Anti-vaxx, masks, Covid, freedom, 5G etc

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Feast yer eyes ..
Tipping Comp 2021
@philasophigas .. with respect, and I am not suggesting you would take any death lightly. but would you please answer a question for me ...

Given that there appears to be two largely disparate tactics suggested to tackle Covid .. (1) the Lockdowns method employed by Australia to avoid deaths and health resources over-load until vaccination numbers kick in ... and (2) No restrictions let it take it's course, and no curbing of freedoms ..

My question is, with a 3% fatality rate in Australia, our worst case scenario is 750,000 Covid related deaths ... how many deaths are you prepared to accept as a normal course of a pandemic in exchange for your freedoms ..?

Is there a middle ground ... I don't know, I do know that I would hate to be a decision maker weighing up the question I just asked ...

Just as a comparison .. Canada, with a slighly larger population but similar socio economic status has had over 20,000 deaths ... Australia 1000 ...
 
Sea Eagle Lach
Staff member
Premium Member
Tipping Comp 2021
I kind of feel guilty that I haven’t done enough to fight
It would be helpful if you would cut to the chase rather than write long posts that skirt around issues.

Clearly you think Covid 19 is not nearly as dangerous as scientists around the world would have us believe. You also don’t think the measures govts take are effective anyway. Got that (and I disagree, obviously) 😊

But this seems your chief concern : “the greatest corporate / authoritarian power grab in my lifetime”. Do you mean Covid is a conspiracy?

You say segregation is upon us, and ask if I am OK with segregation. My answer, no, and let me also answer some of your other questions:

“Can people be removed from social life?” Yes obviously, we have long had marginalised communities who are effectively excluded from the fruits of social life that most can enjoy.

“Can people be prevented from working to support their family?” Yes, obviously, have you never noticed that there is a permanent pool of unemployed, a reserve labour force??

“Can people be detained?” Scarcely deserves an answer, but Yes, and they are! Most shameful examples being asylum seekers that we keep detained for year upon year, out of sight.

So in return let me ask you: Obviously there are real fears over the currently emboldened neo-Nazis, fascists and various other far right groups, but how do you relate this to the pandemic???
If you believe the pandemic is a conspiracy to control the world’s population, please cut to the chase and just say so!!

If not, perhaps you’d consider answering the question I asked you a few days ago, namely: which were the demands of last week’s protesters that you support?
1627786940963.png
 
Sea Eagle Lach
Staff member
Premium Member
Tipping Comp 2021
And while I'm on a roll .. !!
Freedom of speech
Freedom of movement.
Freedom of health choice
When you say you you are concerned about these freedoms - , free speech, do you demand the freedom to incite racial hatred and violence? Free to falsely defame people? Free to spread lies and misinformation about anything and everything?
When you say freedom of movement, do you mean, unfettered? You can go anywhere you like?
Is that just you – or everyone?- So, no borders, no restriction on immigration. How about trespassing on anyone’s property? foreign armies can set up bases here?

In other words these slogans don't really shed much light on anything. Aren't they too broad, to the point of becoming meaningless?
OK, now what time does the bloody footy start...(!) :mad:@:mad::)
 
Touch football but with more injuries
Premium Member
And while I'm on a roll .. !!

When you say you you are concerned about these freedoms - , free speech, do you demand the freedom to incite racial hatred and violence? Free to falsely defame people? Free to spread lies and misinformation about anything and everything?
When you say freedom of movement, do you mean, unfettered? You can go anywhere you like?
Is that just you – or everyone?- So, no borders, no restriction on immigration. How about trespassing on anyone’s property? foreign armies can set up bases here?

In other words these slogans don't really shed much light on anything. Aren't they too broad, to the point of becoming meaningless?
OK, now what time does the bloody footy start...(!) :mad:@:mad::)
You do realise that foreign armies do infact have bases here and are expanding.

I'm not for telling fire in a crowded theatre as such but we should be able to discuss that act. Same with 5G towers causing covid, I don't believe it but not being able to discuss it I disagree with.

Like I've said everyone has a line in the sand, mine is in a different place to other's.
 
@philasophigas .. with respect, and I am not suggesting you would take any death lightly. but would you please answer a question for me ...

Given that there appears to be two largely disparate tactics suggested to tackle Covid .. (1) the Lockdowns method employed by Australia to avoid deaths and health resources over-load until vaccination numbers kick in ... and (2) No restrictions let it take it's course, and no curbing of freedoms ..

My question is, with a 3% fatality rate in Australia, our worst case scenario is 750,000 Covid related deaths ... how many deaths are you prepared to accept as a normal course of a pandemic in exchange for your freedoms ..?

Is there a middle ground ... I don't know, I do know that I would hate to be a decision maker weighing up the question I just asked ...

