A clean out is not the answer

[Wombat64]

I dont think anyone knew the meaning except me. Im the 1%

The 1% are bringing the world down man ........ death to the 1%

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

I've watched enough RL to know that clean outs don't work. Neither does sacking a coach.

Trench Robinson coached his side full of stars to a 15th place finish in 2016. He has won 3 premierships. Shane Flanagan has won spoons and a premiership. Brad Arthur keeps making the finals in spite of winning a spoon with the Eels. The Dogs have gone on a signing spree and haven't fired a shot with the alleged 'attacking genius' behind Penrith's GF appearance last year. There is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that a 'black and white' approach to running a club does not guarantee success, nor does it mean failure. There are too many shades of grey to simply approach things from a 'we are failing' so lets sack everyone and everything will be better tomorrow.

Blooding rookies, moving players into different positions, getting rid of stock, etc. is not going to change things. The problems we are having concern so many variables that one solution is not going to change overnight. This same squad can turn it around. Des can turn it around. This sort of thing happens in RL all the time.

Take a guy like DCE for example. He hasn't suddenly forgotten how to play RL. He captained QLD to a series win last year and played really well. The reason he is struggling and the reason our attack is faltering is because we have no 9. There is absolutely nothing for DCE or Foz to play off the back of at the moment, hence they look ordinary. We need deception around the ruck to hold up markers and generate quick play-the-balls, then you'll see DCE and Foz run into some form. Backrowers are also going to look pretty ordinary because they too require ruck speed to punch into holes off the halves on the edges. At the moment, there are no holes. The flow on effect is the errors and forced passes and desperate plays because things just aren't clicking in the middle. Then the confidence crisis kicks in and you just keep finding ways to shoot yourself in the foot.

To compound things, we have no Tom. He will be back though. If we had Manase, we'd be doing better in the middle. Maybe Lawton will help improve things around the ruck. There is hope. I've even seen Parker play well when things are going our way. He is no world beater but he can hold his own on a good day. Those good days will come again. We are just a team down on confidence and down on players in key positions and the flow on effect of that is evident in the first three weeks of our season.

Keep the faith.

Ok.... I have just checked the state of play as best as I can about the situation with our contracted players. This is what I was saying about it being impossible to move players on and make roster changes at the end of 2020 .... all of these contracts end in 2021: Jorge, Croker, Boyle, Sironen, Funa, Garrick, Jetski, Walker, Sipley and Parker. I ask just how was Des/club supposed to offload all those players and not wear a massive impost on our salary cap? This new game of "touch" started last year..... we were tied to the contracts we had. We were just caught with the game changing and most of the players signed until at least the end of 2021. Now that is a massive roster overhaul at the end of this year... with virtually all the players us "experts" on this forum believe should be moved although I would keep Walker and maybe Funa/Siro/Sipley. So between 6 and 10 players are gooorne at the end of the year. Those other 6 players are not a hope in hell of being offered a new contract. Signing Suli till 2022 looks like a really bad deal. Marty might also be on the move. Fainu.... I am guessing wont be available. I would almost bet DCE is also definitely gone in 2023 to the new Brisbane side. We will need a new half. Foran is gone at worst the end of 2022. You can blow up all you want about Des...... these contracts were for players playing a different game... a game pre 2020. These players were signed till the end of this year... we were stuck. Just how it is! Now the game has changed massively and at the end of this year our roster will look massively different. Des still needs to get Walker back at Centre, Cust at 9, Haumole in when fit etc etc. Players need to improve their effort massively. But this was/is our contract reality. I have been banging on about this and that I guessed it might have been the case. My research proves it is absolutely the case.

 

[Bring back the.... Biff?]

The 1% are bringing the world down man ........ death to the 1%

You saying i should be killed?

 

[Chip and Chase]

Ok.... I have just checked the state of play as best as I can about the situation with our contracted players. This is what I was saying about it being impossible to move players on and make roster changes at the end of 2020 .... all of these contracts end in 2021: Jorge, Croker, Boyle, Sironen, Funa, Garrick, Jetski, Walker, Sipley and Parker. I ask just how was Des/club supposed to offload all those players and not wear a massive impost on our salary cap? This new game of "touch" started last year..... we were tied to the contracts we had. We were just caught with the game changing and most of the players signed until at least the end of 2021. Now that is a massive roster overhaul at the end of this year... with virtually all the players us "experts" on this forum believe should be moved although I would keep Walker and maybe Funa/Siro/Sipley. So between 6 and 10 players are gooorne at the end of the year. Those other 6 players are not a hope in hell of being offered a new contract. Signing Suli till 2022 looks like a really bad deal. Marty might also be on the move. Fainu.... I am guessing wont be available. I would almost bet DCE is also definitely gone in 2023 to the new Brisbane side. We will need a new half. Foran is gone at worst the end of 2022. You can blow up all you want about Des...... these contracts were for players playing a different game... a game pre 2020. These players were signed till the end of this year... we were stuck. Just how it is! Now the game has changed massively and at the end of this year our roster will look massively different. Des still needs to get Walker back at Centre, Cust at 9, Haumole in when fit etc etc. Players need to improve their effort massively. But this was/is our contract reality. I have been banging on about this and that I guessed it might have been the case. My research proves it is absolutely the case.

