockdown, non-mask regions. Before this all began it was well known that surgical or cloth masks did little to contain respiratory illness in the general population at large. Somehow this got forgotten collectively around April or May last year.

In some cases strict lockdowns may delay the onset of a local outbreak but it always comes eventually, such as we are seeing now in Australia. Do we want to live indefinitely in a world where the authorities intermittently put their subjects under house arrest? Zero Covid is an illusion. Covid is not Polio. Covid is a respiratory illness, like influenza, rhinovirus and the 5 other strains of coronavirus currently in circulation. We’re being told more and more that the vaccines don’t prevent infection and transmission. Covid is endemic, we must live with it. Must we live with lockdowns as well?



And the measure of these outbreaks is primarily the PCR test. This test, even though it has been put to use for measuring ‘case numbers’ practically everywhere in the world, is not suitable for clinical diagnosis. The test includes a sensitivity setting called the cycle threshold which greatly changes the likelihood of acquiring a positive test. Too low, no positives, too high, too many positives. Before now it’s only been used in a research context or in conjunction with a clinical diagnosis to resolve conflicting diagnoses. In many cases a positive result could be people who are no longer sick, or are not contagious at all because they were exposed to a minute amount and their body already defeated it due to previous immunity, setting aside the likelihood of false positives. If we had measured any number of previous epidemics of other colds and flus in a similar way we would have seen a comparable ‘pandemic’.

Meanwhile hard data also shows that in the last 18 months the world’s ultra-rich have increased their wealth staggeringly, not merely unaffected by covid, but greatly benefitting from it. It’s also clear that public health officials and influencers who support the establishment line on covid have greatly increased their standing and wealth as well, many becoming celebrities in their own right. Meanwhile you might be unaware that numerous renowned epidemiologists and other scientists and researchers of standing, including those at the top of their field have disagreed with the establishment narrative and have suffered as a result, being censored and ridiculed by mainstream media pundits.

Some have said, in condemnation of the protestors, that the lockdowns cause great harm to people. In this you agree with the protestors. That is why they are protesting. Others have said, a minority may discredit the protestors, therefore they should avoid being associated with them. But this is not an easy fix. This is a problem faced by all mass movements. Agitators, agent provocateurs and just plain old kooks. The media will always tend to focus on this aspect if the message of the movement goes against the establishment narrative. This push toward “calling out” is an oppositional tactic that fractures the movement. It’s ok to disagree with someone but agree on a central point, for example, lockdowns are wrong.

I realise my thinking goes strongly against the majority that post on this forum. Don’t hate me. We all love Manly. I post this with trepidation because I hate getting into bitter arguments on the internet but I’m doing it because I just feel it’s important to make a counter narrative visible and to be true to myself, even if going against the herd can have repercussions.

Best wishes,
Phil

Thank you for posting a thoughtful argument against the governments stance and not just some absurd statement like the government is making everything up and its a conspiracy etc

I personally don't agree with you, but we have all different reasoning's for and against, and are all in this together.

The hard data suggests that the vaccine does not totally decrease the spread of the disease, and yes you can still catch it, but the severity of the side affects are not as severe! Deaths and patients omitted to ICU are not as high, this is fact. Why 9 out of 10 adults in the UK have had the vaccine and the country has been able to ease restrictions. Yes, you can still get the virus, still pass it on, but not as severe. More like getting the common cold, and eventually our bodies will build up an immune defense, although Im sure more vaccines will be made in future to help the mutated strain of the virus which keeps evolving.

Im not against anti vaxers, free choice. I am just uncomfortable with opening up everything right now until we have had the chance to get immunized and more vaccines are available. Government has dropped the ball on this big time! You might be ok with getting covid, but myself, my family, close friends are NOT ok with contracting the virus and potentially having severe side effects or worse dying. Its a deadly virus, and I stand by the lock-downs to try and control the outbreak until more of us are vaccinated, then the risks are not as severe. Hopefully we can return to a somewhat normal lively hood by next year like the UK has. Get back to enjoying our great country

 

[ManEagle]

But in this instance, the manner of the protest was irresponsible. I have no issues about anti-vaxers or anti restriction demos happening, even if I don't agree. That's democracy. But they should have found another way to protest, that didnt put people's lives at risk.

Just on this point, apparently the Perth protestors did so by car convoy with signs on the car and windows. Though I don't agree with the protest, when I saw this in comparison to the Sydney ones, I respected their choice to protest in a safe manner ( with covid safe consideration not road rule ) even though they aren't actually in lockdown like Sydney.