Just as a comparison .. Canada, with a slighly larger population but similar socio economic status has had over 20,000 deaths ... Australia 1000 ...
It's not 3% Woodsie. Show me a valid peer reviewed study that says so. I can show you study after study. The one I shared https://www.who.int/bulletin/online_first/BLT.20.265892.pdf is the best global study that attempts to qualify it. But there are plenty of others.

But let me answer your question.

Annual deaths in Australia are about 140,000. I wouldn't be concerned at all if 2 to 3% of those had a positive PCR test prior to death. Traditionally, those poor souls who are about to meet their maker tend to contract a respiratory illness or two at the end. So maybe 3 or 4 thousand a year?

Given the current climate this might sound cold but the sad fact is people die. The average age of people who die after having a positive covid test is about 82 years old. The age profile matches the general mortality age profile.
 
It would be helpful if you would cut to the chase rather than write long posts that skirt around issues.

Clearly you think Covid 19 is not nearly as dangerous as scientists around the world would have us believe. You also don’t think the measures govts take are effective anyway. Got that (and I disagree, obviously) 😊

But this seems your chief concern : “the greatest corporate / authoritarian power grab in my lifetime”. Do you mean Covid is a conspiracy?

You say segregation is upon us, and ask if I am OK with segregation. My answer, no, and let me also answer some of your other questions:

“Can people be removed from social life?” Yes obviously, we have long had marginalised communities who are effectively excluded from the fruits of social life that most can enjoy.

“Can people be prevented from working to support their family?” Yes, obviously, have you never noticed that there is a permanent pool of unemployed, a reserve labour force??

“Can people be detained?” Scarcely deserves an answer, but Yes, and they are! Most shameful examples being asylum seekers that we keep detained for year upon year, out of sight.

So in return let me ask you: Obviously there are real fears over the currently emboldened neo-Nazis, fascists and various other far right groups, but how do you relate this to the pandemic???
If you believe the pandemic is a conspiracy to control the world’s population, please cut to the chase and just say so!!

If not, perhaps you’d consider answering the question I asked you a few days ago, namely: which were the demands of last week’s protesters that you support?
View attachment 18877
Your honour. Permission to treat SER8 as a hostile witness?

I want to preface this by saying I respect you and your opinion. I believe strongly in your right to state your opinion as I hope you believe in that right for me.

You have failed to rebut a single one of my substantive arguments.

I have stated my thesis very clearly. A quote from the opening of my second post: “Having read your responses I’ll speak again against lockdowns, masks and medical coercion.”

You are trying to draw me in to speculative arguments about the motives of the agents that have the power to direct the course of events.

I think it may be because you hope I’ll argue in support of some ridiculous notion such as 5G causes covid or they are injecting microchips or the like. I won’t do that.

But are you wondering if I think there is an agenda?

As you suppose, of course I believe that. Furthermore I’m willing to discuss it I suppose if you like, but I want to be clear it should be a separate discussion, completely divorced from the fundamental argument over whether the interventions are warranted.

Because that discussion is mere speculation whereas we can debate the interventions on hard evidence. For your convenience we might frame the intervention discussion as me believing our authorities are making “mistakes”. There is no logical reason to bring the motives of our society’s decision makers into question when assessing the validity of lockdowns, masks and segregation. You will no doubt be able to see the logic of my reasoning here. If I am confidant of my reasoning as regards to the folly of intervention, why would I allow you to turn the argument toward discussion that is merely speculative?

You have made it clear in your response that you are a segregationist. I am most certainly not. I understand that as things stand your side of the argument is winning. That is why I’ve made the decision to speak out. I hope, if not for you, my words are having an effect on someone.
 
Feast yer eyes ..
Tipping Comp 2021
It's not 3% Woodsie. Show me a valid peer reviewed study that says so.

Interesting that you ask for a peer reviewed study as your benchmark for credibility .. I hope you apply that filter with all your research . ... but the publication of death rates is not study, nor peer reviewed, simply the governments data regarding total cases V fatalities ... no biggie ... and in Australia those numbers are currently running at approx 3% ... but even at 1% ... that is a lot of people meeting their maker

And yes, old people get old and die, I'm in the queue ... but the death toll in aged facilities once Covid spread shows the devastating effect it can have ... and here lies my issue with your view ... natural deaths are unpreventable ... dying a lot earlier from Covid is preventable.

And as old mate Serb likes to point out .. the number of much younger people presenting is becoming concerning ..
 
Let’s just talk about masks for a start

Where are the number of studies you reference? You sighted one study which was if nothing else quoted as not reporting on what you quoted (let alone the fact it is a singular source)

Happy to read the numerous sources you have quoted
In the public interest, if it helps with people becoming more informed......