That's all great, but every other side in the comp had players already contracted when the new rules came in. Most of those sides have managed to adapt, either through the skill of the individual players or through good coaching. Why have we struggled ?? It's not like they sprung this surprise just on Manly.

We just look like a side that is horribly out of touch, outclassed in the contest and lacking commitment to the game at hand and to each other. Can't blame that on rules changes. We like everyone else have had 8-9 months to get used to it.

We definitely need to cut loose some of those players that are off contract this year. Need to invest in some youth and start fresh. Is it a coaching issue ?? maybe, but we can't change that situation unless his KPI's include getting us to the finals this season.

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

That's all great, but every other side in the comp had players already contracted when the new rules came in. Most of those sides have managed to adapt, either through the skill of the individual players or through good coaching. Why have we struggled ?? It's not like they sprung this surprise just on Manly.

We just look like a side that is horribly out of touch, outclassed in the contest and lacking commitment to the game at hand and to each other. Can't blame that on rules changes. We like everyone else have had 8-9 months to get used to it.

We definitely need to cut loose some of those players that are off contract this year. Need to invest in some youth and start fresh. Is it a coaching issue ?? maybe, but we can't change that situation unless his KPI's include getting us to the finals this season.

Well I am not sure but I think we all agree Boyle Jetski Garrick Croker are not up to it - simply with this new game they just fall way below the standard required. I can't see how Des suddenly makes Boyle/Jetski quicker or make Croker quicker out of dummy half or makes Garrick better? If you recall the Garrick in 2019 - a "stud". The version now seems to have lost all self confidence. Sadly some players just lose it.. I think he has and no amount of coaching, cajoling etc will get that back with some players. I totally agree we need much better effort - we need players picked in the correct positions but those 10 contracts are killing us. Now I don't have time to research what other players in other sides contracts fortunately ran out in 2020 but the sad and unlucky/unfortunate reality was that these 10 were locked in until this year.

 

[KNUCKLES]

A clean out only works if you can replace with better players.

Riddle me this.

Who in their right mind would want to come to our system in 2022??

Our ONLY path is doing what Penrith did , recruit the best possible juniors we can , play them , learn to live with the losses in the hope that eventually they come good and gel as a team.

Its gonna be a few good years before that can happen..(SG BALL players come through) and even then no guarantees. We still have 2 more years of cherrys contract. 6 more of the turbo brothers.. I've almost written off the next two years as it is

 

[Tragic Eagle]

We lack courage and need do a Penrith and bring through our young talent. Conservatism has seen us fall to last.

 

[manly al]

And then to also add Marty to the list of players who probably will not be re signed or maybe moving on and his purported back ended last year contract of 800 k or so . Can only expect a bit of freight Manly "s way if this does eventuate so probably not a totally helpful windfall cap wise . Say if Manly were to not re sign 6 or 7 off contract players , what would that represent in actual or approximate contract value . Maybe some one plus mil [ if guys like Siro are included ] , not insignificant money but still have to fill a top 30 roster and still need some minimum contract players as well and probably not feasible to bring in many higher profile players at all . Maybe some promising juniors or development players [ and definitely hopefully Saddler ] and there is apparently some serious talent with the other Fainu brothers and others . Koula is apparently still on the books for next year so that is some consolation but he may be in line for an upgrade if he makes the step up soon and then a longer term deal in the offering . No big issue having essentially one third of a club"s salary cap directed to three elite players if those players are consistently available and playing to the high level expected or justifying the big money . Really need some type of a clean out but is going to have to be some pretty sound recruiting to still try and get a competitive and balanced squad for 2021 onwards . Again if a club;s big three are not available and performing well on a regular basis , probably still will be up against it .

 

[Brookie Bob]

I don't often agree with the dribblers on the Roar, but this post I agree with :

Spartacus
Roar Rookie
April 2nd 2021 @ 10:06am

I posted this comment last night late on the Live call forum after the game…
The Facts:
Possession: Manly 46%, Panthers 54%
Completion rate: Manly 78%, Panthers 85%
Time in possession: Manly 25:12, Panthers 29:36
Tackles Made: Manly 325, Panthers 307 * Manly defended 3 sets or 18 tackles more.
Errors: Manly 10, Panthers 8
Penalties Conceded: Manly 2, Panthers 3

IMO that isn’t where Manly lost it.