Sydney protest were just irresponsible trouble makers.

 

[Spartan Eagle]

Understood. But in this instance having a major demo unmasked is I believe irresponsible. As said this is a potentially lethal disease. I've discussed this matter with anti-vaxers I know and stated one of the primary reasons I wear a mask and take the vaccine is not only for my protection but for others I meet. I point out I don't want the responsibility of through my actions causing someone else to get the disease and possibly die.

Protests such as the Black Lives, Rights of Indigenous People, Rights of gay and lesbian people, certain laws that are discriminatory, maintaining our democratic rights etc where no one's safety is risked (except for those fools who incite violence) is fine. But in this instance, the manner of the protest was irresponsible. I have no issues about anti-vaxers or anti restriction demos happening, even if I don't agree. That's democracy. But they should have found another way to protest, that didnt put people's lives at risk.

You are playing politics. Both protests put lives at risk by contravening covid health regulations. 'Black lives matter' and 'the freedom march'. Yet the response to both is chalk and cheese.

Let me remind you that the tens of thousands of protesters that marched last year did not all comply by wearing masks etc..(see a just a few examples below) therefore putting others at risk by exposing them to this 'potentially lethal disease'.

Using your same logic the manner of the protest was irresponsible. So why aren't people angry and dobbing them in. Why wasn't a police task force put in place to identify them and fine them??

 

[Simonmyers11]

You are playing politics. Both protests put lives at risk by contravening covid health regulations. 'Black lives matter' and 'the freedom march'. Yet the response to both is chalk and cheese.

Let me remind you that the tens of thousands of protesters that marched last year did not all comply by wearing masks etc..(see a just a few examples below) therefore putting others at risk by exposing them to this 'potentially lethal disease'.

Using your same logic the manner of the protest was irresponsible. So why aren't people angry and dobbing them in. Why wasn't a police task force put in place to identify them and fine them??


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Main reason is we were not trying to control a much more contagious delta strain, we were not in lock down then, the infected numbers were a lot lot less, back then it was seen that being out doors was not as big risk, now we know the delta strain is airborne. These lock downs do nothing, accomplish nothing except put others at risk and extend the lock downs. Blatant disregard for others safety and are selfish c&nts. Hope they fine the lot of them

 

[manlyfan76]

Freedom is given away if cowards want safety for doing nothing.

Freedom is a struggle, I can't be against people for striving for it, I wish everyone was safe and healthy but not if it costs our freedom.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I haven’t seen many on here of late argue against arbitrary house arrest, mandatory face covering and the suspension of the principle of informed consent in medical practice, but as the tide is turning (at least a little in some places) and because I think it’s quite possibly the biggest consolidation of power by the billionaire class in my lifetime, I’ll put myself forward as an example of someone who would have been at the protest if I was home in Australia.

I’m not in Australia. I had a booked flight cancelled recently due to the new restrictions and I can’t get back right now even though I had decided to. I guess I’m one of the stranded Aussies.

The issue goes so deep and there are so many layers of misinformation out there on all sides of the argument, but a few points:

The hard data strongly suggests non pharmaceutical interventions have had little effect on the progression of the virus. Regions with strict lockdowns and universal mask mandates are very often not avoiding spikes in infections, hospitalisation and deaths and are in most cases comparable to non-lockdown, non-mask regions. Before this all began it was well known that surgical or cloth masks did little to contain respiratory illness in the general population at large. Somehow this got forgotten collectively around April or May last year.

In some cases strict lockdowns may delay the onset of a local outbreak but it always comes eventually, such as we are seeing now in Australia. Do we want to live indefinitely in a world where the authorities intermittently put their subjects under house arrest? Zero Covid is an illusion. Covid is not Polio. Covid is a respiratory illness, like influenza, rhinovirus and the 5 other strains of coronavirus currently in circulation. We’re being told more and more that the vaccines don’t prevent infection and transmission. Covid is endemic, we must live with it. Must we live with lockdowns as well?