Most Recent Mask Studies

Mask mandate and use efficacy in state-level COVID-19 containment

Are Face Masks Effective? The Evidence.

5 NIH/National Library of Medicine studies from 2004-2020 all finding verifiable health effects from wearing a face mask, including scientifically verified reduction in blood oxygen level:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29395560/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32590322/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15340662/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26579222/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31159777/

Cloth Mask Study

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/

SOME of the mask studies on efficacy:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20049528v1

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.30.20047217v2

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2749214

https://www.cmaj.ca/content/188/8/567

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5779801/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19216002/

https://aaqr.org/articles/aaqr-13-06-oa-0201.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420971/

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/65/11/1934/4068747

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bio/23/2/23_61/_pdf/-char/en

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01658736

https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/0195-6701(91)90148-2/pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2493952/pdf/annrcse01509-0009.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20200717141836/https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

https://www.nap.edu/catalog/25776/r...-masks-for-the-covid-19-pandemic-april-8-2020

https://www.nap.edu/read/25776/chapter/1#6

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/54/7/789/202744

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6599448/

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-1342

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00392-020-01704-y

https://clinmedjournals.org/article...ases-and-epidemiology-jide-6-130.php?jid=jide

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1130147308702355
 
@philasophigas .. with respect, and I am not suggesting you would take any death lightly. but would you please answer a question for me ...

Given that there appears to be two largely disparate tactics suggested to tackle Covid .. (1) the Lockdowns method employed by Australia to avoid deaths and health resources over-load until vaccination numbers kick in ... and (2) No restrictions let it take it's course, and no curbing of freedoms ..

My question is, with a 3% fatality rate in Australia, our worst case scenario is 750,000 Covid related deaths ... how many deaths are you prepared to accept as a normal course of a pandemic in exchange for your freedoms ..?

Is there a middle ground ... I don't know, I do know that I would hate to be a decision maker weighing up the question I just asked ...

Just as a comparison .. Canada, with a slighly larger population but similar socio economic status has had over 20,000 deaths ... Australia 1000 ...
G'day Woodsie

I hope it would be a given that none would be taking any deaths lightly. Here's some data that might provide more perspective, because that's what we need when navigating extremely complex issues such as this.

I'm with you re the decision making, I just hope the decision makers have good people giving them all the info.


VAERS Database

Here is a link to the US Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System Database

VAERS - Data

Below is a basic report I produced from the database (there are extensive report options, try it out). Note: it is a known phenomenon that there is 50-90% underreporting due largely to the voluntary nature of the system (search ‘VAERS underreporting’ to access the studies done on this).

1627798010775.png




So, in the approx. 6 months since the vaccinations started 38000 deaths, life threatening conditions, permanent disabilities and birth defects reported (10’s if not 100’s of thousands of other conditions).

If we extrapolate this out to 18 months (same time frame as COVID) then we would have 114000. And to account for the under reporting , even at a conservative 50%, we would then have 228000 of these very serious events in otherwise healthy people.

Consider approx. 600000 US COVID deaths and consider that 94% of the deaths involved serious comorbidities such as heart disease, cancer and Type 2 diabetes (very often related to obesity). We can conclude that there were 36000 deaths to otherwise healthy individuals.

For those interested here are a couple of the other databases

European Database

https://www.adrreports.eu/en/index.html

UK Database

Official MHRA side effect and adverse incident reporting site for coronavirus treatments and vaccines | Coronavirus (COVID-19)



The question to you Woodsie, as you do seem a reasonable bloke, is how many deaths and injuries to healthy people from a vaccine would you think would be an acceptable balance to deaths from COVID?

Pssssttt, I don't have that answer.
 
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I am starting to think you might be a troll - I already posted about a single source etc (also the fact that is no accepted etc)

And with that I will stop responding as it clear you either have an agenda or are not keen to actually justify your beliefs
The link I posted links to a page that has collated 10 separate studies that examine the effectiveness of face masks. All the information is referenced. I'm not a troll, I'm a regular concerned citizen. The situation is getting out of control. Only through education can we hope to turn the tide.
 
Freedom of speech
Freedom of movement.
Freedom of health choice

These are already gone under the "pandemic" orders are they not?

Freedom to take the piss out of a politician, do that now and you can be labelled a terrorist FFS.
Regarding Freedom of Speech

I think a large portion of this issue that has people complaining is about the wilful censoring of important information, to the extent that only the propaganda from the CIBSmsm is getting through to most people, unfortunately resulting not only in misinformed opinions but actually very very strongly held misinformed opinions, largely due to omission of information. Also, thousands of medical professionals have had their views censored. There is never any ‘conflict of interest’ disclosure by the entities providing the ‘reporting’, which if there was would surely open the eyes of even their most rusted on devotees.