Missed Tackles: Manly 38, Panthers 23 (15 extra missed tackles)
Ineffective Tackles: Manly 20, Panthers 12 (8 extra ineffective tackles for Manly)
Tackle Breaks: Manly 23, Panthers 38 (15 extra tackle breaks for the Panthers)
Line Breaks: Manly 1, Panthers 9 (8 extra line breaks to the Panthers)
Post Contact Metres: Manly 439, Panthers 525
Offloads: Manly 7, Panthers 15 (8 extra offloads for the Panthers – over 2:1 ratio)
Kick Return Metres: Manly 159, Panthers 246

Defence and Manly’s lack of attitude, energy and communication in defence. Their inability to stop forward packs rolling forward or outside backs on kick returns are putting Manly behind the 8-ball. Clearly losing Fornua-Blake and Thompson and Taupau’s inability to step up to cover AFB is exposing Manly’s soft underbelly in the middle third and their weak edge defence as players are playing out of position or are simply not up to first grade IMO.

That said, in that form the Panthers would have put most NRL sides to the sword tonight.

 

[Brookie Bob]

I don't often agree with the dribblers on the Roar, but this post I agree with :

Spartacus
Roar Rookie
April 2nd 2021 @ 10:06am

I posted this comment last night late on the Live call forum after the game…
The Facts:
Possession: Manly 46%, Panthers 54%
Completion rate: Manly 78%, Panthers 85%
Time in possession: Manly 25:12, Panthers 29:36
Tackles Made: Manly 325, Panthers 307 * Manly defended 3 sets or 18 tackles more.
Errors: Manly 10, Panthers 8
Penalties Conceded: Manly 2, Panthers 3

IMO that isn’t where Manly lost it.

Missed Tackles: Manly 38, Panthers 23 (15 extra missed tackles)
Ineffective Tackles: Manly 20, Panthers 12 (8 extra ineffective tackles for Manly)
Tackle Breaks: Manly 23, Panthers 38 (15 extra tackle breaks for the Panthers)
Line Breaks: Manly 1, Panthers 9 (8 extra line breaks to the Panthers)
Post Contact Metres: Manly 439, Panthers 525
Offloads: Manly 7, Panthers 15 (8 extra offloads for the Panthers – over 2:1 ratio)
Kick Return Metres: Manly 159, Panthers 246

Defence and Manly’s lack of attitude, energy and communication in defence. Their inability to stop forward packs rolling forward or outside backs on kick returns are putting Manly behind the 8-ball. Clearly losing Fornua-Blake and Thompson and Taupau’s inability to step up to cover AFB is exposing Manly’s soft underbelly in the middle third and their weak edge defence as players are playing out of position or are simply not up to first grade IMO.

That said, in that form the Panthers would have put most NRL sides to the sword tonight.

The difference in post contact metres in particular is what is particularly upsetting. That's the 'effort and determination' statistic, not necessarily the 'pure talent or ability' metric.

 

[Rocky]

I don't often agree with the dribblers on the Roar, but this post I agree with :

Spartacus
Roar Rookie
April 2nd 2021 @ 10:06am

I posted this comment last night late on the Live call forum after the game…
The Facts:
Possession: Manly 46%, Panthers 54%
Completion rate: Manly 78%, Panthers 85%
Time in possession: Manly 25:12, Panthers 29:36
Tackles Made: Manly 325, Panthers 307 * Manly defended 3 sets or 18 tackles more.
Errors: Manly 10, Panthers 8
Penalties Conceded: Manly 2, Panthers 3

IMO that isn’t where Manly lost it.

Missed Tackles: Manly 38, Panthers 23 (15 extra missed tackles)
Ineffective Tackles: Manly 20, Panthers 12 (8 extra ineffective tackles for Manly)
Tackle Breaks: Manly 23, Panthers 38 (15 extra tackle breaks for the Panthers)
Line Breaks: Manly 1, Panthers 9 (8 extra line breaks to the Panthers)
Post Contact Metres: Manly 439, Panthers 525
Offloads: Manly 7, Panthers 15 (8 extra offloads for the Panthers – over 2:1 ratio)
Kick Return Metres: Manly 159, Panthers 246

Defence and Manly’s lack of attitude, energy and communication in defence. Their inability to stop forward packs rolling forward or outside backs on kick returns are putting Manly behind the 8-ball. Clearly losing Fornua-Blake and Thompson and Taupau’s inability to step up to cover AFB is exposing Manly’s soft underbelly in the middle third and their weak edge defence as players are playing out of position or are simply not up to first grade IMO.