And the measure of these outbreaks is primarily the PCR test. This test, even though it has been put to use for measuring ‘case numbers’ practically everywhere in the world, is not suitable for clinical diagnosis. The test includes a sensitivity setting called the cycle threshold which greatly changes the likelihood of acquiring a positive test. Too low, no positives, too high, too many positives. Before now it’s only been used in a research context or in conjunction with a clinical diagnosis to resolve conflicting diagnoses. In many cases a positive result could be people who are no longer sick, or are not contagious at all because they were exposed to a minute amount and their body already defeated it due to previous immunity, setting aside the likelihood of false positives. If we had measured any number of previous epidemics of other colds and flus in a similar way we would have seen a comparable ‘pandemic’.

Meanwhile hard data also shows that in the last 18 months the world’s ultra-rich have increased their wealth staggeringly, not merely unaffected by covid, but greatly benefitting from it. It’s also clear that public health officials and influencers who support the establishment line on covid have greatly increased their standing and wealth as well, many becoming celebrities in their own right. Meanwhile you might be unaware that numerous renowned epidemiologists and other scientists and researchers of standing, including those at the top of their field have disagreed with the establishment narrative and have suffered as a result, being censored and ridiculed by mainstream media pundits.

Some have said, in condemnation of the protestors, that the lockdowns cause great harm to people. In this you agree with the protestors. That is why they are protesting. Others have said, a minority may discredit the protestors, therefore they should avoid being associated with them. But this is not an easy fix. This is a problem faced by all mass movements. Agitators, agent provocateurs and just plain old kooks. The media will always tend to focus on this aspect if the message of the movement goes against the establishment narrative. This push toward “calling out” is an oppositional tactic that fractures the movement. It’s ok to disagree with someone but agree on a central point, for example, lockdowns are wrong.

I realise my thinking goes strongly against the majority that post on this forum. Don’t hate me. We all love Manly. I post this with trepidation because I hate getting into bitter arguments on the internet but I’m doing it because I just feel it’s important to make a counter narrative visible and to be true to myself, even if going against the herd can have repercussions.

Best wishes,
Phil

No need for trepidation, even though you are “going against the herd” (the great unwashed?) Your post is a bit of a manifesto but I’ll just comment on a couple of points.

You imply the pandemic is not too bad, you say “Covid is a respiratory illness, like influenza, rhinovirus…”

WHO says you’re wrong, it is not like the flu. It spreads really fast and kills a lot of people. Globally, as of 5:54pm CEST, 27 July 2021, there have been 194,608,040 confirmed cases of COVID-19, including 4,170,155 deaths, reported to WHO.

You seem to raise a civil liberty objection – “I haven’t seen many on here of late argue against arbitrary house arrest, mandatory face covering…”

So do you say civil liberties should never be curtailed? (no compulsory seat belts? No speed limits?) Or just not for this, because the pandemic really isn’t so bad?

You claim “non pharmaceutical interventions have had little effect”. WHO says masks and physical distancing are key measures to suppress transmission. Which is what I’ve been hearing consistently for 18 months! so if you deny this then again you should tell us what “hard data” you rely on

You claim “We’re being told more and more that the vaccines don’t prevent infection and transmission. Covid is endemic, we must live with it. Must we live with lockdowns as well?” Yes we are being told vaccines don’t necessarily prevent infection and transmission BUT they are very effective at preventing serious illness and death! Our population isn’t vaccinated, otherwise we probably wouldn’t need a lockdown!!

You refer to billionaires, I’m not a big supporter of billionaires I must admit. However the tenor of your post (unless I’ve misread it) is that the pandemic isn’t very bad, and there’s a worldwide conspiracy of medical and scientific experts to trick us about this, in reality it is a clever excuse for the rich to get richer and to curtail civil liberties…

If that’s not what you meant then please feel free to clarify. I agree with you that “there are many layers of misinformation” in circulation about COVID 19 and I think it is very important that misinformation is always challenged. If not we are left with, ‘oh well, who really knows, they are probably all half right”. Which I suggest is almost never the case.

One last point – you say you would have attended the protest, can I ask which of their demands you wanted to support? (genuine question, I’m not actually sure what they were calling for)

 

[Simonmyers11]

Freedom is given away if cowards want safety for doing nothing.

Freedom is a struggle, I can't be against people for striving for it, I wish everyone was safe and healthy but not if it costs our freedom.

People need to pull their ****ing heads in. We have been in lockdown for a few weeks, not locked up in a jail. I had friends that were in lock down in the Philippines for 9 months, were not even allowed outside, did not Interact with others for months, home schooled their 2 kids in a tiny little 2 bedroom flat. You think we have it bad? Please. The initial lock down were allowed to go shopping for clothes and jewelry , furniture etc. Hardly taking away all our freedom.