For instance how many people have even heard of Dr Kary Mullis (inventor of the RT-PCR testing protocol) or Dr Robert Malone (inventor of the mRNA tech used in the experimental vaccines)?. You would think their views would be worth hearing wouldn’t you? And guess what they sure did have some things to say (RIP Dr Mullis, who died suddenly a couple of months after airing his views on the legitimacy of the PCR test for Covid).

We are not a communist society and free thinkers condemn disregard for civilised discourse such as arbitrary censorship.
 
Bencher
Regarding Freedom of Speech

I think a large portion of this issue that has people complaining is about the wilful censoring of important information, to the extent that only the propaganda from the CIBSmsm is getting through to most people, unfortunately resulting not only in misinformed opinions but actually very very strongly held misinformed opinions, largely due to omission of information. Also, thousands of medical professionals have had their views censored. There is never any ‘conflict of interest’ disclosure by the entities providing the ‘reporting’, which if there was would surely open the eyes of even their most rusted on devotees.

For instance how many people have even heard of Dr Kary Mullis (inventor of the RT-PCR testing protocol) or Dr Robert Malone (inventor of the mRNA tech used in the experimental vaccines)?. You would think their views would be worth hearing wouldn’t you? And guess what they sure did have some things to say (RIP Dr Mullis, who died suddenly a couple of months after airing his views on the legitimacy of the PCR test for Covid).

We are not a communist society and free thinkers condemn disregard for civilised discourse such as arbitrary censorship.
You seem to be all over it mate, thing is you just can’t help some people, it seems they would prefer to argue or re-present misinformation to appease their own views, however misguided or otherwise.
 
First Grader
Did I manage to get the first ever silvertails 'information is disputed' warning?

The masks information is disputed, I agree, although the evidence is pretty clear. Masks may have a very small impact on transmissibility. But it's something in the order of 5%... negligible, the data is clear as I explained and linked to a number of studies. No one rebutted my argument. They are not worth the annoyance and the critical social issue whereby masks hide ones facial expressions. The trade-off is too great, it’s dehumanising. Imagine kids in masks at school, learning to socialise, and they can’t see each other’s face. This is unforgivable. But there are a large number of public health officials saying they work, so it’s certainly disputed.

Love you're work!

The mortality is not really disputed. Not by any credible scientists or studies. Covid mortality estimates vary from about 0.5% to 0.1%. The study I linked is the most detailed and global. It’s a few months old but it’s not really ‘out of date’ as someone said. But if it was out of date, the fact is time is seeing the IFR consistently coming down, not raising. There are a few reasons:

For one, though treatments are somewhat of a taboo subject for some reason, never the less they have improved significantly since the early waves. A number of repurposed antiviral drugs have been found to be effective to reduce the likelihood of hospitalisation and death. Ivermectin for one but there are others. And critically, catastrophic errors from early waves are no longer being repeated, for example ventilating patients unnecessarily. Due to panic, in early waves, decisions were made to fully ventilate patients that might not have been so otherwise. Patients on ventilation are not sharing the air with their healthcare providers, but the process of ventilation causes extra stress on the lungs and can lead to worse outcomes and should only be used as a last gasp measure.

Secondly, the typical evolution of a virus strain is toward greater transmissibility but lower mortality. Natural selection demands this path for a virus to thrive. You don’t get much use out of a dead host. Covid seems to be following the typical path in this regard. Look everywhere around the world. The data is there for anyone to see themselves on the world in data or other similar sites. In later waves, the “cases” may go up to similar levels to earlier waves, but hospitalisations and deaths are far fewer.

Thirdly, testing has increased. Now most good studies take this into account. But if someone is trying to digest raw numbers and looking at deaths / cases. You have to take into account that in early waves, when the epidemic was probably at its peak (maybe not in oz due to being an island but to some extent) many positive cases went by undetected. Even in Australia it could have easily been 10x the cases last year. We just don’t know. We didn’t test the entire population.

Anyway, sorry if this pisses anyone off. Like I said I’m doing this to be true to myself. I kind of feel guilty that I haven’t done enough to fight against what I see as the greatest corporate / authoritarian power grab in my lifetime. SER8 made a quip evoking “gas chambers”. I never said that, but I would ask anyone reading this, at least draw your line in the sand. Segregation is upon us. Are you ok with segregation? Your call, I respect your decision. Can people be removed from social life? Can people be prevented from working to support their family? Can people be detained? There’s a few steps before we need to worry about gas chambers. But if we ever did get to gas chambers, it will certainly be too late for anyone to do anything. Once segregation really takes hold, will you be against it? Neutral? Or will you be the kind of person that actively supports it?

In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. – Nietzsche
 
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