That said, in that form the Panthers would have put most NRL sides to the sword tonight.

Yep we know this game is an arm wrestle (in theory anyway) and you have to build pressure at every point - whether thats defence, possession, quick play the balls, etc

A lot of the above has been disected and discussed on here, and the stats v the panthers back all of that up.

What I also see is the opposition kicker get next to no pressure on their 5th tackle kicks..its like they are at training and can put it wherever they like. However when its Manly's turn to kick, there is such pressure on DCE that he barely gets the kick away and we are on the backfoot straight away. Do others see this as well?

 

[Eagles4Life]

The difference in post contact metres in particular is what is particularly upsetting. That's the 'effort and determination' statistic, not necessarily the 'pure talent or ability' metric

I agree with you Bob. Our players are all lacking effort and determination. All of them. I can't see a single player in the team that would be satisfied with the effort and determination they have shown, across the first four rounds. Our players are not playing for their coach, their captain, the club or each other. The lack of effort and determination by the players, is the most upsetting element about our clubs situation to me. The Manly spirit of teams gone by has disappeared. Fortress Brookvale is now a running joke amongst the other sides. The "Battle of Brookvale" is now just a memory. Effort and determination, which was the hallmark of Manly teams until 2015, has been replaced by disinterest and an acceptance of mediocrity by the current playing group. I will always support the club, but I am really struggling to support the lack of effort and determination from our current team. Go Manly.

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

Yep we know this game is an arm wrestle (in theory anyway) and you have to build pressure at every point - whether thats defence, possession, quick play the balls, etc

A lot of the above has been disected and discussed on here, and the stats v the panthers back all of that up.

What I also see is the opposition kicker get next to no pressure on their 5th tackle kicks..its like they are at training and can put it wherever they like. However when its Manly's turn to kick, there is such pressure on DCE that he barely gets the kick away and we are on the backfoot straight away. Do others see this as well?

yes but still think DCE is too flat when taking the kick

 

[KNUCKLES]

yes but still think DCE is too flat when taking the kick

The whole backline stands to flat in attack.. look how deep the good teams play with good shape running on to the ball at speed

 

[maxta]

yes but still think DCE is too flat when taking the kick

This is where the good sides get momentum on the tackle 4 or 5 setting up for the kick....as in Murray winning a quick play and Reynolds kicking on the front foot giving more time for placement and execution

 

[Brisbane Tragic]

This is where the good sides get momentum on the tackle 4 or 5 setting up for the kick....as in Murray winning a quick play and Reynolds kicking on the front foot giving more time for placement and execution

yep and we aint going forward that is for sure - good analysis

 

[madmax]

We lack courage and need do a Penrith and bring through our young talent. Conservatism has seen us fall to last.

Mate I’ve been pushing that since the beginning of last year!!! Unfortunately it’s harder than pushing a soft $hit up hill. I’ve been arguing for Schuster, Koula, Saddler to be upgraded & given an opportunity but the only opportunity they’ll get is at another club. I guarantee Koula would be a breath of fresh air in our backline & honestly think he’s better than Saab! Schuster is only in the team because of injury otherwise he’d still be waiting. Sipley has always played well when given a chance yet the super coach prefers Boyle & Gosiewski! I’m hoping & holding my breath for this team sooner rather than later:
Tom
Saab
Walker
Suli
Koula
Schuster
DCE
Paseka
Lawton
Marty
Jake
Siro
Saddler
Res:
Cust, Keppie, Aloiai, Sipley

 

[KNUCKLES]

Mate I’ve been pushing that since the beginning of last year!!! Unfortunately it’s harder than pushing a soft $hit up hill. I’ve been arguing for Schuster, Koula, Saddler to be upgraded & given an opportunity but the only opportunity they’ll get is at another club.

So who do we have in the ranks that have big wraps on them.. mole, koula, weekes, tuitavake, s fainu, humphries, lawler, saddler, burbo, am I missing anyone? Will be interesting to see how many of them actually kick on in the NRL. Fingers crossed they all can with Manly

 

[madmax]

So who do we have in the ranks that have big wraps on them.. mole, koula, weekes, tuitavake, s fainu, humphries, lawler, saddler, burbo, am I missing anyone? Will be interesting to see how many of them actually kick on in the NRL. Fingers crossed they all can with Manly

Koula was chased & is still in the sites of Rugby Yawnion. He’s been outstanding in SG Ball etc. I believe he’s old enough & big enough to get a chance.

 

[KNUCKLES]

Koula was chased & is still in the sites of Rugby Yawnion. He’s been outstanding in SG Ball etc. I believe he’s old enough & big enough to get a chance.

And what position is weekes playing at the moment? Half?