 

[Simonmyers11]

No need for trepidation, even though you are “going against the herd” (the great unwashed?) Your post is a bit of a manifesto but I’ll just comment on a couple of points.

You imply the pandemic is not too bad, you say “Covid is a respiratory illness, like influenza, rhinovirus…”

WHO says you’re wrong, it is not like the flu. It spreads really fast and kills a lot of people. Globally, as of 5:54pm CEST, 27 July 2021, there have been 194,608,040 confirmed cases of COVID-19, including 4,170,155 deaths, reported to WHO.

You seem to raise a civil liberty objection – “I haven’t seen many on here of late argue against arbitrary house arrest, mandatory face covering…”

So do you say civil liberties should never be curtailed? (no compulsory seat belts? No speed limits?) Or just not for this, because the pandemic really isn’t so bad?

You claim “non pharmaceutical interventions have had little effect”. WHO says masks and physical distancing are key measures to suppress transmission. Which is what I’ve been hearing consistently for 18 months! so if you deny this then again you should tell us what “hard data” you rely on

You claim “We’re being told more and more that the vaccines don’t prevent infection and transmission. Covid is endemic, we must live with it. Must we live with lockdowns as well?” Yes we are being told vaccines don’t necessarily prevent infection and transmission BUT they are very effective at preventing serious illness and death! Our population isn’t vaccinated, otherwise we probably wouldn’t need a lockdown!!

You refer to billionaires, I’m not a big supporter of billionaires I must admit. However the tenor of your post (unless I’ve misread it) is that the pandemic isn’t very bad, and there’s a worldwide conspiracy of medical and scientific experts to trick us about this, in reality it is a clever excuse for the rich to get richer and to curtail civil liberties…

If that’s not what you meant then please feel free to clarify. I agree with you that “there are many layers of misinformation” in circulation about COVID 19 and I think it is very important that misinformation is always challenged. If not we are left with, ‘oh well, who really knows, they are probably all half right”. Which I suggest is almost never the case.

One last point – you say you would have attended the protest, can I ask which of their demands you wanted to support? (genuine question, I’m not actually sure what they were calling for)

great post!

 

[manlyfan76]

People need to pull their ****ing heads in. We have been in lockdown for a few weeks, not locked up in a jail. I had friends that were in lock down in the Philippines for 9 months, were not even allowed outside, did not Interact with others for months, home schooled their 2 kids in a tiny little 2 bedroom flat. You think we have it bad? Please. The initial lock down were allowed to go shopping for clothes and jewelry , furniture etc. Hardly taking away all our freedom.

Why can you tell people to pull their heads in?
Are you more powerful than them?

 

[Simonmyers11]

Why can you tell people to pull their heads in?
Are you more powerful than them?

Because you'd rather let people get sick and die, instead of a few weeks with restrictions put on them. You would rather people be unsafe and unhealthy if it means more freedom. "Cowards want safety for nothing" F#ck You

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Freedom is a struggle, I can't be against people for striving for it, I wish everyone was safe and healthy but not if it costs our freedom.

Mate if you catch Covid then breathing is a struggle!

 

[manlyfan76]

Globally 24,600 people die everyday from starvation and related illness.

But nobody talks about that.

 

[manlyfan76]

Mate if you catch Covid then breathing is a struggle!

It sure is.
Doesn't make what I said not true.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

So what, we should all just commit suicide?

 

[Simonmyers11]

Mate if you catch Covid then breathing is a struggle!

People think they are immune to it, they think its the same as the runny nose they got last year. They change their minds when they are put in ICU, I wonder how they feel about the government services and hospitals then?

 

[manlyfan76]

Because you'd rather let people get sick and die, instead of a few weeks with restrictions put on them. You would rather people be unsafe and unhealthy if it means more freedom. "Cowards want safety for nothing" F#ck You

Everyone is going to die. This is a fact everyone should come to understand.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I think you need to specify what you are talking about. What 'freedom' in particular are you concerned about losing?

 

[manlyfan76]

So what, we should all just commit suicide?

I don't think you should but it is your choice not mine.
I think suicide is wrong.

I think you should live a life not exist a long time.
But if you want to do something about the way you live or die that's on you.

 

[Simonmyers11]

So what, we should all just commit suicide?

He would rather be allowed to go eat a steak a restaurant and wouldn't care if he passed on the disease that killed someone, as long as he has his freedom